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It strikes me that these articles are always biased in the direction of the benefits of being an employee. I have several friends that actively choose to be con

It strikes me that these articles are always biased in the direction of the benefits of being an employee. I have several friends that actively choose to be contractors because they prefer the (legally protected) flexibility to decide their own hours, among other things. It's a personal decision, and there are upsides and downsides in both directions. Sure - some (non-insignificant) portion of Uber and Lyft drivers would like to be employees. But surely some (also non-insignificant) portion would prefer to be contractors for Uber and Lyft and keep the legal protections that come with that. These articles always make it seem like it's a no-brainer win for all drivers no matter what, but it's never seemed so clear cut to me.

vmception 6y ago
You’re not missing anything. There is a populist slant to one specific outcome that doesn't factor in the populace itself. The most marginalized and desperate gain more from employment structure.
munk-a 6y ago
I think the core issue as to why employeeship is favored is that those folks that want the freedom of contracting have more personal power and are less disadvantaged compared to the employer. If you are choosing to favor the flexibility of your own hours over other work benefits then you have a much more secure source of income than a lot of working Americans. I think that ensuring that those poorest off have the ability to keep themselves above water is vital - and while I think everyone should be able to better control their work-life balance we live in a society where that isn't valued, so I'm not holding my breath.
- cycrutchfield 6y ago
  Then that is for the government to provide, not for a company to provide.
  - munk-a 6y ago
    This lawsuit was filed by the state of California - this is how the government is providing it. It might be weird (and it is really weird to look at the US) but most of your regulations seem to work by hoping people do good things and then trying to sue the bad actors enough times that everyone backs off of doing not good things. I'd love to see the US government actually step up to the healthcare plate though - especially after so many years of terrible FDA & Dept. of Edu. policies have led to widespread obesity. Personal responsibility doesn't really work as an excuse when your entire country is an outrageous outlier compared to the rest of the world - that seems more systemic.
    - lolpython 6y ago
      I definitely want a gov't healthcare solution here, but I don't think that it's the whole picture. Australia is worse off[1] and they have a better system [1] https://www.smh.com.au/national/australians-are-fat-and-getting-fatter-says-national-report-card-20180619-p4zmgt.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/australians-are-fat-and-gett...
yingw787 6y ago
Are they software contractors making a couple hundred an hour, or Lyft/Uber drivers making a $25 an hour? I think the problem some people see is many Lyft/Uber drivers don't have that wealth of choice.
JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
Some things, like not being able to set their own rates, meant drivers were never contractors, even if they wanted the perks of contracting (e.g, choose your own hours). Saying 'I wish to be a contractor' isn't legally sufficient: the agreement needs to permit setting rates.
- foogazi 6y ago
  Do contractors really set their own rates?
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    Yes? Who else would set them? Pedantically, the market sets the rates, but the contractor is the one with the power to say yes or no. Gig platforms take that power away (either through a reduction in rating or deplatfoming if you decline work requests). This is simply closing a loophole gig platforms were built on (misclassifying workers in violation of labor law).
    - carlosdp 6y ago
      > Gig platforms take that power away. Pretty sure drivers have to "accept" a ride, isn't that agreeing to a rate?
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        Based on court cases these articles are reporting on and modifications platforms have been making to driver interfaces due to AB5, no.
        emteycz 6y ago
        Based on reality, how is that different from IT contracting where I am responding to a contract with predetermined MD rate?
      - JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
linuxftw 6y ago
I'm an employee, I pretty much decide my own hours. Sometimes it's 20 hours per week, sometimes it's 60, most of the time it's around 40. I can work Saturday and not Monday, I can work 4-10's and take Friday off, etc. Uber and Lyft employees are paid on commission. Uber and Lyft don't call it commission, but that's exactly what it is. You get X% of your sales, with bonuses, etc. For me, price was never the primary motivator of using Uber or Lyft. It's the convenience and having a well known brand that will more likely than not actually come pick me up.
newacct583 6y ago
I don't see where you're getting that "bias" accusation. The subtitle of the article is literally written from the company's perspective ("A stunning court ruling puts Uber and Lyft in a tight spot"), and not the drivers'. In fact the benefits to drivers as employees don't even get treated until the end of the second paragraph, after the author has explained things like the already-filed appeal. Honestly, I think objectively I'd look at this as very much sympathetic to the employers, if I had to assign bias (though honestly it's fairly neutral). As far as the law goes: this result was coming for sure, the only surprise here is the fact that it happened via injuction. The California "AB5" law under which the suit was filed is a new law from last year, and it was very much written with the intent to make gig economy positions into "employee" relationships. There's a link in the article to this explainer, which is pretty good: https://www.californiaemploymentlawreport.com/2019/03/understanding-the-abc-test-for-independent-contractors-in-california/ https://www.californiaemploymentlawreport.com/2019/03/unders...
unstrafed 6y ago
I was a 1099 contractor for several years and couldn't agree more. It drove me nuts when I'd read articles like this, since I had made a conscious choice not to be an employee, for all of the pros and cons that implies.
- davinic 6y ago
  That option is still completely possible under this law. One of the provisions that allows you to remain a contractor is "The worker is customarily engaged in an independently established trade, occupation, or business of the same nature as that involved in the work performed." I work as a 1099 contractor under my own LLC consulting business. This is valid under CA law. The law is meant to protect people who are unfairly classified as contractors outside of a trade.
  - macinjosh 6y ago
