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The 5 questions seem to ignore peoples backgrounds and circumstances. If you typically aren't facing injustice often then you aren't going to think you are a v

by sicnus 6y ago

The 5 questions seem to ignore peoples backgrounds and circumstances. If you typically aren't facing injustice often then you aren't going to think you are a victim. It is a privileged position to assume everyone should "score" the same if they aren't marginalized.

Godel_unicode 6y ago
"""It’s important to point out that the researchers do not equate experiencing trauma and victimization with possessing the victimhood mindset. They point out that a victimhood mindset can develop without experiencing severe trauma or victimization. Vice versa, experiencing severe trauma or victimization doesn’t necessarily mean that someone is going to develop a victimhood mindset. """
pmoriarty 6y ago
"If you typically aren't facing injustice often then you aren't going to think you are a victim." That's not necessarily true. Many people are really good at deceiving themselves and making themselves out to be the victim when they're not. Hypocrisy also plays a role. Not naming any names here, but there's a certain well-known person in a tremendous position of power, who is constantly victimizing others, yet endlessly whining about being a victim. The so-called Dolchstoßlegende (ie. "stab-in-the-back myth") was a critically important piece of propaganda in Nazi Germany, where the Nazis made up scapegoats to blame for Germany's loss of WW1.[1] They also, of course, famously scapegoated Jews, and made themselves and Germany to be the victims of Jews, all the while actually victimizing and exterminating Jews in Germany and the rest of Europe. Nazis were in all these cases the aggressors, not the victims, yet it was important for them to see themselves as the victims and for others to see them as such, so they could feel more justified in using violence against their enemies, and so they could acquire more power to "protect" themselves. Much of this is paralleled in contemporary politics, and the powerful continue to create myths that they are the victims of the powerless, while in fact themselves committing violence against the latter. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_myth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_myth
- seigando 6y ago
  I think you raise some interesting points. FTA: "However, the researchers found that an anxious attachment style was a particularly strong antecedent of the tendency for interpersonal victimhood." So what precedes an 'anxious attachment style'? "When a child feels safe, seen, and soothed by their parent in a consistent way, they are able to form a secure attachment to that parent. However, when a parent is available and attuned at times and insensitive or intrusive at others, the child is more likely to experience an anxious ambivalent attachment pattern"[1] I think it's a reasonable assessment that the-unnamed did experience a form of trauma growing up...and now we as a society are dealing with the consequences of putting someone like that into power. I wonder if maybe those who elect these kinds of people relate to them on that fundamental level. Food for thought. [1]https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/compassion-matters/201904/how-anxious-attachment-style-affects-relationships https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/compassion-matters/2...
- watwut 6y ago
  Nazi also complained that Jews are making themselves victims while they supposedly are not. And they also liked to frame themselves as strong manly man whose will and power will win over all obstacles. The primary identification was not victim, it was strongman. We can play the nazi game both ways.
  - pmoriarty 6y ago
    "Nazi also complained that Jews are making themselves victims while they supposedly are not." Sure, they can say that, but they would be lying. How were Jews not victims when millions of them were being murdered by Nazis? I don't remember Nazis being locked up in ghettoes, concentration camps, or death camps by Jews in WW2. The Nazis were clearly the aggressors, and their attempts to paint themselves as the victims were transparent lies. It's truly sad that this still needs to be pointed out to some people. "The primary identification [of the Nazis] was not victim, it was strongman." It was both. They wanted to have it both ways, so they can pretend to be defending themselves and Germany when they attacked. And they wanted all of Germany to run to them for protection against the Jewish and Communist boogeyman. Tragically, their strategy worked. And it was they, not the Jews, who were doing the attacking. "We can play the nazi game both ways." To you it may seem like a game, but the sorts of lies you're repeating have resulted in the deaths of millions of people, and may do so again. This is no game.
bityard 6y ago
It seems like you didn't read the full article. The research that the article talks about was careful to separate the _mindset_ of victimhood from the actual experience of being a victim of someone else's antisocial or even violent behavior. The two are not the same. One can experience prejudice, social bias, and outright physical violence without developing a permanent self-image as a victim. But we all know that one crazy friend or family member who thinks (and says) the world is against them yet never had a truly traumatic experience in their whole life.
- watwut 6y ago
  But like, I also know people who talked about being wronged and then it eventually turned out they really have been wronged. And it took them quite a lot of effort to get made sorta kinda equal - had they been accepting and silent, none of that would happen.
  - lopmotr 6y ago
    If it can be made right, then yea but if not, then it's probably better to imagine you weren't wronged. I have a personal experience with this. I suffered an injury that caused a permanent disability, but because I was also knocked out, I don't know what caused it. Maybe I was assaulted or maybe I had an accident. Should I feel wronged just in case it turns out to be an assault? No! I'm kind of lucky not knowing whether to blame someone else or myself! Maybe if I knew, that emotion of being wronged would motivate me to fight for justice and the perpetrator could get convicted but I'm comfortable assuming it was an accident. That's a lot better than fighting and losing.
    - watwut 6y ago
      In cases I have in mind, it looked futile until it did not. In the situation you described, you don't know what happened. So a good guess of your feelings would be confusion, I see no reason to force "feeling lucky" or "blaming yourself" or "feeling wronged" or any other emotion you don't actually feel. I don't understand this prescribing what people should feel and I think it does more harm then good. People do feel, they also think and the two interacts. It is much more important to understand what your feelings actually are and how they are influencing you, rather then analyse what theoretical person should feel or try to force yourself to feel the things you dont.
hour_glass 6y ago
It's just about the perception of injustice. A privileged person facing minor injustices could completely have this mindset. In fact I've met many many people like this. A journalist came up with this concept at the World Economic Forum, I think it was fractal poverty??, and it was this observation that from the poorest people in the world to the absolute richest there was this sense that they were excluded from and oppressed by someone more powerful. Absolutely anyone can feel this way.
- efavdb 6y ago
  Interesting observation. I feel it's all about baselines: To decide if you have a lot of something, you need to compare your allotment to some baseline. You'll feel like a victim if you're more mistreated than your baseline of choice. If zero -- that in the ideal world with no mistreatment -- you'll always feel put out. If it's the median amount of mistreatment, half will feel good half bad, etc. Interesting that humans seem to statistically select their baseline as that just better than their current state.
  - refurb 6y ago
    Exactly and it goes beyond victimhood as well. You'll have a group of people go through the same negative experience (e.g. almost dying from a natural disaster, being held as a POW and tortured) and what's interesting is you'll see a huge variation of the impact of those events. Some people will come out of it relatively unscathed, while others will be haunted by it for the rest of their lives. No doubt their past experiences shaped their mindset and how they made sense of the negative experience.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  It's just about the perception of injustice. A privileged person facing minor injustices could completely have this mindset. In fact I've met many many people like this. Privileged people facing no injustice howl the loudest that they are the most oppressed. In fact, facing no justice either, getting away with every crime under the sun.
  - 6y ago
giantg2 6y ago
I agree that how one frames the questions can lead to drastically different scores. If I'm thinking about this in terms of my workplace, I would probably score fairly high due to the typical corporate injustices that many workers endure. But if I think about this on a personal life basis or overall basis, then I would score pretty low.
Wolfenstein98k 6y ago
Case in point. Victim ideology writ large (group level - ingroups and outgroups) is still victim ideology. It doesn't become more right at the group level, it stems from the same biases and thought patterns.

