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> Dutch outlet NU.nl reported that a Facebook spokesperson clarified to them that the ban extends to Zwarte Piet, also known as Black Peter, a folk character th
by realusername 6y ago
> Dutch outlet NU.nl reported that a Facebook spokesperson clarified to them that the ban extends to Zwarte Piet, also known as Black Peter, a folk character that accompanies St. Nicholas on Christmas.
And here is exactly why it's a stupid idea, different countries have different culture and history.
We also celebrate the exact same event in my place and it's just a part of kindergarten, nothing related about US culture. People needs to be less stubborn and understand that not everywhere is the same as the place they grew up.
Edit: Although I've just learned that the Dutch & German versions look indeed different compared to my place. The massive black-beard ones we have in my place would still be okay for Facebook I believe, but it's the same concept really.
- the-dude 6y agoI have talked about the word neger ( Dutch variant of negro ) with all my known black acquaintances and also with some whom I didn't know before. Nobody had any problems with the word neger. "Of course I am a neger they said, and you are a white guy. So what, just don't call me zwarte ( black ).". This is in NL.
- luckylion 6y agoThat's interesting, the word is very taboo in Germany, essentially only used by very old people, relatively far right-wing folks and some Africans (though much, much less so than in the US).
- sebazzz 6y agoThat is interesting, because one of the black (should I call him that, I find "black" polarising) comedians here, Steven Brunswijk, used to call himself Braboneger which is a combination of his province and the mentioned word. However he stopped calling himself that because it wouldn't help his career (which I suppose means: others find it offensive). [0] [0]: https://www.ad.nl/tilburg/braboneger-laat-bijnaam-vallen-en-wordt-weer-steven-brunswijk~a041d8b3/?referrer=https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/ https://www.ad.nl/tilburg/braboneger-laat-bijnaam-vallen-en-...
- the-dude 6y agoDon't you think there is a fundamental difference between the casual use of the word and including it in your brand name?
- asutekku 6y agoSvarte Piet is arguably a racist caricature, so I can see why it was banned. And no, it’s not just soot on his face, as some people like to claim.
- realusername 6y agoWhere would you draw the line? In my place it's more common for him to have a very massive black beard covering 3/4 of his face instead so you can almost only see the eyes, is that more acceptable? Its root is in mythology rather than anything else.
- asutekku 6y agoI’d say the line should drawn on the presentation. If we have hundreds of people on the streets wearing blackface and and red lipstick, that’s not okay. However if he’s presented as this bearded fellow, i see no problem.
- the-dude 6y agoAnd what about the black women from Suriname who for years enjoyed volunteering for the role? They are turned away by the organizing committee ... tada, because they are black.
- boomboomsubban 6y agoOr she could play any other role in the play.
- the-dude 6y agoName one.
- boomboomsubban 6y agoI don't have familiarity with the story, but I highly doubt skin color is an important detail for any other character. St. Nick is Turkish after all.
- tobyhinloopen 6y agoBlack Pete is a controversial subject for years by now. Given that “some” people might consider it racist, I’m not surprised that it’s no longer allowed on Facebook. Also note the BLM movement that spread through our country as well, which I think will definitely impact the public opinion for about black pete. Not saying I agree or disagree; not going to touch that dumpster fire with my opinions.
- bkor 6y ago> And here is exactly why it's a stupid idea, different countries have different culture and history. Even culture can negatively affect certain groups. Apparently the Zwarte Piet thing is negatively affecting and causing some racism. There's the entirely ridiculous "Kick Out Zwarte Piet" group, whose behaviour initially made me against whatever they wanted to happen. There's also some practicalities. Normally kids wouldn't recognize the people playing "Sinterklaas" or "Zwarte Piet". The initial proposed alternatives were bad. Still, saying "culture" as the only reason for being against something? It's not good enough! I'm Dutch btw.
- sebazzz 6y agoThe entire core of the question is whether when something is not intended to be racist is racist. For instance: in Iran there is a festivity in which a person with a black face plays a huge role, and it has been declared world cultural heritage. I wonder why there is no discussion about that. Is that because the Dutch are white and the past is the VOC and slavery? Or because the Dutch are white?
- ralfn 6y ago> Is that because the Dutch are white and the past is the VOC and slavery? Or because the Dutch are white? As a Dutch person I will answer: the first. The great grandfather's of the black kids getting name called 'Zwarte Piet' because of this tradition were literally slaves. Their grandparents were free but did not have remotely the same chances in life. Often couldn't read/write. Any original culture or family ties they had were completely erased. It wasn't like we allowed them to 'raise their kids' when they were slaves. Their parents had it much better. Went to the same schools, etc. Still had to deal with racism when going out or trying to get a nice job, but not at all with persecution. They still did not having a lot of good role models within their own community yet. And don't think about trying to go to a club or join a fraternity. The current generation is the first one performing on par with native people within society. With more good role models and succesfull entrepeneurs. Honestly. Decent folks in the Netherlands already changed the tradition to the chimney style. Small subtle change. Doesn't harm anyone. The people at this moment who still strongly hold on to Zwarte Piet .. are racist. But the tradition wasn't intended to be. And before the discussions started it wasn't. It is now. Because it's impossible to claim that minor changes to traditions are this important to someone unless the intend is racist. Traditions that were always changing. That have changed over and over again. And the only change that is a discussion is this one.
