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> I'm just disappointed about what Mozilla has become over the years. I think that train started rolling when they forced Eich out as CEO. Ever since then, Mo

> I'm just disappointed about what Mozilla has become over the years. I think that train started rolling when they forced Eich out as CEO. Ever since then, Mozilla seems to be less about best-in-class technology, and more about virtue signalling.

bitwize 6y ago
They forced Eich out because maintaining him in a leadership role and "face of the company" was at odds with their values as a company and foundation. And usage of "virtue signalling" in the manner you used it is strongly associated with bigotry.
- cambalache 6y ago
  Nice way to police language
- Stupulous 6y ago
  That's not a fair point about virtue signalling. I get the motivation there, the term rubs you the wrong way (me too) because it's frequently used by the wrong people, and you're trying to either help the guy write or write off his arguments. But there's no guilt by association. There's nothing inherent about 'virtue signalling' that makes it bigoted, and if corporations found a way to make money by pretending to be bigoted, the scale would tilt in the other direction. Free speech and anti-corporate attitudes are traditionally liberal values. Nowadays, you see arguments from bigots that oppose corporate power over free speech. We shouldn't be forced to withdraw our positions on free speech or corporate power just because they're associated with bigotry now. The idea of expecting others to do so is apalling to me, even if I'm not on board with the virtue signalling stuff specifically.
- prepend 6y ago
  I think that’s when their values changes from being a technically excellent product to being a friendly company that values harmony over function. So it did stick to their values, but their values seem superficial rather than functional. As a user, I would rather have a better browser than a company full of people who think that being against gay marriage 10 years ago means they are dangerous to coworkers or whatnot. I think it’s great for companies to choose their own values and make their own way. And I can prefer companies that focus on other things. I don’t necessarily think firing Eich causes Mozilla to suck, but I think Brave is a much better browser and they have far fewer employees with less funding. I don’t donate to Mozilla and one of the reasons is because their mission is so vague.
  - esperent 6y ago
    Brave is just (yet another) wrapper for Chromium. The scope of the project is nothing like the scope of Firefox, let alone Mozilla. As for being a better browser, built in adblocking is great (especially on mobile). But the whole Brave rewards thing is kind of weird and never made sense to me.
    - prepend 6y ago
      It’s a very different browser, but I used it as an example because I think it’s much better than Firefox and Chrome. Mozilla could have made Brave, they didn’t. Brave is simpler, but better, I think, and even more so shows off how Mozilla’s values aren’t in making awesome software, but in something else. I largely ignore the weird Brave blockchain thing and just use it as a nice, simple browser.
      - michaelmrose 6y ago
        Are you suggesting that Mozilla should have made a chromium skin instead of an actual browser? So far as I can see the only thing meaningful brave offers over chromium is adblocking on mobile which is indeed huge but also available on mobile Firefox. Meanwhile Mozilla has given us rust, servo, and and an addon ecosystem that is still more powerful and flexible than chrome even post giving old school addons the ax.
        prepend 6y ago
        I don’t think Mozilla should have Brave per se, but it shows some of the work they could have done. If they had to literally skin chrome to do then I guess they could. But they should be capable of so much more. Specially Brave is faster to launch and uses less resources than Firefox and had privacy and ad blocking features turned on by default. I particularly like the little bug that shows you how much bloat it’s blocked.
        michaelmrose 6y ago
- variable11 6y ago
  You don't get to redefine words to paint everyone who disagrees with you as a bigot, that's Orwellian and tyrannical, but typical of your fanaticism.
gurumeditations 6y ago
“Virtue signaling” meaning standing against homophobia. Just say what you mean.
- war1025 6y ago
  I was going to say "virtue signalling to West coast liberals", but I decided to shorten things up a bit. Mozilla doesn't have any more business interest devoting resources to LGBT causes than Chick-Fil-A has a business interest in funding anti-LGBT causes. The difference is Chick-Fil-A makes money hand over fist and can afford to take its eye off the prize a little. Mozilla doesn't have that same luxury.
  - cge 6y ago
    What prize and business interest are you referring to? The Mozilla Corporation is a company that must answer to its shareholders, and its only shareholder is the Mozilla Foundation. The Foundation, in turn, has interests determined by its board, and "an internet that includes all the peoples of the earth — where a person’s demographic characteristics do not determine their online access, opportunities, or quality of experience" is one of those interests (added formally to their manifesto in 2018, but likely the guiding idea behind the Eich matter). You could certainly disagree with the interests of the Mozilla Foundation's board, and could choose to support another organization, like Brave Software, that has different ones, but are you suggesting that a board should not be able to determine the interests, within legal limits, for a non-profit, or that the sole shareholder of a corporation should not be able to control its interests and mission?
    - war1025 6y ago
      > You could certainly disagree with the interests of the Mozilla Foundation's board Right. They can choose to do whatever they want, it's their call. My point is Mozilla has pretty clearly been in some tough straits for a while now trying to remain relevant. Now they are having to lay people off. In my opinion, they have bigger issues to worry about as a corporation than social values, etc. But also I'm just a random nobody on the internet, so what's it really matter?
DonHopkins 6y ago
Eich was not forced out or fired. In fact, just the opposite: the board actually tried to get Eich to stay, but he decided to leave all on his own. Don't try to rewrite history to make an ideological point. It's all very well and unambiguously documented what really happened, and there's no excuse for you spreading that misinformation. https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/04/05/faq-on-ceo-resignation/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/04/05/faq-on-ceo-resignat... Q: Was Brendan Eich fired? A: No, Brendan Eich resigned. Brendan himself said: “I have decided to resign as CEO effective April 3rd, and leave Mozilla. Our mission is bigger than any one of us, and under the present circumstances, I cannot be an effective leader. I will be taking time before I decide what to do next.” Brendan Eich also blogged on this topic. Q: Was Brendan Eich asked to resign by the Board? A: No. It was Brendan’s idea to resign, and in fact, once he submitted his resignation, Board members tried to get Brendan to stay at Mozilla in another C-level role.
- rsj_hn 6y ago
  Then the financial settlement was just for kicks?
  - DonHopkins 6y ago
    What financial settlement?
    - rsj_hn 6y ago
      The (substantial) one they were forced to pay Brendan for firing him. You see, CA law protects employees from being fired for political activities done outside work -- this was a law put on the books a long time ago, originally to defend unionization campaigns and communists from being fired, but it means I can donate to the Pro-Life-Anti-Gay-Anti-Black party all day long, attend their conventions, give speeches, etc, and it's illegal for you to fire me for that. Funny how so few people know about this law. That's why they had to come to a settlement to pay him so that he would agree to leave and not pursue his rights under the law.
      - 6y ago
d3nj4l 6y ago
It's great that a user-centered protest against a CEO who literally donated to ban gay marriage is considered "virtue signalling". And that's not even considering that Eich was a CEO for all of 11 days before he quit.

