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This puts Apple in a very tough spot. Last week, Tim Cook was questioned in an antitrust hearing re: Apple's anticompetitive practices (along with Jeff Bezos, M

This puts Apple in a very tough spot. Last week, Tim Cook was questioned in an antitrust hearing re: Apple's anticompetitive practices (along with Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, and Sundar Pichai). The spotlight is already pointing right at them, so any move they make here is going to be noticed by lawmakers. If they remove Fortnite from the App Store, Apple will probably be seen as the bad guy. After all, Epic is not taking anything off the top here; they make the same amount of money whether consumers choose to purchase through the App Store or through Epic's direct payment system. If they keep Fortnite on the App Store, they're going to need to make a rule change to allow alternative payment methods within apps. One of Apple's main defenses during antitrust hearings was that App Review applies rules fairly and consistently. If they don't change the rules, that argument falls dead in the water. Epic leadership knows that this is going to cause a firestorm. I'm happy that a large company with market power decided this was the right time to do this. I doubt Apple and Epic worked together on this; there's no way that this doesn't completely embarrass Apple and its App Store policies. It will be exciting to see how this plays out, but my bet is that this is going to lead to a huge win for Apple developers.

lifty 6y ago
I bet that Epic execs also talked behind the scene with other execs in the industry to garner support in case Apple cracks down hard on Epic and removes Fortnite from the app store. If more studios/developers join the cause, they can definitely apply big pressure on Apple.
- uncoder0 6y ago
  Many mobile games are built on unreal. They could make this an option for developers to simply 'turn on' in their mobile games built on their engine.
- kingbirdy 6y ago
  Fortnite is popular enough to count as "big pressure" all on its own. I couldn't find recent numbers, but as of 2018 they had over 100M installs and were doing over $1M/day in revenue[0] and by early 2019 they'd already done more than half a billion[1]. [0]: https://venturebeat.com/2018/07/30/fortnite-clears-100-million-downloads-and-160-million-in-revenue-on-ios-alone/ https://venturebeat.com/2018/07/30/fortnite-clears-100-milli... [1]: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-02-08-fortnite-ios-revenue-estimated-at-usd500-million https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-02-08-fortnite-i...
  - triangleman 6y ago
    Weird, I thought Fortnite was free to play. What could people possibly be spending money on? Edit: Also I thought Fortnite was a FPS. How can you play that on iOS?
    - kbr 6y ago
      They pioneered the "battle pass" model for cosmetic items, and their constant release of skins, dances, etc can create a lot of recurring revenue I imagine.
      - triangleman 6y ago
        Weird, on the one hand I'm thankful to hear it's not "pay to win" stuff, but on the other, wow that's a lot of skins and dances! Edit: Insert joke about Quantitative Easing here
        kbr 6y ago
        Yup, I think they definitely found the sweet spot for making revenue from games — offering players sweet returns if they keep playing (you buy the battle pass for 1000 vbucks, but you can earn back 1500 just from playing casually) while still keeping it relatively competitive and not "pay to win". They did host a $30 million world cup event after all :)
douglaswlance 6y ago
>If they keep Fortnite on the App Store, they're going to need to make a rule change to allow alternative payment methods within apps. That is already allowed. It's a common misconception.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  It is? For digital purchases?
  - samcat116 6y ago
    Amazon has a special exception for Prime video[0]. [0]: https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/1/21203294/amazon-prime-video-ios-in-app-purchases-iphone-ipad-apple-tv-change https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/1/21203294/amazon-prime-vide...
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      Right, and Epic doesn't. I think this hurts Apple's case if anything, because it means App Store rules do not apply equally!
    - joezydeco 6y ago
      It was an exception granted to streaming video apps starting back in 2016. Amazon Prime is just the newest entry. https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/1/21203630/apple-amazon-prime-video-ios-app-store-cut-exempt-program-deal https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/1/21203630/apple-amazon-prim...
- mrpippy 6y ago
  No, alternate payment methods are not allowed for selling digital goods.
- judge2020 6y ago
  This is only true for physical goods. Digital goods that will affect the app must go through in-app purchases.
gutnor 6y ago