    > The law is meant to protect people who are unfairly classified as contractors outside of a trade. While that may be, we all know that laws aren't interpreted based on their intended meaning. They are interpreted as one or more judges sees fit.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      The law at issue simply codifies (and adds some new exceptions to, allowing what otherwise would be employees to be contractors) the California Supreme Court’s interpretation of the law that existed before it was passed.
heavyset_go 6y ago
> I have several friends that actively choose to be contractors because they prefer the (legally protected) flexibility to decide their own hours Those legal protections can be enforced by those who have the means to hire a lawyer. Yes, white collar contractors often get to enjoy the legally enshrined protections to decide how, when and where their work is done. They are often paid twice as much or more than their salaried peers to make up for the increased costs of self-employment and lack of employer provided benefits. Blue collar workers working as contractors are almost always doing so not for their own benefit, but for the economic benefit of their employers. The workers get little say in how, when or where their work is done. Their pay does not reflect the increased cost of self-employment, and they are not offered benefits. Uber drivers can't even set their own rates. As an aside, there are plenty of people employed as employees with flexible hours and schedules in the US.
- Game_Ender 6y ago
  Uber drivers can set their own rates in some parts of CA [0]. It’s a pretty big change brought out by these lawsuits to make the drivers as independent as possible. 0 - https://www.npr.org/2020/01/28/800437791/due-to-new-california-law-uber-allows-some-drivers-to-set-their-own-rates https://www.npr.org/2020/01/28/800437791/due-to-new-californ...
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    That's a weird message for Uber to send, that Uber drivers are only contractors in some parts of California where judges are upholding the law, but in the rest of the US Uber drivers are employees.
    - stickfigure 6y ago
      Why is that weird? If the rules vary by jurisdiction, I expect compliance to follow suit. I suspect that you're implying some sort of objective universal metaphysical state of "being an employee" or "being a contractor", but that's pretty clearly false.
henryfjordan 6y ago
> I have several friends that actively choose to be contractors because they prefer the (legally protected) flexibility to decide their own hours, among other things. It's a personal decision, and there are upsides and downsides in both directions. What "legal protections" are you talking about? Uber can put out a notification right now that if you don't take 1 ride in the next hour that you are banned from the platform and there's nothing your friends could do about it. A contractor gets to work w/e hours they want because they are their own boss and collect their own contracted work. Uber basically forms a new contract with a driver per-ride. There's no promise of future rides, and Uber has every right to withhold new rides for whatever reason, including that they do not like your schedule.
chx 6y ago
I thought flextime is totally a thing.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  Flextime does not mean you can work 5 hours per week.
davinic 6y ago
Your friends could still be considered contractors under this law. One of the provisions that allows you to remain a contractor is that "the worker is customarily engaged in an independently established trade, occupation, or business of the same nature as that involved in the work performed." The other prongs of the test have long been part of IRS law. I work as a 1099 contractor doing software engineering under my own LLC consulting business. This is valid under CA law. The law is meant to protect people who are unfairly classified as contractors outside of a trade, not restrict choice of those of us already working in this capacity.
KorematsuFred 6y ago
These articles are written by people who have incentive to write such articles. Those who are contractors do not bother running around asking journalists to write stories about how much they enjoy being independent they just focus on driving Uber. A small % of people on other hand try to create a lobby for this sort of things and the opportunist politicians will use this to arm twist Uber and Lyft to seek rent. This creates a need for journalists who write these biased stories.
specialist 6y ago
Uber drivers invest $20k for opportunity to earn $15/hr. How much do your contracting friends invest? What's their compensation?
- mysterEFrank 6y ago
  That's not fair. It's like claiming that airbnb hosts spend 500k to earn 100 dollars a night. Most people own cars anyways, this is an opportunity for them to make money off of that investment.
  - specialist 6y ago
    Unfair how? That's the calculus. The sharing economy, gig economy, concessionaire model, MLM ponzi, franchise system, value-added reseller channel are minor variations of a time proven wealth transfer scheme. The mark provides the capital and labor, and carries most of the risk. The landlord, platform, broker, aggregator extracts all of the profit, value, wealth. Any time a serf prospers is accidental. And quickly remedied. By any other name, right? It's be nice if the critics would reject the frame. Instead of phrases like late stage capitalism, just speak plainly. It's feudalism. Repackaged and rebranded. But still just plain old feudalism.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    Most of the cost of a car is in mileage based depreciation--especially in areas where rust from salt in the winter isn't a problem.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  So are you claiming Uber drivers buy cars solely for the purpose of becoming Uber drivers?
  - mlthoughts2018 6y ago
    That is true of most drivers who depend on the income for a living.
  - 6y ago
pizza 6y ago
Being an employee and setting your own hours are not mutually exclusive
nabla9 6y ago
> flexibility to decide their own hours That is possible for employees as well. Part time employment is also possible. What is different is ability to set rates etc.
jariel 6y ago
"It's a personal decision" It's not a decision if they have no choice in the matter (one way or another). Large companies can use their massive leverage to force sub-optimal conditions which are in their favour. Though there are definitely arguments to be made for 'prefer contractor' - there is no doubt, that on the aggregate, there are huge, systematic problems with the new 'gig economy' that need to be sorted out. Free markets work when people have skills and at least some leverage, but at the bottom end, where people are less skilled, it doesn't work well, which is why we need to have minimum wage, possibly unions in some cases etc.. New economy, new rules.
starfallg 6y ago
> I have several friends that actively choose to be contractors I've worked many years as a contractor billing at a daily rate. The difference being that I can choose to enter permanent employment any time I wanted, due to the field we work in. It's not the same as contracting for Uber or Lyft. Not even close. Just some perspective here, not discounting what you said.
mkoubaa 6y ago