by sicnus 6y ago

Godel_unicode 6y ago

"""It’s important to point out that the researchers do not equate experiencing trauma and victimization with possessing the victimhood mindset. They point out that a victimhood mindset can develop without experiencing severe trauma or victimization. Vice versa, experiencing severe trauma or victimization doesn’t necessarily mean that someone is going to develop a victimhood mindset. """

pmoriarty 6y ago

"If you typically aren't facing injustice often then you aren't going to think you are a victim." That's not necessarily true. Many people are really good at deceiving themselves and making themselves out to be the victim when they're not. Hypocrisy also plays a role. Not naming any names here, but there's a certain well-known person in a tremendous position of power, who is constantly victimizing others, yet endlessly whining about being a victim. The so-called Dolchstoßlegende (ie. "stab-in-the-back myth") was a critically important piece of propaganda in Nazi Germany, where the Nazis made up scapegoats to blame for Germany's loss of WW1.[1] They also, of course, famously scapegoated Jews, and made themselves and Germany to be the victims of Jews, all the while actually victimizing and exterminating Jews in Germany and the rest of Europe. Nazis were in all these cases the aggressors, not the victims, yet it was important for them to see themselves as the victims and for others to see them as such, so they could feel more justified in using violence against their enemies, and so they could acquire more power to "protect" themselves. Much of this is paralleled in contemporary politics, and the powerful continue to create myths that they are the victims of the powerless, while in fact themselves committing violence against the latter. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_myth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_myth