I'm scared of that though. Although on one end I would like to buy my kindle books straight from the app and play xcloud games, I'm thinking of the dodgier companies. Right now I have little to worry about when I leave my kid playing a game, all the payment need to go through Apple or at least the offending app will not stay up for too long. I want Apple to be forced to come up with a fairer solution (eg: same api, but different payment provider) rather than being strong-armed into getting rid of the current protection from dodgy apps abusing dark ux pattern.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  All Apple has to do to fix this is allow sideloading. They don't need to change the App Store's rules—they can make them more stringent, actually—and you can set up your child's phone to block non-App-Store installations. Heck, Epic would probably cave and accept the cost to keep Fortnite in the App Store; they tried to go around Google Play, and it seemingly didn't work out.
  - alexeldeib 6y ago
    From the original article, this also sidesteps google play.
    - celticninja 6y ago
      I don't think that Google has the same requirements as apple, vis a vis, all payments need to go through apple app store, which includes subscriptions or coin purchases.
      - minhazm 6y ago
        They both have very similar policies. Why do you think Epic took Fortnite off of the Play store in the first place?
      - dogma1138 6y ago
        They do, the only difference is that unlike Apple Google just takes the money and gives the users nothing in return.
spanhandler 6y ago
As a user, I'm torn. I want to see enough pressure put on Apple that their app store cut is reduced, and ideally (though somewhat unrelated to this) the store experience for users improves. But I definitely don't want to see more stores or payment methods for digital goods on my i-devices.
- dannyw 6y ago
  I have no problems paying through a wide variety of payment processors on the web: Shopify, Stripe, PayPal, Braintree, Amazon, whatever. What’s the concern? All cards are zero liability, and you should be checking your statements anyway due to fraud risks.
  - marta_morena_25 6y ago
    It's not. That only applies to the US & Canada. In a lot of other countries it can be extremely difficult to impossible to do something in case of credit card fraud. Besides that, entering card info is a chore. Same as I don't want to signup for every app (which is solved by apple login mostly), I don't want to enter payment info for every app (and update it whenever the card expires lol).
  - spanhandler 6y ago
    It's nice to have one part of my life where I don't have to figure out who to ask for a refund if things go sideways, wonder how much of a hassle that'll be, and don't even have to think about whether a transaction is reasonably safe. Do I want that to be my entire life? No. But I'm very, very happy not to have to wade through a shady bazaar to pay for commercial software on my phone and tablet. I've got enough stress navigating private bureaucracy in the entire rest of my life. Having one that's very simple is nice. I don't want it to get less simple.
    - dageshi 6y ago
      You can have competition or you can have simple, you can't have both.
dpcan 6y ago
If Apple removes Fortnite from the app store, it'll become a class action lawsuit in my opinion. Kids have spent hundreds, maybe thousands, of dollars on vbucks on their phones. If you just take that away..... you owe some people some money.
- crispyporkbites 6y ago
  If it’s deleted from the App Store it will still be on their phones. Either way I don’t think there’s a legal precedent for a class action
  - Semaphor 6y ago
    > If it’s deleted from the App Store it will still be on their phones. But you won’t be able to update any more (unless that is via side-channel? I don’t know how mobile games work), which, for a multiplayer game, is as good as deleting it.
- djsumdog 6y ago
  I don't play Fornite. Can you access your same character/account on other platforms? (can you switch to PC or PS4)?
ihumanable 6y ago
I agree with most of your statement, but I have a question about this bit > After all, Epic is not taking anything off the top here; Apple and Google take 30% and they are giving a 20% discount if you pay directly, so isn't there a 10% difference that they would be taking "off the top"? Or am I missing something?
- Cu3PO42 6y ago
  That 30% includes payment processing. Taking into account the probably relatively high chargeback rate (I'm thinking of kids using their parents' card), that might make up for 5% or more. So they may be taking a little off the top, but not a ludicrous amount.
- dageshi 6y ago
  I think it would be a rough percentage that covers credit card fees in most circumstances. Perhaps they are making some small percentage but it's probably closer to 5%?
- haraldurt 6y ago
  The percentages aren't quite additive like that. Say Epic gets $1 per sale, and the consumer pays $1.3 with the 30% Apple cut. A discount of ~23% (1/1.3) gets the sale price back down to $1. Include chargebacks and such for the missing ~2%.
pjmlp 6y ago
It is already gone from the store.
- GeneralTspoon 6y ago
  Woah - so it is! I'm glad Epic are giving this issue so much publicity - I think consumers seeing the pricing effects of the 30% App Store/Play Store cut is the only way to get people to care about this stuff.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    I on the other hand think that Epic and others have no reason to complain, if they had to give the slices that Vodafone, O2, and many other European operator managed stores used to ask for j2ME, Symbian and ringtones, then yes they would have such reason.