given that progressives, myself included, tend to believe healthcare and retirement should be assured with or without employment I am baffled that some are against gig work in principle. with those two entitlements gig work is the most worker friendly approach to employment. What am I missing?
jacobwilliamroy 6y ago
What legal protections? Most "contractors" are actually employed by their own personal shell companies, specifically because there is no meaningful protection for contractors. No protection from IRS, from customers, from law enforcement, from health insurers, from COVID. But you get to make your own hours, and work with no bosses no homework no bedtimes no rules, and that's cool I guess.
wavepruner 6y ago
I'm an on-and-off Uber driver. It's a great gig to supplement my income. As someone who has many limitations from a disability, it's almost impossible to find a job that classifies me as an employee. I just don't get hired. And I need to take a break when I need to take a break. I can't have someone dictating my hours for me. In my city, which fortunately is not in California, being classified as an Uber employee would destroy my 10-20 hour weeks at $20-$30/hour. The key is to work during busy times and for $30+/hour you generally have to be entertaining to get tips (which I have tons of fun doing). If you work during slow times, then it's $10/hour or less. Busy times are too nuanced for a manager to determine when the best time to work is. And I don't want to subsidize other drivers with my hard work because they don't want to do the market research to know when to drive. Maybe Uber can keep all the incentives the same (like surge) and classify drivers as employees, but I doubt it.
- ec109685 6y ago
  Nurses have a lot of these benefits. You can work certain shifts for more money than other shifts. Similarly restaurant workers.
  - wavepruner 6y ago
    Incorrect. I cannot do these jobs. I would quickly lose my ability to walk and use my hands. And no one hires someone who randomly needs to take weeks off and can only work 5-10 hours a week when they can work at all. Not sure why you think you know what my limitations are. Or where you get the idea that employers actually hire disabled people. Look at the unemployment rate for disabled people.
    - ec109685 6y ago
      No, I am not saying you can be a nurse. I am saying there are jobs out there that Uber can model a employer / employee relationship after that will still give you the flexibility you desire and need.
      - 6y ago
peterpeppers 6y ago
HN FACT CHECK: IRS Common Law Rules for Determining Status: Behavioral: Does the company control or have the right to control what the worker does and how the worker does his or her job? Financial: Are the business aspects of the worker’s job controlled by the payer? (these include things like how worker is paid, whether expenses are reimbursed, who provides tools/supplies, etc.) Type of Relationship: Are there written contracts or employee type benefits? Will the relationship continue and is the work performed a key aspect of the business? Source: https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-self-employed-or-employee https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe... CA ABC Test: Autonomy. The worker must be free from the control and direction of the hiring entity with regard to how the work is performed. Business Dissimilarity. The worker’s labor or services must fall outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business. Custom of the Worker. The worker must be customarily engaged in an independently established trade, occupation, or business of the same nature as that involved in the work performed. Source: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=2750.3&lawCode=LAB https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...
tdeck 6y ago
I don't see why Uber couldn't offer that same flexibility to employees. I'm an employee and I have a lot of flexibility about when and how much I work - that's a matter of policy that Uber could offer if they chose to.
ec109685 6y ago
What behavior on the worker side will being classified as an employee preclude? E.g. nurses are employees but in many cases set their own hours and take on more shifts if need be. Same for restaurant workers.
septillianator 6y ago
There are alot of cities that have so many drivers uber and lyft wouldnt even be able to employ them all. If all of them were required to be employees, there are many drivers that may be out of a source of income. Personally, i think that its the contractor agreement that should be drawn into questiom. There are rules tgat are forced upon by uner and lyft that gives drivers no option but to agree to. Secondly, is this really even needed to be a talking point now? Not only are we in a pandemic with so much uncertainty relating to drivers not knowing even if they can go back to driving, bit alos just with autonomous cars likely to be here within 5 years.
all_blue_chucks 6y ago
It should be illegal to pay any form of wages, whether gig work or 9to5, without paying into social security, medicare, medicaid, and unemployment insurance. This pandemic has proven that EVERYONE needs unemployment insurance, and it is already well-known that everyone needs income and healthcare in retirement. Sp sure, let people do gig work on their own time, but don't let them opt out of the basic social safety nets we all need to survive.
- kalleboo 6y ago
  I'm not American so I'm curious, do contractors not have to pay into these systems themselves? I'm from a European country, and if you're self-employed and working contracts, when you do your taxes, all the social insurance stuff instead gets paid by you directly (so your total income tax is much higher as you're paying all the employment taxes that are normally hidden from you)
  - bkor 6y ago
    In Netherlands you can skip out on paying various things, e.g. pension, and various social insurances. E.g. to get paid if you're not working any more, work disability, long time sickness pay. Various companies forced people to become fake contractors. They didn't pay them enough that these fake contractors actually could still have the same social benefits/security. This resulted in the government bailing out loads of contractors. Basically the "profit for the company, losses for the government" way of working.
threepio 6y ago
I'm afraid you're repeating Uber's favorite talking point, which is that everyone should respect the worker's decision to be an employee or contractor. Nobody disputes that Uber can have employees or contractors (or both), or that drivers should, in principle, be able to choose what status they hold. The problem is that Uber currently exerts so much control over its "independent contractor" relationships that they have become, as a matter of law, employment relationships. Moreover, in practical terms drivers don't end up with the choice they ought to. If they want any working relationship with Uber, they have to accept a mash-up of all the burdens of employment minus many of the benefits of being a contractor.
- pbreit 6y ago
  Uber drivers literally need not even show up. What "control" are you referring to?
  - zaarn 6y ago
