4 ms·

I'm no economist, but wouldn't this lead to greater wealth disparity? When money leaks out, it leaks in to somewhere else. Sort of like connecting bodies of wa

by dkarp 6y ago

I'm no economist, but wouldn't this lead to greater wealth disparity? When money leaks out, it leaks in to somewhere else. Sort of like connecting bodies of water will lower the water level of one body and raise it in another. One place will lose out and another will gain. Unless differences in local taxation/laws/amenities/other lead to wealth/poverty hotspots. With some areas vacuuming up wealth and others repelling it. Is that what this is really solving? Unable to compete on local taxation/laws/amenities/other, cities have to find another way to prevent their wealth being repelled. Sounds like just another wall though. Which can surely never last

maneesh 6y ago
Like entropy, wouldn’t this lead to greater disparity in the short term but uniformness in the long run?
_nalply 6y ago
To stay in the metaphor, what if a group of people discovered how to create negative pressure? This means they know how to suck money out of a community, probably to enrich themselves.
raxxorrax 6y ago
With the experience of the Euro and the vastly different countries under different legislation, I think this is far too naive. The common currency was a bad decision in my opinion. Sure, now legislation is getting "normalized" (I love the jargon), so that nobody is happy with it anymore. I don't think I would want that for anybody. It is like a marriage that doesn't really work. Complete detachment of capital that was created in one place is not a great idea. That doesn't mean other places cannot grow and it doesn't mean there is no exchange.
- mschuster91 6y ago
  The Euro was and is not as bad IMO as many people make it to be. I'm half Croat, half German and I remember when visiting Croatia pre-Euro rollout that you had to do three currency exchanges along the trip - from Deutsche Mark to Austrian Schilling to Slovenian Tolar to Croatian Kuna. Today? It's only the Croatian Kuna which is probably going away in 2023-2025. Everywhere else I can pay with a credit card without paying any "currency conversion" fees or exchange rates far away from actual market rates. And especially you don't lose hours upon hours on useless border control any more (with the exception of the SL-HR border and the idiocy at the German border). And it's not just tourism. Euro + SEPA + free movement between countries are what fueled the growth of the European economy pre-rona. That all of this got attacked in the recent years (no matter if Italy/Greece threatening/being threatened with Euro removal or Germany's Seehofer introducing border controls again to "combat immigration" aka get rid of refugees) is saddening. The people who want to dial back European unification are going to cost Europe a lot, especially the ability to compete with the US on the global stage. Do note that this does not mean there are no problems relating to the Euro - especially the economic disparity between the powerhouses Germany/France and the (South) Eastern European countries - but these should be solved by wealth transfers and nation building, not by risking all progress of the last decades!
  - dmurray 6y ago
    Eliminating the costs of currency conversion was the most obvious change for the average European, and very welcome. But economically it was insignificant compared to the effects of establishing a common monetary policy.
  - PaulRobinson 6y ago
    Remain-voting Briton here. The Euro has nothing to do with border control or free movement, free trade, standardisation or fishing quotas. It has nothing to do with immigration policy, the Dublin treaty, or even the Maastricht treaty. There is no doubt that central European monetary policy has harmed Italy and Greece. It likely contributed to the Catalonian vote for independence, too and is also squeezing Portugal in ways that are making the citizenship sit up and take notice. Britain was successfully showing it was possible to have free movement & trade and significant collaboration inside the EU's organisations and projects without a single currency or monetary policy. Sadly, the Dublin treaty was not being enforced that led - and still leads to this very day - to hysterical media coverage that turned public opinion against the whole project. The EU's inability to flex on that was one of many contributory factors to the Brexit vote, but so was the drive for tighter political and economic unification. That is now causing other countries to have their own exit movements gain attention. If the EU does not pull back there is a real risk those movements will gain more momentum and the project will end. People aren't interested in competing with the US on the global stage. They want a home, a family and fulfilling work and social lives. The technocrats trying to wave their genitals don't care about the damage they do, as long as the EU rises in league tables with ever bigger numbers. I believe a reformed EU is the only future where we get any of the benefits of the original ideals. It's not clear to me you need to have a common currency to do that. It's not even clear to me you need a Parliament to do that, never mind one that moves between two cities regularly.
macawfish 6y ago
It leaks into crusty oligarch coffins

by dkarp 6y ago

maneesh 6y ago

Like entropy, wouldn’t this lead to greater disparity in the short term but uniformness in the long run?

