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A New Chapter for PyPy
- sgillen 6y agoI’m not familiar with the situation, but I guess this means the pypy team can try to monetize the project somehow now?
- pyuser583 6y agoReminds me of the tweets by Jeff and Mackenzie Besos announcing their divorce: super happy and optimistic, but containing no information at all.
- fnord123 6y agoBesos means kisses in Spanish. What a cute name!
- mkl 6y agoIt's a typo of Bezos. Bezos may be Spanish in origin though, as it's the surname of his Cuban adoptive father.
- agustif 6y agoYeah Jeff came on vacation to spain and found a distant relative called Bezos too in a small town nearby our capital. I think he paid them a visit, seen on local tv. LOL source in spanish: https://www.abc.es/sociedad/20130810/abci-jeff-bezos-villafrechos-amazon-201308101127.html https://www.abc.es/sociedad/20130810/abci-jeff-bezos-villafr...
- adonese 6y agoit is quite similar to the Arabic word بوس (Baus). I did some wiki search and found it originates from the latin word beso[1]. Languages are so awesome! [1]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/beso https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/beso
- unexpected 6y agoI mean, why should the general public have information about their divorce at all?
- Animats 6y agoPyPy will remain a free and open source project, but the community's structure and organizational underpinnings will be changing and the PyPy community will be exploring options outside of the charitable realm for its next phase of growth ("charitable" in the legal sense -- PyPy will remain a community project). In other words, volunteers can contribute but others get to monetize? People like you helping people like us help ourselves - Processed World.
- no_wizard 6y agoIn essence these projects live and die with funding. Donations just aren’t enough to pay the bills for full time developers there isn’t any real alternative. I wish there was more corporate giving to foundations that could handle this sort of thing but we never built that culture in software unfortunately. I don’t think it’s fair to frame this negatively at all, really misses the nuance of these situations
- R0b0t1 6y agoI do think he captured it quite well -- that they are leaving it as a community project but only directly monetizing it for some people feels, well, wrong? It might be more neutral if they allocate funds for bounties and let anyone claim them, with the core developers obviously being able to address most bounties the fastest.
- ed_elliott_asc 6y agoImagine that your main source of income is trying to implement something faster than some random person on the internet - that wouldn’t be fun. What if you work on something but just before you finish someone else submits the same code. What if their code is bug ridden but gets the bounty, that would be frustrating.
- pjmlp 6y agoAlternatively FOSS generation could pay for their tools instead of expecting free beer everywhere, then such projects wouldn't need these kind of gymnastics.
- riffraff 6y agoIs anyone here using pypy for their daily job? What do you use it for?
- laurencerowe 6y agoFor algorithmic code PyPy can provide substantial speedups over CPython. I've used PyPy in code fingerprinting large bioinformatics files and seen big speedups. I've also tried porting a webapp processing JSON from CPython and seen no perceptible speedup.
- red2awn 6y agoThe JSON library is probably a C-extension so PyPy won't make it any faster.
- laurencerowe 6y agoIt's a long time since I looked, but profiling my code not much time was spent parsing / serializing JSON. Most of the time spent was manipulating dicts/lists in Python which cPython is already pretty good at since the whole language seems to basically be implemented in terms of dicsts. I don't think PyPy has the hidden class optimizations of JS engines which are able to find speedups in these types of cases.
- nealmcb2 6y agoApparently that isn't always the case. See the PyPy Status Blog: PyPy's new JSON parser https://morepypy.blogspot.com/2019/10/pypys-new-json-parser.html https://morepypy.blogspot.com/2019/10/pypys-new-json-parser.... which talks about being more efficient with both deserialization and memory.
- aldanor 6y agoFor algorithmic/numerical code, especially if you have to deal with numpy-related data, Numba has a much easier barrier for entry, plus you remain with cpython while speeding up computation-intensive code by a few orders of magnitude.
- dwheeler 6y agoWeird. There is no information on what they are changing to, only what they are changing from. I would like to see what they plan to do instead.
- fijal 6y agoThat will likely be the contents of the next blog post
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- apendleton 6y agoI've had great success with using pypy in production, but found that it was sometimes tricky to figure out how to fully leverage the performance wins on the table, especially if the regular way you might do a thing in cpython depended on a C extension that was either unsupported on pypy, or supported but slow. I could imagine a real demand for people with the specialized expertise necessary to do this for commercial customers, so I wonder if the plan here is for pypy be funded by this kind of consulting, and maybe exist under an entity that can make that happen (i.e., that's allowed to do for-profit consulting work)?
- acdha 6y agoThat’s what I’d guess at, something like Red Hat: you pay us for support & consulting for OSS work you don’t want to have in-house developers for.
- fxtentacle 6y agoI'm surprised that they didn't mention numba.jit, which solves the same basic problem as pypy (faster numpy calculations) but in a different way that is easier to mix with existing python frameworks. For example, TensorFlow with numba preprocessing is easy, just install both packages and it'll work. TensorFlow with pypy requires a 5 hour compile and 40 GB of temporary storage. Plus some source code fiddling inside TF, if I remember correctly. Even as an open source project, pypy should honestly consider who they're competing with for users and funding.
- nhumrich 6y agoi don't think pypy is a numba.jit "competitor". Most people I know who use it, use it for pure python things, typically web servers, and nothing to do with machine learning or data science.
- oefrha 6y agoPyPy is targeted at general purpose workloads, NumPy support is totally an afterthought, so the basic problem it set out to solve was/is definitely not faster numpy calculations. Numba on the other hand is way more targeted at numeric workloads. Besides, I don't see why they should mention any other project in a post announcing their departure from the Conservancy. The only surprising thing is no mention of the funding model they're moving to, other than a rather vague hint, "exploring options outside of the charitable realm".