    Standard employees also can just not show up as they want. Entirely possible for both contractors and employees.
    - pbreit 6y ago
      Employee would be fired.
      - zaarn 6y ago
        No, there is plenty of employee arrangements where you can show up whenever you want, as long as you meet the weekly quota of hours.
        pbreit 6y ago
        Uber/Lyft drivers have 0 quotas.
devalgo 6y ago
> I have several friends that actively choose to be contractors because they prefer the (legally protected) flexibility to decide their own hours, among other things I'm sure the flexibility is nice when you are making $100+ per hour but drivers make a tenth of that and struggle to get health insurance
tempsy 6y ago
lol you're literally just regurgitating Uber's talking points since like 2009
- missedthecue 6y ago
  Just because someone said something doesn't make it wrong.
momokoko 6y ago
You realize there are tons of jobs with employees that allow employees to chose their own hours. There is nothing in this ruling that prevents Uber from allowing people to chose rides _exactly_ as they are doing it now. The changes are: 1. Uber needs to pay into unemployment insurance. 2. Uber needs to pay into workers compensation. 3. Uber needs to pay into social security. 4. Uber needs to collect payroll taxes in advance. 5. Uber cannot discriminate based on protected classes such as race or gender. 6. Uber must comply with the WARN if large scale layoffs occur. 7. Uber has to provide for heath insurance depending in accordance with local and federal laws. 8. Uber needs to verify the legal working status of their drivers 9. And many other things all other businesses pay into and rules they have to follow. We make businesses pay into this because the general public is ends up footing the bill anyway. Like right now where we’re providing Uber drivers with unemployment benefits even though Uber cheated their responsibility. And when a driver gets in an accident and we have to pick up the bill of unpaid hospital bills and disability payments. Flexibility has nothing to do with it. Paying into the system everyone else has to and following the rules everyone else needs to follow is.
- rockinghigh 6y ago
  Do you have examples of jobs where employees choose their own hours and can work for competitors?
  - ec109685 6y ago
    Nurses, e.g. https://allnurses.com/working-two-hospitals-t591829/ https://allnurses.com/working-two-hospitals-t591829/
  - momokoko 6y ago
    Do you have a link to the California law that states that an employee is not allowed to work for any other company? If anything California has specific non-compete laws and moonlighting laws that forbid a company from preventing their employees from working for another company. Hilariously, you are so far off that you don’t realize that the only legal way Uber could prevent their drivers from working for Lyft in California was if they were contractors and not employees Where did you get this information?
alkonaut 6y ago
It seems to me that in the larger perspective it could erode workers rights in other places I’m guessing many would rather see Uber drivers all be forced to be employees even if 99% don’t want to, than a spreading erosion of workers rights.
throwaway987978 6y ago
There's no reason why you can't be an employee but also be in control of your own hours. It's not much different from a part-time job that I had while going to school. I'd provide my manager a list of times that I was available to work for the week and he'd slot me into shifts. Technology has decreased the lead time needed to let someone know that you're available to work to 0. There's absolutely no reason why that should mean that you can't be an employee.
freeone3000 6y ago
Sure, it would be beneficial if they had this flexibility, and nothing here prohibits this. Literally nothing prevents an employer allowing an employee from setting their own hours. This ruling is a reclassification - the work that they have been doing in the manner they've been doing it is already employment. Or, in other words: the current relationship doesn't have to change a single bit, they just get additional benefits.
dilandau 6y ago
Doesn't understand the difference between free-lance software engineer and indentured gypsy cab driver. ...not going to make it.
aslfksdfl 6y ago
Uber and Lyft could still grant the same flexibility to employees. If they don't wouldn't it kind of blow their entire "contracting is better anyway" argument out of the water?
Proven 6y ago
Blame it on the statist-dominated HN (and not just HN). State is supposed to order about individuals how to manage their relationships because individuals are too stupid to figure out how to arrange their affairs. In the case you wonder who should decide on behalf of State, of course it's the experts, such as readers of HN. Never leave it to free individuals what can be decided by state-appointed experts.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
marcrosoft 6y ago
Free choice to work and free choice to pair drivers with riders is as close to a free market as you can find. It works great. As soon as regulation enters the room the dynamic changes.
jkaplowitz 6y ago
There is no legal obstacle to Uber/Lyft continuing to allow drivers all of the flexibility they currently allow, even if they have to treat them as employees. That can even be legally protected in an enforceable way by the employment contract if desired, as can any other current Uber/Lyft driver flexibility you're referencing. The only thing that is being lost here is the inability of Uber/Lyft to pay less than a minimum wage and otherwise deprive the drivers of the benefits that employees are entitled to. Anyway, it's not like Uber/Lyft were giving drivers the choice whether to be contractors or employees so that the drivers could pick the status they prefer - nor does the law ever truly allow that except when the genuine nature of the services relationship is adjusted based on the answer to legitimately conform to the desired status. They're forcing everyone to pick the status that's generally more expensive and precarious for the worker.
dmode 6y ago
The thing is that the option to be a contractor can always exist, along with having an option to be a full time employee. Generally, I agree that a company shouldn't be an entity that its core workforce is a bunch of "temps"
op00to 6y ago
I am a w2 employee and I choose my own hours.
jordanbeiber 6y ago
Are your contractor friends lower-wage workers? It’s quite a different story being a specialist contractor compared to a easily replacable minimum-wage earner.
arendtio 6y ago
So why don't they offer both options then?
cerebellum42 6y ago
Being an employee officially and being able to choose your own hours are not mutually exclusive. You can be an employee without having fixed hours or a fixed salary.
Gasp0de 6y ago
Why does this have to be an exclusive or? I don't see how drivers would not be able to choose their own hours or the amount of work just because Uber has to treat them as employees? I live in Germany, I work when and as much as I want, and my employer still pays health insurance and I get sick leave and paid holidays, based on the average time I work.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

