4 ms·

It's especially dumb because the character is a positive reference to blacks. How will it help anybody if we remove all black people from our traditions and his

It's especially dumb because the character is a positive reference to blacks. How will it help anybody if we remove all black people from our traditions and history?

tibbydudeza 6y ago
You being serious ???. Big lips ... gold earings ... it the offensive "coon" caricature.
- enriquto 6y ago
  Pretending that people in the nederlands are familiar with a cultural thing from the american continent (in that case, the "coon" caricatures, that have 0 history in northern europe), is an offensive form of cultural imposition.
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    Wouldn't go as far as saying it is cultural imposition, it is just ignorance.
- wwwwwwwww 6y ago
  How do the other characters look like? Do they wear modern clothing and carry books? Or are they portrayed as well as they where when the tradition started? Also, what's is bad about big lips? Or earrings?
- bkor 6y ago
  Zwarte Piet / Black Pete is considered a great person (admirable). This despite the way that the person is shown. IMO it's always funny/humourus that people assume something else, especially it it's followed by various wild accusations. Suggest to read up on what's being celebrated.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    Is he? https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/black-pete-analyzing-a-racialized-dutch-tradition-through-the-history-of-western-creations-of-stereotypes-of-black-peoples/ https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/black-pete... > Enter the modern day Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet. Leading up to W.W.II, Black Pete’s job was to investigate which children had been “bad,” and to take them away in his sack and/or whip them for discipline. Today, the dominating image of Black Pete is more one of entertainment for others’ enjoyment: He helps Sinterklaas deliver the presents and no longer acts as the one who brings punishment to the bad children. But the old task of Black Pete is still referred to in a funny matter. Many parents joke and say “I will tell Black Pete to take you with him to Spain!”. Sinterklaas will ask Black Pete to see ‘The Book’, which lists all the right and wrong things a child did. Over time, Zwarte Piet’s character morphed into a group of Black Petes; all considered a Zwarte Piet, but each with different characteristics. > In the celebrations, Sinterklaas, who is white, is played by a white person. Black Pete is played in full blackface, usually by a white person as well, or by a black person also in blackface. The actors paint their faces black with huge red lips, wear a curly wig and Moorish dress. “They are portrayed as young, and agile, and do much running and jumping around and acting like acrobats,” says Leyla Hamidi of the National Bureau Against Racial Discrimination. Sinterklaas is portrayed as old, wise, mature, calm, and in control. In celebrations and the media, Black Pete is overwhelmingly viewed by children and adults as unintelligent and clownish. These and other characteristics were found to be typical characteristics of Black Pete as well as black characters in general in Dutch children’s books. Berend’s research found them portrayed as dumb, childish, idle, foolish, and strict (for the old version of Black Pete). Berends further showed similar results for the main physical depictions of black people in children’s books and Black Pete imagery – including enlarged red lips, enlarged white teeth, and enlarged and bulging eyes.
bkor 6y ago
How's showing a certain group of people in a ridiculous way helping blacks and showing positivity? I agree that Zwarte Piet is portrayed as a great person/character. Despite that, the way it's shown is nowadays outdated and is actually harmful. So despite everything being done in a way that is NOT racist at all, in practice it does cause some harm. IMO the easy way out would still be to paint people, but to paint them in some weird colour. Note: it took me a long time to get to this, this as "Kick Out Zwarte Piet" is one of the most stupid advocacy groups that I've seen. It almost seems like a hidden advocacy group IMO.
- DanBC 6y ago
  > IMO the easy way out would still be to paint people, but to paint them in some weird colour. This is what some English / Welsh "Border Morris" dancers do. This page shows a wide mix. There's full black, half black or black shapes, soot-like smudges[1], mixed black and colour, or full non-black colour. http://projectbritain.com/mayday/morrisdancing.html http://projectbritain.com/mayday/morrisdancing.html

It's especially dumb because the character is a positive reference to blacks. How will it help anybody if we remove all black people from our traditions and history?

tibbydudeza 6y ago

You being serious ???. Big lips ... gold earings ... it the offensive "coon" caricature.

enriquto 6y ago
Pretending that people in the nederlands are familiar with a cultural thing from the american continent (in that case, the "coon" caricatures, that have 0 history in northern europe), is an offensive form of cultural imposition.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  Wouldn't go as far as saying it is cultural imposition, it is just ignorance.
wwwwwwwww 6y ago
How do the other characters look like? Do they wear modern clothing and carry books? Or are they portrayed as well as they where when the tradition started? Also, what's is bad about big lips? Or earrings?
bkor 6y ago
Zwarte Piet / Black Pete is considered a great person (admirable). This despite the way that the person is shown. IMO it's always funny/humourus that people assume something else, especially it it's followed by various wild accusations. Suggest to read up on what's being celebrated.
- DanBC 6y ago
  Is he? https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/black-pete-analyzing-a-racialized-dutch-tradition-through-the-history-of-western-creations-of-stereotypes-of-black-peoples/ https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/black-pete... > Enter the modern day Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet. Leading up to W.W.II, Black Pete’s job was to investigate which children had been “bad,” and to take them away in his sack and/or whip them for discipline. Today, the dominating image of Black Pete is more one of entertainment for others’ enjoyment: He helps Sinterklaas deliver the presents and no longer acts as the one who brings punishment to the bad children. But the old task of Black Pete is still referred to in a funny matter. Many parents joke and say “I will tell Black Pete to take you with him to Spain!”. Sinterklaas will ask Black Pete to see ‘The Book’, which lists all the right and wrong things a child did. Over time, Zwarte Piet’s character morphed into a group of Black Petes; all considered a Zwarte Piet, but each with different characteristics. > In the celebrations, Sinterklaas, who is white, is played by a white person. Black Pete is played in full blackface, usually by a white person as well, or by a black person also in blackface. The actors paint their faces black with huge red lips, wear a curly wig and Moorish dress. “They are portrayed as young, and agile, and do much running and jumping around and acting like acrobats,” says Leyla Hamidi of the National Bureau Against Racial Discrimination. Sinterklaas is portrayed as old, wise, mature, calm, and in control. In celebrations and the media, Black Pete is overwhelmingly viewed by children and adults as unintelligent and clownish. These and other characteristics were found to be typical characteristics of Black Pete as well as black characters in general in Dutch children’s books. Berend’s research found them portrayed as dumb, childish, idle, foolish, and strict (for the old version of Black Pete). Berends further showed similar results for the main physical depictions of black people in children’s books and Black Pete imagery – including enlarged red lips, enlarged white teeth, and enlarged and bulging eyes.

bkor 6y ago

How's showing a certain group of people in a ridiculous way helping blacks and showing positivity? I agree that Zwarte Piet is portrayed as a great person/character. Despite that, the way it's shown is nowadays outdated and is actually harmful. So despite everything being done in a way that is NOT racist at all, in practice it does cause some harm. IMO the easy way out would still be to paint people, but to paint them in some weird colour. Note: it took me a long time to get to this, this as "Kick Out Zwarte Piet" is one of the most stupid advocacy groups that I've seen. It almost seems like a hidden advocacy group IMO.

DanBC 6y ago
> IMO the easy way out would still be to paint people, but to paint them in some weird colour. This is what some English / Welsh "Border Morris" dancers do. This page shows a wide mix. There's full black, half black or black shapes, soot-like smudges[1], mixed black and colour, or full non-black colour. http://projectbritain.com/mayday/morrisdancing.html http://projectbritain.com/mayday/morrisdancing.html