_nalply 6y ago

To stay in the metaphor, what if a group of people discovered how to create negative pressure? This means they know how to suck money out of a community, probably to enrich themselves.

raxxorrax 6y ago

With the experience of the Euro and the vastly different countries under different legislation, I think this is far too naive. The common currency was a bad decision in my opinion. Sure, now legislation is getting "normalized" (I love the jargon), so that nobody is happy with it anymore. I don't think I would want that for anybody. It is like a marriage that doesn't really work. Complete detachment of capital that was created in one place is not a great idea. That doesn't mean other places cannot grow and it doesn't mean there is no exchange.

mschuster91 6y ago
The Euro was and is not as bad IMO as many people make it to be. I'm half Croat, half German and I remember when visiting Croatia pre-Euro rollout that you had to do three currency exchanges along the trip - from Deutsche Mark to Austrian Schilling to Slovenian Tolar to Croatian Kuna. Today? It's only the Croatian Kuna which is probably going away in 2023-2025. Everywhere else I can pay with a credit card without paying any "currency conversion" fees or exchange rates far away from actual market rates. And especially you don't lose hours upon hours on useless border control any more (with the exception of the SL-HR border and the idiocy at the German border). And it's not just tourism. Euro + SEPA + free movement between countries are what fueled the growth of the European economy pre-rona. That all of this got attacked in the recent years (no matter if Italy/Greece threatening/being threatened with Euro removal or Germany's Seehofer introducing border controls again to "combat immigration" aka get rid of refugees) is saddening. The people who want to dial back European unification are going to cost Europe a lot, especially the ability to compete with the US on the global stage. Do note that this does not mean there are no problems relating to the Euro - especially the economic disparity between the powerhouses Germany/France and the (South) Eastern European countries - but these should be solved by wealth transfers and nation building, not by risking all progress of the last decades!
- dmurray 6y ago
  Eliminating the costs of currency conversion was the most obvious change for the average European, and very welcome. But economically it was insignificant compared to the effects of establishing a common monetary policy.
- PaulRobinson 6y ago
  Remain-voting Briton here. The Euro has nothing to do with border control or free movement, free trade, standardisation or fishing quotas. It has nothing to do with immigration policy, the Dublin treaty, or even the Maastricht treaty. There is no doubt that central European monetary policy has harmed Italy and Greece. It likely contributed to the Catalonian vote for independence, too and is also squeezing Portugal in ways that are making the citizenship sit up and take notice. Britain was successfully showing it was possible to have free movement & trade and significant collaboration inside the EU's organisations and projects without a single currency or monetary policy. Sadly, the Dublin treaty was not being enforced that led - and still leads to this very day - to hysterical media coverage that turned public opinion against the whole project. The EU's inability to flex on that was one of many contributory factors to the Brexit vote, but so was the drive for tighter political and economic unification. That is now causing other countries to have their own exit movements gain attention. If the EU does not pull back there is a real risk those movements will gain more momentum and the project will end. People aren't interested in competing with the US on the global stage. They want a home, a family and fulfilling work and social lives. The technocrats trying to wave their genitals don't care about the damage they do, as long as the EU rises in league tables with ever bigger numbers. I believe a reformed EU is the only future where we get any of the benefits of the original ideals. It's not clear to me you need to have a common currency to do that. It's not even clear to me you need a Parliament to do that, never mind one that moves between two cities regularly.

macawfish 6y ago

It leaks into crusty oligarch coffins