5 ms·

Sure, let's have some more nuance during our education. But let's also not let the UK off the hook; off the top of my head, during the same century, the UK star

Sure, let's have some more nuance during our education. But let's also not let the UK off the hook; off the top of my head, during the same century, the UK starved their own people at home in Ireland [0], propped up the Raj while Indians starved [1], and waged a series of wars against the Dutch Boers to the detriment of native South Africans [2]. It can both be true that the British Empire was a great boon in terms of education, health, and trade; and also that the Empire was a great plague upon its subjects, bringing indoctrination, sickness, and slavery. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Raj https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Raj [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boer_War_(disambiguation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boer_War_(disambiguation)

rmrfstar 6y ago
> the UK starved their own people at home in Ireland Pretty sure the Irish see the British as foreign colonialists who exported all their food, causing the great hunger.
- Boxbot 6y ago
  pretty sure the british also saw to the irish as subhuman, which also enabled their exploitation
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    Yeah, lazy, drunken, Catholic Irish. It's worth pointing out that when my Dad went to London for work in the 50's, there were signs all over the place saying, "No dogs; No blacks; No Irish"
  - randompwd 6y ago
    Every inch of the British establishment was involved in anti-irish propaganda inlcuding multiple cartoons depicting the Irish as less evolved/symian. for just a flavour: https://ukdiss.com/examples/analysing-the-political-cartoons.php https://ukdiss.com/examples/analysing-the-political-cartoons... https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/art-and-design/apes-psychos-alcos-how-british-cartoonists-depict-the-irish-1.3149409 https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/art-and-design/apes-psych... This kept happening up to and through the 1970s. Also worth mentioning this prick https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cummings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cummings
mellosouls 6y ago
Your summaries of the wiki links include unhelpful partisan soundbite takes, and your final "great plague upon its subjects" equally so, which somewhat undermines your call for nuance.
- rat9988 6y ago
  I'm not sure why you'd call him a partisan. At worst he has an opinion, which doesn't think that the colonialism was morally neutral, and he is sharing it with us.
  - mellosouls 6y ago
    That's fine, but a misrepresentation of what I said. I didn't call them a partisan, I called the phrasing partisan and inconsistent with the call for nuance.
    - radegast 6y ago
      you are going full retard right now
tomxor 6y ago
> But let's also not let the UK off the hook I think this kind of attitude is what the author of the article is struggling with: assigning blame, tallying up the sins of each side to see who is the winner, this kind of debate is not useful - even if you don't intend it, framing things in this light will cause it. There is value for everyone in discussing the nuances of dark events in our histories. But unfortunately we have a natural tendency to over simplify things into these highly polarized dichotomies, a vs b, in an attempt to make complex events easy to understand. Nobody alive today had a hand in these events, and while it's natural to feel things for our ancestors whether it's shame, pride or anguish, we would do well to distance ourselves like an alien observer when analyzing these events... the sins of our fathers should remain that way if we are to make progress as a species - I'm not religious, that was an accident.
- rorykoehler 6y ago
  It's not history though. The same attitudes prevail today. Northern Ireland is still part of the UK. France are bombing most of N Africa and involved in all sorts of shady deals in Africa in general. The list is long and current.
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    Northern Ireland is still part of the UK because the majority of the people wish it so. The British Secretary of State is required to hold a referendum to rejoin the South if he/she believes that it will pass. Don't get me wrong, it's bad but its 1000x better in the last 20-30 years.
    - rorykoehler 6y ago
      Which people? If you want to undo colonialism you need to include all Irish people in this measure and I can tell you not many Irish nationals if even that want it to be like it is. I'm probably the most outlier opinion in that I think they should be their own country outside of both the UK and Ireland. From politico: Overall, the results showed 65 percent "yes" versus 19 percent "no." Excluding undecided voters and those who refused to answer — 15 percent — nearly four in five respondents who had made up their minds said they would vote in favor. https://www.politico.eu/article/election-two-thirds-of-irish-would-vote-for-united-ireland/ https://www.politico.eu/article/election-two-thirds-of-irish...

rmrfstar 6y ago

> the UK starved their own people at home in Ireland Pretty sure the Irish see the British as foreign colonialists who exported all their food, causing the great hunger.

Boxbot 6y ago
pretty sure the british also saw to the irish as subhuman, which also enabled their exploitation
- disgruntledphd2 6y ago
  Yeah, lazy, drunken, Catholic Irish. It's worth pointing out that when my Dad went to London for work in the 50's, there were signs all over the place saying, "No dogs; No blacks; No Irish"
- randompwd 6y ago
  Every inch of the British establishment was involved in anti-irish propaganda inlcuding multiple cartoons depicting the Irish as less evolved/symian. for just a flavour: https://ukdiss.com/examples/analysing-the-political-cartoons.php https://ukdiss.com/examples/analysing-the-political-cartoons... https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/art-and-design/apes-psychos-alcos-how-british-cartoonists-depict-the-irish-1.3149409 https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/art-and-design/apes-psych... This kept happening up to and through the 1970s. Also worth mentioning this prick https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cummings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cummings

mellosouls 6y ago

Your summaries of the wiki links include unhelpful partisan soundbite takes, and your final "great plague upon its subjects" equally so, which somewhat undermines your call for nuance.

rat9988 6y ago
I'm not sure why you'd call him a partisan. At worst he has an opinion, which doesn't think that the colonialism was morally neutral, and he is sharing it with us.
- mellosouls 6y ago
  That's fine, but a misrepresentation of what I said. I didn't call them a partisan, I called the phrasing partisan and inconsistent with the call for nuance.
  - radegast 6y ago
    you are going full retard right now

tomxor 6y ago

> But let's also not let the UK off the hook I think this kind of attitude is what the author of the article is struggling with: assigning blame, tallying up the sins of each side to see who is the winner, this kind of debate is not useful - even if you don't intend it, framing things in this light will cause it. There is value for everyone in discussing the nuances of dark events in our histories. But unfortunately we have a natural tendency to over simplify things into these highly polarized dichotomies, a vs b, in an attempt to make complex events easy to understand. Nobody alive today had a hand in these events, and while it's natural to feel things for our ancestors whether it's shame, pride or anguish, we would do well to distance ourselves like an alien observer when analyzing these events... the sins of our fathers should remain that way if we are to make progress as a species - I'm not religious, that was an accident.

rorykoehler 6y ago
It's not history though. The same attitudes prevail today. Northern Ireland is still part of the UK. France are bombing most of N Africa and involved in all sorts of shady deals in Africa in general. The list is long and current.
- disgruntledphd2 6y ago
  Northern Ireland is still part of the UK because the majority of the people wish it so. The British Secretary of State is required to hold a referendum to rejoin the South if he/she believes that it will pass. Don't get me wrong, it's bad but its 1000x better in the last 20-30 years.
  - rorykoehler 6y ago
    Which people? If you want to undo colonialism you need to include all Irish people in this measure and I can tell you not many Irish nationals if even that want it to be like it is. I'm probably the most outlier opinion in that I think they should be their own country outside of both the UK and Ireland. From politico: Overall, the results showed 65 percent "yes" versus 19 percent "no." Excluding undecided voters and those who refused to answer — 15 percent — nearly four in five respondents who had made up their minds said they would vote in favor. https://www.politico.eu/article/election-two-thirds-of-irish-would-vote-for-united-ireland/ https://www.politico.eu/article/election-two-thirds-of-irish...