lifty 6y ago

I bet that Epic execs also talked behind the scene with other execs in the industry to garner support in case Apple cracks down hard on Epic and removes Fortnite from the app store. If more studios/developers join the cause, they can definitely apply big pressure on Apple.

uncoder0 6y ago
Many mobile games are built on unreal. They could make this an option for developers to simply 'turn on' in their mobile games built on their engine.
kingbirdy 6y ago
Fortnite is popular enough to count as "big pressure" all on its own. I couldn't find recent numbers, but as of 2018 they had over 100M installs and were doing over $1M/day in revenue[0] and by early 2019 they'd already done more than half a billion[1]. [0]: https://venturebeat.com/2018/07/30/fortnite-clears-100-million-downloads-and-160-million-in-revenue-on-ios-alone/ https://venturebeat.com/2018/07/30/fortnite-clears-100-milli... [1]: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-02-08-fortnite-ios-revenue-estimated-at-usd500-million https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-02-08-fortnite-i...
- triangleman 6y ago
  Weird, I thought Fortnite was free to play. What could people possibly be spending money on? Edit: Also I thought Fortnite was a FPS. How can you play that on iOS?
  - kbr 6y ago
    They pioneered the "battle pass" model for cosmetic items, and their constant release of skins, dances, etc can create a lot of recurring revenue I imagine.
    - triangleman 6y ago
      Weird, on the one hand I'm thankful to hear it's not "pay to win" stuff, but on the other, wow that's a lot of skins and dances! Edit: Insert joke about Quantitative Easing here
      - kbr 6y ago
        Yup, I think they definitely found the sweet spot for making revenue from games — offering players sweet returns if they keep playing (you buy the battle pass for 1000 vbucks, but you can earn back 1500 just from playing casually) while still keeping it relatively competitive and not "pay to win". They did host a $30 million world cup event after all :)

douglaswlance 6y ago

>If they keep Fortnite on the App Store, they're going to need to make a rule change to allow alternative payment methods within apps. That is already allowed. It's a common misconception.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago
It is? For digital purchases?
- samcat116 6y ago
  Amazon has a special exception for Prime video[0]. [0]: https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/1/21203294/amazon-prime-video-ios-in-app-purchases-iphone-ipad-apple-tv-change https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/1/21203294/amazon-prime-vide...
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    Right, and Epic doesn't. I think this hurts Apple's case if anything, because it means App Store rules do not apply equally!
  - joezydeco 6y ago
    It was an exception granted to streaming video apps starting back in 2016. Amazon Prime is just the newest entry. https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/1/21203630/apple-amazon-prime-video-ios-app-store-cut-exempt-program-deal https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/1/21203630/apple-amazon-prim...
mrpippy 6y ago
No, alternate payment methods are not allowed for selling digital goods.
judge2020 6y ago
This is only true for physical goods. Digital goods that will affect the app must go through in-app purchases.

gutnor 6y ago

I'm scared of that though. Although on one end I would like to buy my kindle books straight from the app and play xcloud games, I'm thinking of the dodgier companies. Right now I have little to worry about when I leave my kid playing a game, all the payment need to go through Apple or at least the offending app will not stay up for too long. I want Apple to be forced to come up with a fairer solution (eg: same api, but different payment provider) rather than being strong-armed into getting rid of the current protection from dodgy apps abusing dark ux pattern.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago
All Apple has to do to fix this is allow sideloading. They don't need to change the App Store's rules—they can make them more stringent, actually—and you can set up your child's phone to block non-App-Store installations. Heck, Epic would probably cave and accept the cost to keep Fortnite in the App Store; they tried to go around Google Play, and it seemingly didn't work out.
- alexeldeib 6y ago
  From the original article, this also sidesteps google play.
  - celticninja 6y ago
    I don't think that Google has the same requirements as apple, vis a vis, all payments need to go through apple app store, which includes subscriptions or coin purchases.
    - minhazm 6y ago
      They both have very similar policies. Why do you think Epic took Fortnite off of the Play store in the first place?
    - dogma1138 6y ago
      They do, the only difference is that unlike Apple Google just takes the money and gives the users nothing in return.

