5 ms·

I think what the OP went through is pretty much re-zoning of an agricultural land to commercial/industrial land which probably will run into similar roadblocks

I think what the OP went through is pretty much re-zoning of an agricultural land to commercial/industrial land which probably will run into similar roadblocks in Western world too? Of course, not saying it will take this long but have heard about similar bureaucracy. Small town governments in USA at least are very strict with their zoning codes and based on things what I have heard, changing the zone sometimes require even putting the change in a ballot! Mostly requires council approval I guess but the process is similarly full of red tape. I remember a very similar article by someone who tried to start a business at their home in some US state and the red tape he had to go through.

rohan_shah 6y ago
Yes that's right. It's similar. But the problem is that the whole of India is made up of hundreds and thousands of small towns. And there are hardly any land banks zoned as industrial land because almost all of India is fertile land.
- blntechie 6y ago
  Agree to an extent. Only the industrial parks and other similar areas are zoned as industrial and I guess it’s hard to setup your warehouse for example there? Of course, you had the land which was the primary motivation, if not, SME industrial parks would be the way to go.
praveen9920 6y ago
It is not just about red tape, it is about corruption. Govt. Employees in India join the Govt job only for "alternative" revenue ( bribes ). This process is usually handled by "agents" who knows how much these govt employees expect and provide "easy" services to whoever wants to get shit done. To take an example a simple thing like driving license takes couple of months to get if one is planning not to involve an agent, but you can get driving license ( without knowing any driving ) in 1 month if you have an agent.
- ipnon 6y ago
  It must become simple for a bribery captured in evidence to be prosecuted. This is anarchy otherwise.
  - rohan_shah 6y ago
    It's very hard to capture. All they do is - keep silence. If you understand the cues and pay up yourself, your work will be done otherwise you can keep waiting forever.
    - Chickenosaurus 6y ago
      It's trivial to capture if there is a will. Send an agent who offers a bribe, fire the worker if the bribe is accepted.
  - perryizgr8 6y ago
    > evidence to be prosecuted Just be sure to bribe the police, the judge etc.
  - blntechie 6y ago
    Most of the time, they don’t ask for money explicitly at all but they will put procedural roadblocks so one pick up the cue and bribe them. Like Priority Shipping for a bad analogy. Pay to fasten and smoothen your experience kind of thing. Of course it’s illegal.
    - newen 6y ago
      One trick it to leave a desk drawer half empty and then they go for a tea break. If they come back and they don't see money in their desk drawer, then it's hard for you to complain when they mark something in your forms as incomplete and ask you to redo it or whatever. And the next time you come to the office, you might be accidentally left to wait for a couple of hours and how you do make a decent complaint about that?
    - aitchnyu 6y ago
acomjean 6y ago
>Small town governments in USA at least are very strict with their zoning codes Even cities in the US. I live in a "historic District" in cambridge ma in a big ugly brick building with 35 units. 3 of us wanted to change windows, as they're original 1940s and terrible. So we go to get a permit. The permit department sees "exterior change" looks at the address, and sends it to the historical commission. They won't sign off, we have to attend a hearing. They don't like replacement windows,[1] so we fill out the permit and go to the meeting. We please our case to the four commissioners and no problem. We get the permit, everything was handled professionally, but its a 2 month delay and kind of a pain. I know its encouraging people to do changes without permits. Some of my neighbors (bless their hearts) seem to love to complain about any change, to anything so they're not helping. I can't imagine trying to build something new. (Some renovations were shot down in the meeting and they're invited to work with the commissioners to come up with a compromise.) https://www.cambridgema.gov/historic/permitsApplications https://www.cambridgema.gov/historic/permitsApplications I know restaurants that have had to wait a few months for inspections which delay openings. Its a balance, but sometimes it tips too far. cambridge on windows. [1]https://www.cambridgema.gov/historic/aboutchc/~/media/FF5F4ACDDFB24C1A9A810EE179014735.ashx https://www.cambridgema.gov/historic/aboutchc/~/media/FF5F4A...
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Cambridge is not representative of reality outside of Cambridge.
  - hindsightbias 6y ago
    Double-paned windows are not allowed in several historic neighborhoods I’ve lived or worked in. Pretty sure they’re banned in much of SF.
    - tristor 6y ago
      That's a fit of irony considering that many of the places with the most stringent regulations in this aspect are also places which have taken other actions ostensibly to help the environment. Reducing the energy demands of basic living seems to be more beneficial than nearly any other action that could be taken, such as banning plastic bags and straws.
momokoko 6y ago
Exactly, this is a re-zoning process not “opening a manufacturing plant”. I can almost guarantee this land was purchased for significantly less because it is agricultural land as well. States have plenty of reasonable concerns about re-zoning agricultural land into commercial land. The most obvious being that if there are spills or other environmental issues it could destroy much of the agricultural land around it. Needing to know past owners is to make sure a previous bad actor did not create a new shell company to sell to hide the real owner. The previous owner could have already been banned from commercial development due to the above or other issues. The fact that the author is intentionally misleading this article shows that they are a dishonest actor and is part of why we ended up needing all this procedure.
- manquer 6y ago
  The problem is not the number of documents he had to do, he didn’t have major concerns on that . The bribery expected in many of the depts, broken website, all the delays , lack of responses, after 9 months he is not more than half way into the process is the problem . If they denied him with valid reasoning early on and communicated in reasonable time this won’t be a problem .
- forgot_user1234 6y ago
  If you bothered to read the blog. You would know he was okay with getting certificates from forestry department but he got stuck because of BRIBES.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  > States have plenty of reasonable concerns about re-zoning agricultural land into commercial land. The most obvious being that if there are spills or other environmental issues it could destroy much of the agricultural land around it. Ironically both the Forestry Dept. and the Pollution Control Board were the fastest to certify so maybe this isn't the problem, eh?
- imtringued 6y ago
  The author is dishonest because he refuses to pay bribes? If anything dishonest people have an easier time because they would just pay the bribe. The author doesn't complain about the necessity. He is complaining that compliance doesn't result in receiving a permit.
duxup 6y ago
I think in the US it GREATLY depends on what is going in that location. "Light industrial", at least in my area is a pretty easy thing to rezone by the local authorities. At least it is in my area in suburbia in the twin cities MN. Granted that doesn't mean a town couldn't just say 'no'. On the other hand there's plenty of land already potentially rezoned land you can buy and it's no big deal. Now bigger scale industrial is a whole other story. Nobody wants a smelting plant company to just show up at the city council meeting and announce they bought a bunch of farm land on the edge of the town...
- rohan_shah 6y ago
  There are hardly any lands zoned as "industrial use" in India and all land is agricultural land by default because of the high fertility of land everywhere.
padiyar83 6y ago
Thats right. Majority of the problems here are from re-zoning agricultural land into an industrial one. If you build your manufacturing unit in an existing industrial area you can skip a lot of this type of paperwork.
cryptica 6y ago
I think the problem here is the sheer amount of agencies that need to be dealt with. In other parts of the world, it's not easy but at least you typically just need approval from a single entity (the town council)... The hard part is just waiting; it can take a decade to get approval in some cases.
vikramkr 6y ago
You won't face these overt bribes - there's a difference between red tape and the requirement for bribes