vmception 6y ago

You’re not missing anything. There is a populist slant to one specific outcome that doesn't factor in the populace itself. The most marginalized and desperate gain more from employment structure.

munk-a 6y ago

I think the core issue as to why employeeship is favored is that those folks that want the freedom of contracting have more personal power and are less disadvantaged compared to the employer. If you are choosing to favor the flexibility of your own hours over other work benefits then you have a much more secure source of income than a lot of working Americans. I think that ensuring that those poorest off have the ability to keep themselves above water is vital - and while I think everyone should be able to better control their work-life balance we live in a society where that isn't valued, so I'm not holding my breath.

cycrutchfield 6y ago
Then that is for the government to provide, not for a company to provide.
- munk-a 6y ago
  This lawsuit was filed by the state of California - this is how the government is providing it. It might be weird (and it is really weird to look at the US) but most of your regulations seem to work by hoping people do good things and then trying to sue the bad actors enough times that everyone backs off of doing not good things. I'd love to see the US government actually step up to the healthcare plate though - especially after so many years of terrible FDA & Dept. of Edu. policies have led to widespread obesity. Personal responsibility doesn't really work as an excuse when your entire country is an outrageous outlier compared to the rest of the world - that seems more systemic.
  - lolpython 6y ago
    I definitely want a gov't healthcare solution here, but I don't think that it's the whole picture. Australia is worse off[1] and they have a better system [1] https://www.smh.com.au/national/australians-are-fat-and-getting-fatter-says-national-report-card-20180619-p4zmgt.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/australians-are-fat-and-gett...

yingw787 6y ago

Are they software contractors making a couple hundred an hour, or Lyft/Uber drivers making a $25 an hour? I think the problem some people see is many Lyft/Uber drivers don't have that wealth of choice.

JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago

Some things, like not being able to set their own rates, meant drivers were never contractors, even if they wanted the perks of contracting (e.g, choose your own hours). Saying 'I wish to be a contractor' isn't legally sufficient: the agreement needs to permit setting rates.

foogazi 6y ago
Do contractors really set their own rates?
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Yes? Who else would set them? Pedantically, the market sets the rates, but the contractor is the one with the power to say yes or no. Gig platforms take that power away (either through a reduction in rating or deplatfoming if you decline work requests). This is simply closing a loophole gig platforms were built on (misclassifying workers in violation of labor law).
  - carlosdp 6y ago
    > Gig platforms take that power away. Pretty sure drivers have to "accept" a ride, isn't that agreeing to a rate?
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      Based on court cases these articles are reporting on and modifications platforms have been making to driver interfaces due to AB5, no.
      - emteycz 6y ago
        Based on reality, how is that different from IT contracting where I am responding to a contract with predetermined MD rate?
    - JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago

linuxftw 6y ago

I'm an employee, I pretty much decide my own hours. Sometimes it's 20 hours per week, sometimes it's 60, most of the time it's around 40. I can work Saturday and not Monday, I can work 4-10's and take Friday off, etc. Uber and Lyft employees are paid on commission. Uber and Lyft don't call it commission, but that's exactly what it is. You get X% of your sales, with bonuses, etc. For me, price was never the primary motivator of using Uber or Lyft. It's the convenience and having a well known brand that will more likely than not actually come pick me up.

newacct583 6y ago

I don't see where you're getting that "bias" accusation. The subtitle of the article is literally written from the company's perspective ("A stunning court ruling puts Uber and Lyft in a tight spot"), and not the drivers'. In fact the benefits to drivers as employees don't even get treated until the end of the second paragraph, after the author has explained things like the already-filed appeal. Honestly, I think objectively I'd look at this as very much sympathetic to the employers, if I had to assign bias (though honestly it's fairly neutral). As far as the law goes: this result was coming for sure, the only surprise here is the fact that it happened via injuction. The California "AB5" law under which the suit was filed is a new law from last year, and it was very much written with the intent to make gig economy positions into "employee" relationships. There's a link in the article to this explainer, which is pretty good: https://www.californiaemploymentlawreport.com/2019/03/understanding-the-abc-test-for-independent-contractors-in-california/ https://www.californiaemploymentlawreport.com/2019/03/unders...

unstrafed 6y ago

I was a 1099 contractor for several years and couldn't agree more. It drove me nuts when I'd read articles like this, since I had made a conscious choice not to be an employee, for all of the pros and cons that implies.

davinic 6y ago
That option is still completely possible under this law. One of the provisions that allows you to remain a contractor is "The worker is customarily engaged in an independently established trade, occupation, or business of the same nature as that involved in the work performed." I work as a 1099 contractor under my own LLC consulting business. This is valid under CA law. The law is meant to protect people who are unfairly classified as contractors outside of a trade.
- macinjosh 6y ago
  > The law is meant to protect people who are unfairly classified as contractors outside of a trade. While that may be, we all know that laws aren't interpreted based on their intended meaning. They are interpreted as one or more judges sees fit.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    The law at issue simply codifies (and adds some new exceptions to, allowing what otherwise would be employees to be contractors) the California Supreme Court’s interpretation of the law that existed before it was passed.

heavyset_go 6y ago

> I have several friends that actively choose to be contractors because they prefer the (legally protected) flexibility to decide their own hours Those legal protections can be enforced by those who have the means to hire a lawyer. Yes, white collar contractors often get to enjoy the legally enshrined protections to decide how, when and where their work is done. They are often paid twice as much or more than their salaried peers to make up for the increased costs of self-employment and lack of employer provided benefits. Blue collar workers working as contractors are almost always doing so not for their own benefit, but for the economic benefit of their employers. The workers get little say in how, when or where their work is done. Their pay does not reflect the increased cost of self-employment, and they are not offered benefits. Uber drivers can't even set their own rates. As an aside, there are plenty of people employed as employees with flexible hours and schedules in the US.