bitwize 6y ago

They forced Eich out because maintaining him in a leadership role and "face of the company" was at odds with their values as a company and foundation. And usage of "virtue signalling" in the manner you used it is strongly associated with bigotry.

cambalache 6y ago
Nice way to police language
Stupulous 6y ago
That's not a fair point about virtue signalling. I get the motivation there, the term rubs you the wrong way (me too) because it's frequently used by the wrong people, and you're trying to either help the guy write or write off his arguments. But there's no guilt by association. There's nothing inherent about 'virtue signalling' that makes it bigoted, and if corporations found a way to make money by pretending to be bigoted, the scale would tilt in the other direction. Free speech and anti-corporate attitudes are traditionally liberal values. Nowadays, you see arguments from bigots that oppose corporate power over free speech. We shouldn't be forced to withdraw our positions on free speech or corporate power just because they're associated with bigotry now. The idea of expecting others to do so is apalling to me, even if I'm not on board with the virtue signalling stuff specifically.
prepend 6y ago
I think that’s when their values changes from being a technically excellent product to being a friendly company that values harmony over function. So it did stick to their values, but their values seem superficial rather than functional. As a user, I would rather have a better browser than a company full of people who think that being against gay marriage 10 years ago means they are dangerous to coworkers or whatnot. I think it’s great for companies to choose their own values and make their own way. And I can prefer companies that focus on other things. I don’t necessarily think firing Eich causes Mozilla to suck, but I think Brave is a much better browser and they have far fewer employees with less funding. I don’t donate to Mozilla and one of the reasons is because their mission is so vague.
- esperent 6y ago
  Brave is just (yet another) wrapper for Chromium. The scope of the project is nothing like the scope of Firefox, let alone Mozilla. As for being a better browser, built in adblocking is great (especially on mobile). But the whole Brave rewards thing is kind of weird and never made sense to me.
  - prepend 6y ago
    It’s a very different browser, but I used it as an example because I think it’s much better than Firefox and Chrome. Mozilla could have made Brave, they didn’t. Brave is simpler, but better, I think, and even more so shows off how Mozilla’s values aren’t in making awesome software, but in something else. I largely ignore the weird Brave blockchain thing and just use it as a nice, simple browser.
    - michaelmrose 6y ago
      Are you suggesting that Mozilla should have made a chromium skin instead of an actual browser? So far as I can see the only thing meaningful brave offers over chromium is adblocking on mobile which is indeed huge but also available on mobile Firefox. Meanwhile Mozilla has given us rust, servo, and and an addon ecosystem that is still more powerful and flexible than chrome even post giving old school addons the ax.
      - prepend 6y ago
        I don’t think Mozilla should have Brave per se, but it shows some of the work they could have done. If they had to literally skin chrome to do then I guess they could. But they should be capable of so much more. Specially Brave is faster to launch and uses less resources than Firefox and had privacy and ad blocking features turned on by default. I particularly like the little bug that shows you how much bloat it’s blocked.
        michaelmrose 6y ago
variable11 6y ago
You don't get to redefine words to paint everyone who disagrees with you as a bigot, that's Orwellian and tyrannical, but typical of your fanaticism.