rohan_shah 6y ago

Yes that's right. It's similar. But the problem is that the whole of India is made up of hundreds and thousands of small towns. And there are hardly any land banks zoned as industrial land because almost all of India is fertile land.

blntechie 6y ago
Agree to an extent. Only the industrial parks and other similar areas are zoned as industrial and I guess it’s hard to setup your warehouse for example there? Of course, you had the land which was the primary motivation, if not, SME industrial parks would be the way to go.

praveen9920 6y ago

It is not just about red tape, it is about corruption. Govt. Employees in India join the Govt job only for "alternative" revenue ( bribes ). This process is usually handled by "agents" who knows how much these govt employees expect and provide "easy" services to whoever wants to get shit done. To take an example a simple thing like driving license takes couple of months to get if one is planning not to involve an agent, but you can get driving license ( without knowing any driving ) in 1 month if you have an agent.

ipnon 6y ago
It must become simple for a bribery captured in evidence to be prosecuted. This is anarchy otherwise.
- rohan_shah 6y ago
  It's very hard to capture. All they do is - keep silence. If you understand the cues and pay up yourself, your work will be done otherwise you can keep waiting forever.
  - Chickenosaurus 6y ago
    It's trivial to capture if there is a will. Send an agent who offers a bribe, fire the worker if the bribe is accepted.
- perryizgr8 6y ago
  > evidence to be prosecuted Just be sure to bribe the police, the judge etc.
- blntechie 6y ago
  Most of the time, they don’t ask for money explicitly at all but they will put procedural roadblocks so one pick up the cue and bribe them. Like Priority Shipping for a bad analogy. Pay to fasten and smoothen your experience kind of thing. Of course it’s illegal.
  - newen 6y ago
    One trick it to leave a desk drawer half empty and then they go for a tea break. If they come back and they don't see money in their desk drawer, then it's hard for you to complain when they mark something in your forms as incomplete and ask you to redo it or whatever. And the next time you come to the office, you might be accidentally left to wait for a couple of hours and how you do make a decent complaint about that?
  - aitchnyu 6y ago