Game_Ender 6y ago
Uber drivers can set their own rates in some parts of CA [0]. It’s a pretty big change brought out by these lawsuits to make the drivers as independent as possible. 0 - https://www.npr.org/2020/01/28/800437791/due-to-new-california-law-uber-allows-some-drivers-to-set-their-own-rates https://www.npr.org/2020/01/28/800437791/due-to-new-californ...
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  That's a weird message for Uber to send, that Uber drivers are only contractors in some parts of California where judges are upholding the law, but in the rest of the US Uber drivers are employees.
  - stickfigure 6y ago
    Why is that weird? If the rules vary by jurisdiction, I expect compliance to follow suit. I suspect that you're implying some sort of objective universal metaphysical state of "being an employee" or "being a contractor", but that's pretty clearly false.

henryfjordan 6y ago

> I have several friends that actively choose to be contractors because they prefer the (legally protected) flexibility to decide their own hours, among other things. It's a personal decision, and there are upsides and downsides in both directions. What "legal protections" are you talking about? Uber can put out a notification right now that if you don't take 1 ride in the next hour that you are banned from the platform and there's nothing your friends could do about it. A contractor gets to work w/e hours they want because they are their own boss and collect their own contracted work. Uber basically forms a new contract with a driver per-ride. There's no promise of future rides, and Uber has every right to withhold new rides for whatever reason, including that they do not like your schedule.

chx 6y ago

I thought flextime is totally a thing.

ekianjo 6y ago
Flextime does not mean you can work 5 hours per week.

davinic 6y ago

Your friends could still be considered contractors under this law. One of the provisions that allows you to remain a contractor is that "the worker is customarily engaged in an independently established trade, occupation, or business of the same nature as that involved in the work performed." The other prongs of the test have long been part of IRS law. I work as a 1099 contractor doing software engineering under my own LLC consulting business. This is valid under CA law. The law is meant to protect people who are unfairly classified as contractors outside of a trade, not restrict choice of those of us already working in this capacity.

KorematsuFred 6y ago

These articles are written by people who have incentive to write such articles. Those who are contractors do not bother running around asking journalists to write stories about how much they enjoy being independent they just focus on driving Uber. A small % of people on other hand try to create a lobby for this sort of things and the opportunist politicians will use this to arm twist Uber and Lyft to seek rent. This creates a need for journalists who write these biased stories.

specialist 6y ago

Uber drivers invest $20k for opportunity to earn $15/hr. How much do your contracting friends invest? What's their compensation?

mysterEFrank 6y ago
That's not fair. It's like claiming that airbnb hosts spend 500k to earn 100 dollars a night. Most people own cars anyways, this is an opportunity for them to make money off of that investment.
- specialist 6y ago
  Unfair how? That's the calculus. The sharing economy, gig economy, concessionaire model, MLM ponzi, franchise system, value-added reseller channel are minor variations of a time proven wealth transfer scheme. The mark provides the capital and labor, and carries most of the risk. The landlord, platform, broker, aggregator extracts all of the profit, value, wealth. Any time a serf prospers is accidental. And quickly remedied. By any other name, right? It's be nice if the critics would reject the frame. Instead of phrases like late stage capitalism, just speak plainly. It's feudalism. Repackaged and rebranded. But still just plain old feudalism.
- ghaff 6y ago
  Most of the cost of a car is in mileage based depreciation--especially in areas where rust from salt in the winter isn't a problem.
ekianjo 6y ago
So are you claiming Uber drivers buy cars solely for the purpose of becoming Uber drivers?
- mlthoughts2018 6y ago
  That is true of most drivers who depend on the income for a living.
- 6y ago

pizza 6y ago

Being an employee and setting your own hours are not mutually exclusive

nabla9 6y ago

> flexibility to decide their own hours That is possible for employees as well. Part time employment is also possible. What is different is ability to set rates etc.

jariel 6y ago

"It's a personal decision" It's not a decision if they have no choice in the matter (one way or another). Large companies can use their massive leverage to force sub-optimal conditions which are in their favour. Though there are definitely arguments to be made for 'prefer contractor' - there is no doubt, that on the aggregate, there are huge, systematic problems with the new 'gig economy' that need to be sorted out. Free markets work when people have skills and at least some leverage, but at the bottom end, where people are less skilled, it doesn't work well, which is why we need to have minimum wage, possibly unions in some cases etc.. New economy, new rules.

starfallg 6y ago

> I have several friends that actively choose to be contractors I've worked many years as a contractor billing at a daily rate. The difference being that I can choose to enter permanent employment any time I wanted, due to the field we work in. It's not the same as contracting for Uber or Lyft. Not even close. Just some perspective here, not discounting what you said.

mkoubaa 6y ago

given that progressives, myself included, tend to believe healthcare and retirement should be assured with or without employment I am baffled that some are against gig work in principle. with those two entitlements gig work is the most worker friendly approach to employment. What am I missing?