seigando 6y ago
I think you raise some interesting points. FTA: "However, the researchers found that an anxious attachment style was a particularly strong antecedent of the tendency for interpersonal victimhood." So what precedes an 'anxious attachment style'? "When a child feels safe, seen, and soothed by their parent in a consistent way, they are able to form a secure attachment to that parent. However, when a parent is available and attuned at times and insensitive or intrusive at others, the child is more likely to experience an anxious ambivalent attachment pattern"[1] I think it's a reasonable assessment that the-unnamed did experience a form of trauma growing up...and now we as a society are dealing with the consequences of putting someone like that into power. I wonder if maybe those who elect these kinds of people relate to them on that fundamental level. Food for thought. [1]https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/compassion-matters/201904/how-anxious-attachment-style-affects-relationships https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/compassion-matters/2...
watwut 6y ago
Nazi also complained that Jews are making themselves victims while they supposedly are not. And they also liked to frame themselves as strong manly man whose will and power will win over all obstacles. The primary identification was not victim, it was strongman. We can play the nazi game both ways.
- pmoriarty 6y ago
  "Nazi also complained that Jews are making themselves victims while they supposedly are not." Sure, they can say that, but they would be lying. How were Jews not victims when millions of them were being murdered by Nazis? I don't remember Nazis being locked up in ghettoes, concentration camps, or death camps by Jews in WW2. The Nazis were clearly the aggressors, and their attempts to paint themselves as the victims were transparent lies. It's truly sad that this still needs to be pointed out to some people. "The primary identification [of the Nazis] was not victim, it was strongman." It was both. They wanted to have it both ways, so they can pretend to be defending themselves and Germany when they attacked. And they wanted all of Germany to run to them for protection against the Jewish and Communist boogeyman. Tragically, their strategy worked. And it was they, not the Jews, who were doing the attacking. "We can play the nazi game both ways." To you it may seem like a game, but the sorts of lies you're repeating have resulted in the deaths of millions of people, and may do so again. This is no game.

bityard 6y ago

It seems like you didn't read the full article. The research that the article talks about was careful to separate the _mindset_ of victimhood from the actual experience of being a victim of someone else's antisocial or even violent behavior. The two are not the same. One can experience prejudice, social bias, and outright physical violence without developing a permanent self-image as a victim. But we all know that one crazy friend or family member who thinks (and says) the world is against them yet never had a truly traumatic experience in their whole life.

watwut 6y ago
But like, I also know people who talked about being wronged and then it eventually turned out they really have been wronged. And it took them quite a lot of effort to get made sorta kinda equal - had they been accepting and silent, none of that would happen.
- lopmotr 6y ago
  If it can be made right, then yea but if not, then it's probably better to imagine you weren't wronged. I have a personal experience with this. I suffered an injury that caused a permanent disability, but because I was also knocked out, I don't know what caused it. Maybe I was assaulted or maybe I had an accident. Should I feel wronged just in case it turns out to be an assault? No! I'm kind of lucky not knowing whether to blame someone else or myself! Maybe if I knew, that emotion of being wronged would motivate me to fight for justice and the perpetrator could get convicted but I'm comfortable assuming it was an accident. That's a lot better than fighting and losing.
  - watwut 6y ago
    In cases I have in mind, it looked futile until it did not. In the situation you described, you don't know what happened. So a good guess of your feelings would be confusion, I see no reason to force "feeling lucky" or "blaming yourself" or "feeling wronged" or any other emotion you don't actually feel. I don't understand this prescribing what people should feel and I think it does more harm then good. People do feel, they also think and the two interacts. It is much more important to understand what your feelings actually are and how they are influencing you, rather then analyse what theoretical person should feel or try to force yourself to feel the things you dont.

hour_glass 6y ago

It's just about the perception of injustice. A privileged person facing minor injustices could completely have this mindset. In fact I've met many many people like this. A journalist came up with this concept at the World Economic Forum, I think it was fractal poverty??, and it was this observation that from the poorest people in the world to the absolute richest there was this sense that they were excluded from and oppressed by someone more powerful. Absolutely anyone can feel this way.

efavdb 6y ago
Interesting observation. I feel it's all about baselines: To decide if you have a lot of something, you need to compare your allotment to some baseline. You'll feel like a victim if you're more mistreated than your baseline of choice. If zero -- that in the ideal world with no mistreatment -- you'll always feel put out. If it's the median amount of mistreatment, half will feel good half bad, etc. Interesting that humans seem to statistically select their baseline as that just better than their current state.
- refurb 6y ago
  Exactly and it goes beyond victimhood as well. You'll have a group of people go through the same negative experience (e.g. almost dying from a natural disaster, being held as a POW and tortured) and what's interesting is you'll see a huge variation of the impact of those events. Some people will come out of it relatively unscathed, while others will be haunted by it for the rest of their lives. No doubt their past experiences shaped their mindset and how they made sense of the negative experience.
goatinaboat 6y ago
It's just about the perception of injustice. A privileged person facing minor injustices could completely have this mindset. In fact I've met many many people like this. Privileged people facing no injustice howl the loudest that they are the most oppressed. In fact, facing no justice either, getting away with every crime under the sun.
- 6y ago

giantg2 6y ago

I agree that how one frames the questions can lead to drastically different scores. If I'm thinking about this in terms of my workplace, I would probably score fairly high due to the typical corporate injustices that many workers endure. But if I think about this on a personal life basis or overall basis, then I would score pretty low.

Wolfenstein98k 6y ago

Case in point. Victim ideology writ large (group level - ingroups and outgroups) is still victim ideology. It doesn't become more right at the group level, it stems from the same biases and thought patterns.