acomjean 6y ago

>Small town governments in USA at least are very strict with their zoning codes Even cities in the US. I live in a "historic District" in cambridge ma in a big ugly brick building with 35 units. 3 of us wanted to change windows, as they're original 1940s and terrible. So we go to get a permit. The permit department sees "exterior change" looks at the address, and sends it to the historical commission. They won't sign off, we have to attend a hearing. They don't like replacement windows,[1] so we fill out the permit and go to the meeting. We please our case to the four commissioners and no problem. We get the permit, everything was handled professionally, but its a 2 month delay and kind of a pain. I know its encouraging people to do changes without permits. Some of my neighbors (bless their hearts) seem to love to complain about any change, to anything so they're not helping. I can't imagine trying to build something new. (Some renovations were shot down in the meeting and they're invited to work with the commissioners to come up with a compromise.) https://www.cambridgema.gov/historic/permitsApplications https://www.cambridgema.gov/historic/permitsApplications I know restaurants that have had to wait a few months for inspections which delay openings. Its a balance, but sometimes it tips too far. cambridge on windows. [1]https://www.cambridgema.gov/historic/aboutchc/~/media/FF5F4ACDDFB24C1A9A810EE179014735.ashx https://www.cambridgema.gov/historic/aboutchc/~/media/FF5F4A...

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
Cambridge is not representative of reality outside of Cambridge.
- hindsightbias 6y ago
  Double-paned windows are not allowed in several historic neighborhoods I’ve lived or worked in. Pretty sure they’re banned in much of SF.
  - tristor 6y ago
    That's a fit of irony considering that many of the places with the most stringent regulations in this aspect are also places which have taken other actions ostensibly to help the environment. Reducing the energy demands of basic living seems to be more beneficial than nearly any other action that could be taken, such as banning plastic bags and straws.

momokoko 6y ago

Exactly, this is a re-zoning process not “opening a manufacturing plant”. I can almost guarantee this land was purchased for significantly less because it is agricultural land as well. States have plenty of reasonable concerns about re-zoning agricultural land into commercial land. The most obvious being that if there are spills or other environmental issues it could destroy much of the agricultural land around it. Needing to know past owners is to make sure a previous bad actor did not create a new shell company to sell to hide the real owner. The previous owner could have already been banned from commercial development due to the above or other issues. The fact that the author is intentionally misleading this article shows that they are a dishonest actor and is part of why we ended up needing all this procedure.

manquer 6y ago
The problem is not the number of documents he had to do, he didn’t have major concerns on that . The bribery expected in many of the depts, broken website, all the delays , lack of responses, after 9 months he is not more than half way into the process is the problem . If they denied him with valid reasoning early on and communicated in reasonable time this won’t be a problem .
forgot_user1234 6y ago
If you bothered to read the blog. You would know he was okay with getting certificates from forestry department but he got stuck because of BRIBES.
renewiltord 6y ago
> States have plenty of reasonable concerns about re-zoning agricultural land into commercial land. The most obvious being that if there are spills or other environmental issues it could destroy much of the agricultural land around it. Ironically both the Forestry Dept. and the Pollution Control Board were the fastest to certify so maybe this isn't the problem, eh?
imtringued 6y ago
The author is dishonest because he refuses to pay bribes? If anything dishonest people have an easier time because they would just pay the bribe. The author doesn't complain about the necessity. He is complaining that compliance doesn't result in receiving a permit.

duxup 6y ago

I think in the US it GREATLY depends on what is going in that location. "Light industrial", at least in my area is a pretty easy thing to rezone by the local authorities. At least it is in my area in suburbia in the twin cities MN. Granted that doesn't mean a town couldn't just say 'no'. On the other hand there's plenty of land already potentially rezoned land you can buy and it's no big deal. Now bigger scale industrial is a whole other story. Nobody wants a smelting plant company to just show up at the city council meeting and announce they bought a bunch of farm land on the edge of the town...

rohan_shah 6y ago
There are hardly any lands zoned as "industrial use" in India and all land is agricultural land by default because of the high fertility of land everywhere.

padiyar83 6y ago

Thats right. Majority of the problems here are from re-zoning agricultural land into an industrial one. If you build your manufacturing unit in an existing industrial area you can skip a lot of this type of paperwork.

cryptica 6y ago

I think the problem here is the sheer amount of agencies that need to be dealt with. In other parts of the world, it's not easy but at least you typically just need approval from a single entity (the town council)... The hard part is just waiting; it can take a decade to get approval in some cases.

vikramkr 6y ago

You won't face these overt bribes - there's a difference between red tape and the requirement for bribes