- ed_elliott_asc 6y agoIf someone announces that they are exploring options then they are told “not enough info” If someone explores other options then announces changes they are told “should have said they were exploring options”
- oefrha 6y agoUsually people explore other options before cutting off the current lifeline.
- 6y ago
- rurban 6y agoWeird that Simon Cross completely lost us here. He normally can write meaningful stuff. See e.g. http://hodgestar.za.net/blog/ http://hodgestar.za.net/blog/ "All good things must come to an end". No, they don't.
- rurban 6y agoOn the other hand, this is a good explanation: https://sfconservancy.org/news/2020/aug/12/pypy-transition/ https://sfconservancy.org/news/2020/aug/12/pypy-transition/
- asah 6y ago$220,000 over nine years for multiple developers. Ouch.
- staz 6y agoSomeone responded anonymously in the comments : > @intgr the wind-down with the SFC hasn't been smooth and this is the politically-neutral, agreed-by-both-parties post. PyPy remains the same free and open-source project. Essentially we just switched to a different money-handler. We're announcing it in the next blog post.
- pansa2 6y agoFrom pmatti’s comment at https://old.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/i8ksfc/a_new_chapter_for_pypy/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/i8ksfc/a_new_chapte...: > PyPy core dev here. PyPy will always remain free and open source. No worries there. The question we and many other open source projects are trying to deal with is how to fund our developers under that constraint. We felt that it was time to explore other alternatives.
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- m4r35n357 6y agoArticle is a complete waste of time. Avoid.
- satisfaction 6y agoThey likely mean that there will always be a project called "PyPy" that will be free software but they will move to an open core model and introduce "PyPyPro" where are the cutting edge development will take place, PyPy may or may not be crippled.
- humanistbot 6y agoSo I have no direct knowledge of this case, but this seems to be an issue over fiscal sponsorship. Like a lot of smaller and younger open source projects, PyPy had delegated financial and accounting responsibility to the Software Freedom Conservancy, who acts as their fiscal sponsor. SFC is a registered non-profit with professional accountants, taking donations on behalf of lots of projects including PyPy and distributing it to the project on request from the project's leaders. This is a common model in open source, there are similar organizations that do this like Software in the Public Interest, NumFocus, or the Open Source Collective. One issue that happens is when fiscal sponsors take a cut on all revenue/donations raised by the project in exchange for their services, which is 10% for SFC [1]. Fiscal sponsors also have policies around what they will reimburse, which can become as stringent and as corporate travel policies [2]. I can totally understand a project getting frustrated at their fiscal sponsor and wanting to either start their own and do it all themselves or find another sponsor. [1] https://sfconservancy.org/projects/apply/ https://sfconservancy.org/projects/apply/ [2] https://sfconservancy.org/projects/policies/conservancy-travel-policy.html https://sfconservancy.org/projects/policies/conservancy-trav...
- jamesdutc 6y agoThe admin fees you refer to are typically assessed in the context of large, institutional grants. These are grants from private organisations like the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, or government agencies like the US National Science Foundation. These grants have significant financial accounting requirements. There are also many other legal or operational costs associated with these grants. When projects run these grants through parent institutions like universities, the typical admin fee is >40%. In some cases, it can be as high as 60%. Many projects are eager to enter fiscal sponsorship agreements with organisations like NumFOCUS, because so much more of their grant money goes to funding the work. In the case of NumFOCUS, admin fees do not adequately cover the staff requirements to manage these grants. NumFOCUS "loses money" when servicing the administrative needs of these grants & it takes this responsibility onto itself solely for the betterment of the projects. Rather than assess administrative fees similar to universities, NumFOCUS uses its other fundraising—corporate donations, event (i.e., PyData) sponsorship, individual giving—to finance its operations. source: - I serve on the NumFOCUS board of directors as its co-chair. - I presented on this topic last year at the NumFOCUS Annual Summit to an audience of core developers from projects like Julia, Jupyter, Pandas, NumPy, AstroPy, &c. - NumFOCUS budgets are public, and all of the above information can be corroborated from materials published on https://numfocus.org/ https://numfocus.org/
- mwcampbell 6y agoI think funding of ambitious open-source projects such as PyPy will continue to be a problem as long as these projects use pushover (a.k.a. permissive) licenses such as the MIT license. It's time for these developers to take a stand for what is fair, by relicensing to a copyleft license such as Parity [1] and selling proprietary licenses to companies that can and should pay. [1]: https://paritylicense.com/ https://paritylicense.com/ (not affiliated, I just think it's a good and fair license)
- tbenst 6y agoCould someone explain key differences between Parity and GPL? I haven’t encountered this before
- entropicdrifter 6y agoI'm far from an expert on this, so other commenters please correct me if I'm wrong: GPL requires that any project that uses a GPL project as a part of it must also be free and open source. It looks like Parity requires that you pay a licensing fee to the original creator of the Parity licensed project if you're using it for non-open-source reasons. So, it can be used for private/for-profit projects, but you have to pay for it in that case, whereas open source projects can use the code for free.
- infogulch 6y agoHow is that different from just licensing as GPL, and offering to purchase a dual license for private projects?
- deliveryboyman 6y agoWhere do you see the part in the license that discusses a licensing fee?
- chriswarbo 6y agoI've not heard of this license before, and a search for "parity" comes up empty on https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html and https://opensource.org/licenses/alphabetical https://opensource.org/licenses/alphabetical so it's not Free Software or Open Source. It might be free software or open source (i.e. in spirit), but I don't have the patience to read potentially-dubious licenses (that's what the FSF and OSI are for!)