jacobwilliamroy 6y ago

What legal protections? Most "contractors" are actually employed by their own personal shell companies, specifically because there is no meaningful protection for contractors. No protection from IRS, from customers, from law enforcement, from health insurers, from COVID. But you get to make your own hours, and work with no bosses no homework no bedtimes no rules, and that's cool I guess.

wavepruner 6y ago

I'm an on-and-off Uber driver. It's a great gig to supplement my income. As someone who has many limitations from a disability, it's almost impossible to find a job that classifies me as an employee. I just don't get hired. And I need to take a break when I need to take a break. I can't have someone dictating my hours for me. In my city, which fortunately is not in California, being classified as an Uber employee would destroy my 10-20 hour weeks at $20-$30/hour. The key is to work during busy times and for $30+/hour you generally have to be entertaining to get tips (which I have tons of fun doing). If you work during slow times, then it's $10/hour or less. Busy times are too nuanced for a manager to determine when the best time to work is. And I don't want to subsidize other drivers with my hard work because they don't want to do the market research to know when to drive. Maybe Uber can keep all the incentives the same (like surge) and classify drivers as employees, but I doubt it.

ec109685 6y ago
Nurses have a lot of these benefits. You can work certain shifts for more money than other shifts. Similarly restaurant workers.
- wavepruner 6y ago
  Incorrect. I cannot do these jobs. I would quickly lose my ability to walk and use my hands. And no one hires someone who randomly needs to take weeks off and can only work 5-10 hours a week when they can work at all. Not sure why you think you know what my limitations are. Or where you get the idea that employers actually hire disabled people. Look at the unemployment rate for disabled people.
  - ec109685 6y ago
    No, I am not saying you can be a nurse. I am saying there are jobs out there that Uber can model a employer / employee relationship after that will still give you the flexibility you desire and need.
    - 6y ago

peterpeppers 6y ago

HN FACT CHECK: IRS Common Law Rules for Determining Status: Behavioral: Does the company control or have the right to control what the worker does and how the worker does his or her job? Financial: Are the business aspects of the worker’s job controlled by the payer? (these include things like how worker is paid, whether expenses are reimbursed, who provides tools/supplies, etc.) Type of Relationship: Are there written contracts or employee type benefits? Will the relationship continue and is the work performed a key aspect of the business? Source: https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-self-employed-or-employee https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe... CA ABC Test: Autonomy. The worker must be free from the control and direction of the hiring entity with regard to how the work is performed. Business Dissimilarity. The worker’s labor or services must fall outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business. Custom of the Worker. The worker must be customarily engaged in an independently established trade, occupation, or business of the same nature as that involved in the work performed. Source: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=2750.3&lawCode=LAB https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...

tdeck 6y ago

I don't see why Uber couldn't offer that same flexibility to employees. I'm an employee and I have a lot of flexibility about when and how much I work - that's a matter of policy that Uber could offer if they chose to.

ec109685 6y ago

What behavior on the worker side will being classified as an employee preclude? E.g. nurses are employees but in many cases set their own hours and take on more shifts if need be. Same for restaurant workers.

septillianator 6y ago

There are alot of cities that have so many drivers uber and lyft wouldnt even be able to employ them all. If all of them were required to be employees, there are many drivers that may be out of a source of income. Personally, i think that its the contractor agreement that should be drawn into questiom. There are rules tgat are forced upon by uner and lyft that gives drivers no option but to agree to. Secondly, is this really even needed to be a talking point now? Not only are we in a pandemic with so much uncertainty relating to drivers not knowing even if they can go back to driving, bit alos just with autonomous cars likely to be here within 5 years.

all_blue_chucks 6y ago

It should be illegal to pay any form of wages, whether gig work or 9to5, without paying into social security, medicare, medicaid, and unemployment insurance. This pandemic has proven that EVERYONE needs unemployment insurance, and it is already well-known that everyone needs income and healthcare in retirement. Sp sure, let people do gig work on their own time, but don't let them opt out of the basic social safety nets we all need to survive.

kalleboo 6y ago
I'm not American so I'm curious, do contractors not have to pay into these systems themselves? I'm from a European country, and if you're self-employed and working contracts, when you do your taxes, all the social insurance stuff instead gets paid by you directly (so your total income tax is much higher as you're paying all the employment taxes that are normally hidden from you)
- bkor 6y ago
  In Netherlands you can skip out on paying various things, e.g. pension, and various social insurances. E.g. to get paid if you're not working any more, work disability, long time sickness pay. Various companies forced people to become fake contractors. They didn't pay them enough that these fake contractors actually could still have the same social benefits/security. This resulted in the government bailing out loads of contractors. Basically the "profit for the company, losses for the government" way of working.

threepio 6y ago

I'm afraid you're repeating Uber's favorite talking point, which is that everyone should respect the worker's decision to be an employee or contractor. Nobody disputes that Uber can have employees or contractors (or both), or that drivers should, in principle, be able to choose what status they hold. The problem is that Uber currently exerts so much control over its "independent contractor" relationships that they have become, as a matter of law, employment relationships. Moreover, in practical terms drivers don't end up with the choice they ought to. If they want any working relationship with Uber, they have to accept a mash-up of all the burdens of employment minus many of the benefits of being a contractor.

pbreit 6y ago
Uber drivers literally need not even show up. What "control" are you referring to?
- zaarn 6y ago
  Standard employees also can just not show up as they want. Entirely possible for both contractors and employees.
  - pbreit 6y ago
    Employee would be fired.
    - zaarn 6y ago
      No, there is plenty of employee arrangements where you can show up whenever you want, as long as you meet the weekly quota of hours.
      - pbreit 6y ago
        Uber/Lyft drivers have 0 quotas.