- wwwwwwwww 6y agoIt's especially dumb because the character is a positive reference to blacks. How will it help anybody if we remove all black people from our traditions and history?
- tibbydudeza 6y agoYou being serious ???. Big lips ... gold earings ... it the offensive "coon" caricature.
- enriquto 6y agoPretending that people in the nederlands are familiar with a cultural thing from the american continent (in that case, the "coon" caricatures, that have 0 history in northern europe), is an offensive form of cultural imposition.
- raxxorrax 6y agoWouldn't go as far as saying it is cultural imposition, it is just ignorance.
- wwwwwwwww 6y agoHow do the other characters look like? Do they wear modern clothing and carry books? Or are they portrayed as well as they where when the tradition started? Also, what's is bad about big lips? Or earrings?
- bkor 6y agoZwarte Piet / Black Pete is considered a great person (admirable). This despite the way that the person is shown. IMO it's always funny/humourus that people assume something else, especially it it's followed by various wild accusations. Suggest to read up on what's being celebrated.
- DanBC 6y agoIs he? https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/black-pete-analyzing-a-racialized-dutch-tradition-through-the-history-of-western-creations-of-stereotypes-of-black-peoples/ https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/black-pete... > Enter the modern day Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet. Leading up to W.W.II, Black Pete’s job was to investigate which children had been “bad,” and to take them away in his sack and/or whip them for discipline. Today, the dominating image of Black Pete is more one of entertainment for others’ enjoyment: He helps Sinterklaas deliver the presents and no longer acts as the one who brings punishment to the bad children. But the old task of Black Pete is still referred to in a funny matter. Many parents joke and say “I will tell Black Pete to take you with him to Spain!”. Sinterklaas will ask Black Pete to see ‘The Book’, which lists all the right and wrong things a child did. Over time, Zwarte Piet’s character morphed into a group of Black Petes; all considered a Zwarte Piet, but each with different characteristics. > In the celebrations, Sinterklaas, who is white, is played by a white person. Black Pete is played in full blackface, usually by a white person as well, or by a black person also in blackface. The actors paint their faces black with huge red lips, wear a curly wig and Moorish dress. “They are portrayed as young, and agile, and do much running and jumping around and acting like acrobats,” says Leyla Hamidi of the National Bureau Against Racial Discrimination. Sinterklaas is portrayed as old, wise, mature, calm, and in control. In celebrations and the media, Black Pete is overwhelmingly viewed by children and adults as unintelligent and clownish. These and other characteristics were found to be typical characteristics of Black Pete as well as black characters in general in Dutch children’s books. Berend’s research found them portrayed as dumb, childish, idle, foolish, and strict (for the old version of Black Pete). Berends further showed similar results for the main physical depictions of black people in children’s books and Black Pete imagery – including enlarged red lips, enlarged white teeth, and enlarged and bulging eyes.
- tibbydudeza 6y agoHolland was a colonial power - are you actually claiming Black Peter is all Dutch culture and has absolutely nothing to do with black servitude ???.
- enriquto 6y agoI guess they are claiming that Black Peter has nothing to do with minstrel shows, that are the reason why blackface is problematic in the USA (and it shouldn't really be anywhere else, in my opinion).
- realusername 6y agoYou have the same character in Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland and eastern France, it's just part of a cross-european culture.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- rich_sasha 6y agoCame here to say _exactly_ this. Racism is awful, but going around with US-shaped visors and using that as the sole/primary criterion of it is not good. For another example: there is no association between Blackface and racism in Poland. Sure, there is plenty of racism on other grounds, but e.g. a white person putting on black make-up isn't part of it.
- dcow 6y agoIt's also not as black and white in the US despite the popular narrative. Blackface was an avenue of opportunity for freed black slaves to gain social visibility while at the same time a way for white people to slowly introduce black culture into the narrative. The practice of comedy at the expense of black slave stereotypes has fallen out of practice because it's no longer culturally relevant, for sure, but "coon" culture had an important role to play in US history. A modern analog might be hip hop. Eminem and other white rappers arguably don black-speak to participate in a scene that idolizes, or celebrates, the struggles of low income, predominately black, communities. But the art tells an important story. And it's great music!
- kome 6y agosame with nudity, and this puritan obsession pushed by US megacorps...