7 ms·

> Bad programmers worry about the code And yet, I see a whole swath of the industry hyper-focused on various linters/styling/rules.

Koshkin 6y ago
And that’s because it’s Bad Programmers who need help!
- rapind 6y ago
  ... and "rules" for programming.
- mgkimsal 6y ago
  but... they need help on data structures/relations and up front thinking about those issues, not where curly braces should go, or tabs-v-spaces.
  - wvenable 6y ago
    That stuff is hard! Better to just shove your data somewhere unstructured and then you don't have to worry about data structures and relations.
  - Benjammer 6y ago
    Right, because the hyper-focus on linting of the industry is the symptom here, it's not a misguided treatment for the underlying problem of bad programmers.
rumanator 6y ago
> And yet, I see a whole swath of the industry hyper-focused on various linters/styling/rules. It seems to me that what you're actually seeing is an entire industry trying to eliminate all code-related issues, specially bike-shedding ones. This is patently obvious to anyone who was forced to waste their time in code review iterations discussing, say, where a brace should go and how many spaces someone should have added.
- s17n 6y ago
  Nobody was ever "forced to waste their time" on this stuff. I have a simple rule - I don't comment on other people's style, and if people comment on my style, I just go with their suggestions. Problem solved.
  - ses1984 6y ago
    You've never been on a team with two people with opposing opinions I guess.
    - Quekid5 6y ago
      Just out of morbid curiosity... have you actually experienced multiple 'seniors' giving conflicting code review comments about code style (of all things)? That sounds quite dysfunctional. (EDIT: Sure, nitpicks may differ, but...)
      - ses1984 6y ago
        Style yes, formatting no. Worked with two developers who endlessly argued whether or not we should handle a certain bit of complexity in a certain layer or the next layer over, so we ended up handling it in both layers with the downsides of both.
      - rumanator 6y ago
        > That sounds quite dysfunctional. No,it doesn't. It sounds like the expected outcome of not enforcing an established style with automated tools. All it takes is someone posting a merge request with a bracket out of place, or tabs instead of spaces which screws layout because yes IDEs have custom definitions and a dude happened to have opened a source file with an editor that wasn't properly configured. Boom, merge request receives two comments pointing out the bracket and how indentation is off. Congrats, about 20 minutes of your team's day are wasted because that's the time it takes to receive feedback from the merge request, be briefed on the remarks, go through the code and fix whitespaces, commit your change, push those changes, update the merge request, and wait for a team member to review your update. No drama. No dysfunctional team. No disagreement, even. But those 20 minutes of your life are lost forever.
burke 6y ago
Bad programmers inflicting their worry upon the others.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
furyofantares 6y ago
> > Bad programmers worry about the code > And yet, I see a whole swath of the industry hyper-focused on various linters/styling/rules. I've come to a severe distaste for this good programmer/bad programmer mentality I've seen on the internet for, I guess decades now There is skill in programming, yes, obviously. But this simplistic divide seems to me to be more about putting one's own ego on the superior side. It leads to simplistic heuristics and flames rather than nuanced discussion In this case, in my opinion, linters/styling/rules help people to focus on what matters. And sure, with sufficient skill you might not need any of that to help you focus on what matters. But so what? It's better if we can make the trade more accessible, and can make it so people can focus on what matters with less experience
- zekrioca 6y ago
  Couldn’t agree more. That’s the main reason why simple and accessible projects are praised most by general people.
Akronymus 6y ago
I do like to use a linter to make it easier readable. But yeah, most of the architecture actually is based on how you store/structure your data. Code is just a result of how you implement the data.

Koshkin 6y ago

And that’s because it’s Bad Programmers who need help!

rapind 6y ago
... and "rules" for programming.
mgkimsal 6y ago
but... they need help on data structures/relations and up front thinking about those issues, not where curly braces should go, or tabs-v-spaces.
- wvenable 6y ago
  That stuff is hard! Better to just shove your data somewhere unstructured and then you don't have to worry about data structures and relations.
- Benjammer 6y ago
  Right, because the hyper-focus on linting of the industry is the symptom here, it's not a misguided treatment for the underlying problem of bad programmers.

rumanator 6y ago

> And yet, I see a whole swath of the industry hyper-focused on various linters/styling/rules. It seems to me that what you're actually seeing is an entire industry trying to eliminate all code-related issues, specially bike-shedding ones. This is patently obvious to anyone who was forced to waste their time in code review iterations discussing, say, where a brace should go and how many spaces someone should have added.

s17n 6y ago
Nobody was ever "forced to waste their time" on this stuff. I have a simple rule - I don't comment on other people's style, and if people comment on my style, I just go with their suggestions. Problem solved.
- ses1984 6y ago
  You've never been on a team with two people with opposing opinions I guess.
  - Quekid5 6y ago
    Just out of morbid curiosity... have you actually experienced multiple 'seniors' giving conflicting code review comments about code style (of all things)? That sounds quite dysfunctional. (EDIT: Sure, nitpicks may differ, but...)
    - ses1984 6y ago
      Style yes, formatting no. Worked with two developers who endlessly argued whether or not we should handle a certain bit of complexity in a certain layer or the next layer over, so we ended up handling it in both layers with the downsides of both.
    - rumanator 6y ago
      > That sounds quite dysfunctional. No,it doesn't. It sounds like the expected outcome of not enforcing an established style with automated tools. All it takes is someone posting a merge request with a bracket out of place, or tabs instead of spaces which screws layout because yes IDEs have custom definitions and a dude happened to have opened a source file with an editor that wasn't properly configured. Boom, merge request receives two comments pointing out the bracket and how indentation is off. Congrats, about 20 minutes of your team's day are wasted because that's the time it takes to receive feedback from the merge request, be briefed on the remarks, go through the code and fix whitespaces, commit your change, push those changes, update the merge request, and wait for a team member to review your update. No drama. No dysfunctional team. No disagreement, even. But those 20 minutes of your life are lost forever.

burke 6y ago

Bad programmers inflicting their worry upon the others.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

furyofantares 6y ago

> > Bad programmers worry about the code > And yet, I see a whole swath of the industry hyper-focused on various linters/styling/rules. I've come to a severe distaste for this good programmer/bad programmer mentality I've seen on the internet for, I guess decades now There is skill in programming, yes, obviously. But this simplistic divide seems to me to be more about putting one's own ego on the superior side. It leads to simplistic heuristics and flames rather than nuanced discussion In this case, in my opinion, linters/styling/rules help people to focus on what matters. And sure, with sufficient skill you might not need any of that to help you focus on what matters. But so what? It's better if we can make the trade more accessible, and can make it so people can focus on what matters with less experience

zekrioca 6y ago
Couldn’t agree more. That’s the main reason why simple and accessible projects are praised most by general people.

Akronymus 6y ago

I do like to use a linter to make it easier readable. But yeah, most of the architecture actually is based on how you store/structure your data. Code is just a result of how you implement the data.