devalgo 6y ago

> I have several friends that actively choose to be contractors because they prefer the (legally protected) flexibility to decide their own hours, among other things I'm sure the flexibility is nice when you are making $100+ per hour but drivers make a tenth of that and struggle to get health insurance

tempsy 6y ago

lol you're literally just regurgitating Uber's talking points since like 2009

missedthecue 6y ago
Just because someone said something doesn't make it wrong.

momokoko 6y ago

You realize there are tons of jobs with employees that allow employees to chose their own hours. There is nothing in this ruling that prevents Uber from allowing people to chose rides _exactly_ as they are doing it now. The changes are: 1. Uber needs to pay into unemployment insurance. 2. Uber needs to pay into workers compensation. 3. Uber needs to pay into social security. 4. Uber needs to collect payroll taxes in advance. 5. Uber cannot discriminate based on protected classes such as race or gender. 6. Uber must comply with the WARN if large scale layoffs occur. 7. Uber has to provide for heath insurance depending in accordance with local and federal laws. 8. Uber needs to verify the legal working status of their drivers 9. And many other things all other businesses pay into and rules they have to follow. We make businesses pay into this because the general public is ends up footing the bill anyway. Like right now where we’re providing Uber drivers with unemployment benefits even though Uber cheated their responsibility. And when a driver gets in an accident and we have to pick up the bill of unpaid hospital bills and disability payments. Flexibility has nothing to do with it. Paying into the system everyone else has to and following the rules everyone else needs to follow is.

rockinghigh 6y ago
Do you have examples of jobs where employees choose their own hours and can work for competitors?
- ec109685 6y ago
  Nurses, e.g. https://allnurses.com/working-two-hospitals-t591829/ https://allnurses.com/working-two-hospitals-t591829/
- momokoko 6y ago
  Do you have a link to the California law that states that an employee is not allowed to work for any other company? If anything California has specific non-compete laws and moonlighting laws that forbid a company from preventing their employees from working for another company. Hilariously, you are so far off that you don’t realize that the only legal way Uber could prevent their drivers from working for Lyft in California was if they were contractors and not employees Where did you get this information?

alkonaut 6y ago

It seems to me that in the larger perspective it could erode workers rights in other places I’m guessing many would rather see Uber drivers all be forced to be employees even if 99% don’t want to, than a spreading erosion of workers rights.

throwaway987978 6y ago

There's no reason why you can't be an employee but also be in control of your own hours. It's not much different from a part-time job that I had while going to school. I'd provide my manager a list of times that I was available to work for the week and he'd slot me into shifts. Technology has decreased the lead time needed to let someone know that you're available to work to 0. There's absolutely no reason why that should mean that you can't be an employee.

freeone3000 6y ago

Sure, it would be beneficial if they had this flexibility, and nothing here prohibits this. Literally nothing prevents an employer allowing an employee from setting their own hours. This ruling is a reclassification - the work that they have been doing in the manner they've been doing it is already employment. Or, in other words: the current relationship doesn't have to change a single bit, they just get additional benefits.

dilandau 6y ago

Doesn't understand the difference between free-lance software engineer and indentured gypsy cab driver. ...not going to make it.

aslfksdfl 6y ago

Uber and Lyft could still grant the same flexibility to employees. If they don't wouldn't it kind of blow their entire "contracting is better anyway" argument out of the water?

Proven 6y ago

Blame it on the statist-dominated HN (and not just HN). State is supposed to order about individuals how to manage their relationships because individuals are too stupid to figure out how to arrange their affairs. In the case you wonder who should decide on behalf of State, of course it's the experts, such as readers of HN. Never leave it to free individuals what can be decided by state-appointed experts.

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marcrosoft 6y ago

Free choice to work and free choice to pair drivers with riders is as close to a free market as you can find. It works great. As soon as regulation enters the room the dynamic changes.

jkaplowitz 6y ago

There is no legal obstacle to Uber/Lyft continuing to allow drivers all of the flexibility they currently allow, even if they have to treat them as employees. That can even be legally protected in an enforceable way by the employment contract if desired, as can any other current Uber/Lyft driver flexibility you're referencing. The only thing that is being lost here is the inability of Uber/Lyft to pay less than a minimum wage and otherwise deprive the drivers of the benefits that employees are entitled to. Anyway, it's not like Uber/Lyft were giving drivers the choice whether to be contractors or employees so that the drivers could pick the status they prefer - nor does the law ever truly allow that except when the genuine nature of the services relationship is adjusted based on the answer to legitimately conform to the desired status. They're forcing everyone to pick the status that's generally more expensive and precarious for the worker.

dmode 6y ago

The thing is that the option to be a contractor can always exist, along with having an option to be a full time employee. Generally, I agree that a company shouldn't be an entity that its core workforce is a bunch of "temps"

op00to 6y ago

I am a w2 employee and I choose my own hours.

jordanbeiber 6y ago

Are your contractor friends lower-wage workers? It’s quite a different story being a specialist contractor compared to a easily replacable minimum-wage earner.

arendtio 6y ago

So why don't they offer both options then?

cerebellum42 6y ago

Being an employee officially and being able to choose your own hours are not mutually exclusive. You can be an employee without having fixed hours or a fixed salary.

Gasp0de 6y ago

Why does this have to be an exclusive or? I don't see how drivers would not be able to choose their own hours or the amount of work just because Uber has to treat them as employees? I live in Germany, I work when and as much as I want, and my employer still pays health insurance and I get sick leave and paid holidays, based on the average time I work.

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