gurumeditations 6y ago

“Virtue signaling” meaning standing against homophobia. Just say what you mean.

war1025 6y ago
I was going to say "virtue signalling to West coast liberals", but I decided to shorten things up a bit. Mozilla doesn't have any more business interest devoting resources to LGBT causes than Chick-Fil-A has a business interest in funding anti-LGBT causes. The difference is Chick-Fil-A makes money hand over fist and can afford to take its eye off the prize a little. Mozilla doesn't have that same luxury.
- cge 6y ago
  What prize and business interest are you referring to? The Mozilla Corporation is a company that must answer to its shareholders, and its only shareholder is the Mozilla Foundation. The Foundation, in turn, has interests determined by its board, and "an internet that includes all the peoples of the earth — where a person’s demographic characteristics do not determine their online access, opportunities, or quality of experience" is one of those interests (added formally to their manifesto in 2018, but likely the guiding idea behind the Eich matter). You could certainly disagree with the interests of the Mozilla Foundation's board, and could choose to support another organization, like Brave Software, that has different ones, but are you suggesting that a board should not be able to determine the interests, within legal limits, for a non-profit, or that the sole shareholder of a corporation should not be able to control its interests and mission?
  - war1025 6y ago
    > You could certainly disagree with the interests of the Mozilla Foundation's board Right. They can choose to do whatever they want, it's their call. My point is Mozilla has pretty clearly been in some tough straits for a while now trying to remain relevant. Now they are having to lay people off. In my opinion, they have bigger issues to worry about as a corporation than social values, etc. But also I'm just a random nobody on the internet, so what's it really matter?

DonHopkins 6y ago

Eich was not forced out or fired. In fact, just the opposite: the board actually tried to get Eich to stay, but he decided to leave all on his own. Don't try to rewrite history to make an ideological point. It's all very well and unambiguously documented what really happened, and there's no excuse for you spreading that misinformation. https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/04/05/faq-on-ceo-resignation/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/04/05/faq-on-ceo-resignat... Q: Was Brendan Eich fired? A: No, Brendan Eich resigned. Brendan himself said: “I have decided to resign as CEO effective April 3rd, and leave Mozilla. Our mission is bigger than any one of us, and under the present circumstances, I cannot be an effective leader. I will be taking time before I decide what to do next.” Brendan Eich also blogged on this topic. Q: Was Brendan Eich asked to resign by the Board? A: No. It was Brendan’s idea to resign, and in fact, once he submitted his resignation, Board members tried to get Brendan to stay at Mozilla in another C-level role.

rsj_hn 6y ago
Then the financial settlement was just for kicks?
- DonHopkins 6y ago
  What financial settlement?
  - rsj_hn 6y ago
    The (substantial) one they were forced to pay Brendan for firing him. You see, CA law protects employees from being fired for political activities done outside work -- this was a law put on the books a long time ago, originally to defend unionization campaigns and communists from being fired, but it means I can donate to the Pro-Life-Anti-Gay-Anti-Black party all day long, attend their conventions, give speeches, etc, and it's illegal for you to fire me for that. Funny how so few people know about this law. That's why they had to come to a settlement to pay him so that he would agree to leave and not pursue his rights under the law.
    - 6y ago

d3nj4l 6y ago

It's great that a user-centered protest against a CEO who literally donated to ban gay marriage is considered "virtue signalling". And that's not even considering that Eich was a CEO for all of 11 days before he quit.