spanhandler 6y ago

As a user, I'm torn. I want to see enough pressure put on Apple that their app store cut is reduced, and ideally (though somewhat unrelated to this) the store experience for users improves. But I definitely don't want to see more stores or payment methods for digital goods on my i-devices.

dannyw 6y ago
I have no problems paying through a wide variety of payment processors on the web: Shopify, Stripe, PayPal, Braintree, Amazon, whatever. What’s the concern? All cards are zero liability, and you should be checking your statements anyway due to fraud risks.
- marta_morena_25 6y ago
  It's not. That only applies to the US & Canada. In a lot of other countries it can be extremely difficult to impossible to do something in case of credit card fraud. Besides that, entering card info is a chore. Same as I don't want to signup for every app (which is solved by apple login mostly), I don't want to enter payment info for every app (and update it whenever the card expires lol).
- spanhandler 6y ago
  It's nice to have one part of my life where I don't have to figure out who to ask for a refund if things go sideways, wonder how much of a hassle that'll be, and don't even have to think about whether a transaction is reasonably safe. Do I want that to be my entire life? No. But I'm very, very happy not to have to wade through a shady bazaar to pay for commercial software on my phone and tablet. I've got enough stress navigating private bureaucracy in the entire rest of my life. Having one that's very simple is nice. I don't want it to get less simple.
  - dageshi 6y ago
    You can have competition or you can have simple, you can't have both.

dpcan 6y ago

If Apple removes Fortnite from the app store, it'll become a class action lawsuit in my opinion. Kids have spent hundreds, maybe thousands, of dollars on vbucks on their phones. If you just take that away..... you owe some people some money.

crispyporkbites 6y ago
If it’s deleted from the App Store it will still be on their phones. Either way I don’t think there’s a legal precedent for a class action
- Semaphor 6y ago
  > If it’s deleted from the App Store it will still be on their phones. But you won’t be able to update any more (unless that is via side-channel? I don’t know how mobile games work), which, for a multiplayer game, is as good as deleting it.
djsumdog 6y ago
I don't play Fornite. Can you access your same character/account on other platforms? (can you switch to PC or PS4)?

ihumanable 6y ago

I agree with most of your statement, but I have a question about this bit > After all, Epic is not taking anything off the top here; Apple and Google take 30% and they are giving a 20% discount if you pay directly, so isn't there a 10% difference that they would be taking "off the top"? Or am I missing something?

Cu3PO42 6y ago
That 30% includes payment processing. Taking into account the probably relatively high chargeback rate (I'm thinking of kids using their parents' card), that might make up for 5% or more. So they may be taking a little off the top, but not a ludicrous amount.
dageshi 6y ago
I think it would be a rough percentage that covers credit card fees in most circumstances. Perhaps they are making some small percentage but it's probably closer to 5%?
haraldurt 6y ago
The percentages aren't quite additive like that. Say Epic gets $1 per sale, and the consumer pays $1.3 with the 30% Apple cut. A discount of ~23% (1/1.3) gets the sale price back down to $1. Include chargebacks and such for the missing ~2%.

pjmlp 6y ago

It is already gone from the store.

GeneralTspoon 6y ago
Woah - so it is! I'm glad Epic are giving this issue so much publicity - I think consumers seeing the pricing effects of the 30% App Store/Play Store cut is the only way to get people to care about this stuff.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  I on the other hand think that Epic and others have no reason to complain, if they had to give the slices that Vodafone, O2, and many other European operator managed stores used to ask for j2ME, Symbian and ringtones, then yes they would have such reason.