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I moved to India at the start of the year and there's the Universal Payment Interface (UPI) here that essentially allows a Venmo like interface to transfer $ in

I moved to India at the start of the year and there's the Universal Payment Interface (UPI) here that essentially allows a Venmo like interface to transfer $ instantaneously from any bank account to another - by simply using the recipient's phone number or a QR code. There are multiple apps that interface with UPI, and the barrier to entry isn't high - allowing for good competition on the UX. Literally every person I've met here or wanted to transact with in some way accepts payments via UPI... heck I was forced (or rather "strongly recommended") to pay a bribe to a cop that they were able to accept via UPI. I felt like I stepped into the future. Transferring money to a friend w/ a different bank in the US is such a hassle if they don't have Venmo (and more than half in my circle don't), and I've had horrendous experiences with Zelle (terrible UX, confusing and often incorrect sending limits that I have to call my bank to resolve). In India I mostly use Google Pay as my interface to UPI and wow, it's a magical user experience. Can't wait for there to be more competition in payments UX in the US once this service is set up.

arrayjumper 6y ago
I agree wholeheartedly. In my opinion, UPI has been an unmitigated success. Nearly everyone from a roadside street-food vendor to a 5 star hotel accepts UPI and it makes the whole flow of day-to-day payments entirely contactless which is especially useful with the COVID-19 situation. Now if only they could introduce some way to enable subscription payments, it'd be the cherry on top.
- sandGorgon 6y ago
  already live. its called UPI Autopay https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/startup/exclusive-google-pay-phonepe-to-soon-offer-auto-debit-through-upi-5674061.html https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/startup/exclusive...
  - arrayjumper 6y ago
    Ohh. Thanks for linking this. I'm excited for this.
- koopuluri 6y ago
  So, subscriptions are possible - just programmatically request a payment on a recurring basis. As a consumer I actually prefer this approach because I get a payment request that I must explicitly accept for my subscription to be renewed, as opposed to forgetting about a subscription and have it show up on my bank statement. For example: Every month Netflix sends me a payment request asking me to pay for another month's service. Perhaps they could allow for auto-withdrawing to reduce friction for subscriptions you definitely know you want, but I strongly feel this request-before-withdrawing model should be the default for any subscription service and anything else should be explicit opt-in.
- ms4720 6y ago
  And completely trackable
blisseyGo 6y ago
> instantaneously from any bank account to another I am already able to do that with eTransfer. That's how I pay my rent and haven't had any problems.
- mixmastamyk 6y ago
  The rest of the developed world can do that from their bank, no financial data-selling middleman required. Oh, and for a decade or two.
throwaway9d0291 6y ago
> I felt like I stepped into the future. It's more like stepping out of the past. It's not that India is particularly ahead, it's that the US is particularly behind. The EU for example has essentially instant SEPA transfers now and has done for a while.
- perlgeek 6y ago
  > The EU for example has essentially instant SEPA transfers now and has done for a while. It seems that for me (in Germany) transfers still only arrive the next business day. Something must be going on there...
  - skrause 6y ago
    There are normal SEPA transfers (taking between a few hours and 1-2 days) and there is SEPA Instant which transfers the money within a few seconds. Those are two different systems and not all banks support SEPA Instant yet. I've done a few SEPA Instant transfers in Germany already and they really arrived within a few seconds to a few minutes.
    - pmontra 6y ago
      The instant trasfer costs money in Italy. I saw fees from 5 to 50 Euros.
      - zaarn 6y ago
        Most banks in germany do it for free, my bank does 1'000 Instant Transfers for free (incoming + outgoing) after which I have to pay a fee for every additional block of 1'000 transactions. 1'000 is plenty considering the supermarket would still be fine with a next-day standard SEPA, so 3-per-day on average seems reasonable to me.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - skeletal88 6y ago
rootkea 6y ago
Best feature of UPI for me is you can interact with UPI via USSD code (*99#) which is terrific for someone like me who don't use any proprietary apps on his Lineageos.
choicenotchance 6y ago
Tell that to Modi haters. The man is on a mission to actually lift India up from the cesspool of shit created by INC and other parties that usually tie up with them. One by one, small improvements pouring in every year. Now waiting for Uniform Civil Code, and Population Control Bill. But I'd also very much welcome a new legislation that deletes the whole fucked up caste system and caste certificates stuff that allows basically even the rich to get into places that have caste based quota. Next up, scrap the IAS thing and remove so much power from power and money hungry fellas cracking the UPSC exam just to get to that position where they can mint money with the power they get, as well as modify ground level implementation of the incumbent govt to their wishes. Which is particularly why many of Modi's schemes don't really reach the people they're supposed to benefit. The education system revamp is going to be a huge boost up for productivity of the young generation, which is a vastly welcome change. Now only if the subversive army of communists and leftists would let the nation actually progress instead of harping on and on about non existent problems and identity politics.. But then I guess that's not how a real world can ever be. Bad guys will be always be there.
raxxorrax 6y ago
They made cash almost illegal allegedly to fight corruption, but I think that has an awesome UI. Of course the poorest were strongly hit by declaring the currency illegal. Some negligible UX experience wouldn't be my first thought on the issue
vmception 6y ago
The main thing I still hate about anything that's not a wire transfer is the transfer limits, doubly true in all the fintech apps. Hey here is this arbitrary limit for "security" purposes! Not good enough? Well now listen to this low level banker and customer support person make up a fake anti-money laundering law on the fly! We are still left wondering why the compliance team interpreted actual laws so ridiculously, or maybe this institution is just insolvent. Oh great, the entire population is also brainwashed to stigmatize ever having any actual money to transfer, can't talk to them about it either.
013a 6y ago
US banks have something mostly like this: Zelle [1]; the company behind it, Early Warning Systems, is owned by JPMorgan Chase, Bank of America, Capital One, Wells Fargo, PNC, basically every bank has a stake in it, and every bank supports it. And it works better than Cash App/Venmo; enter phone number or email address, get an instant direct bank-to-bank transfer, no fees, all from the normal bank app you'd already be using. What we're really talking about with FedNow is not user-facing: Zelle runs on Mastercard Send/Visa Direct, but traditional bank transfers run on ACH, which is very antiquated. FedNow is supposed to replace all of this (though, who's to say if Zelle would actually use it; its possible Visa/Mastercard have stakes in it as well, and they'd lobby against it; but, even in those cases, Visa/Mastercard likely make heavy use of ACH somewhere, and they'd be using FedNow. Its all ACH all the way down) Zelle's issue is really that most people don't know they have it. For example, Chase has had, for a very long time, QuickPay, which could be used to instantly send money to other Chase customers. Naturally, no one relied on it very often, because if I'm out for drinks with my friends, I'm not going to lead with "Hey, do you have Chase?". QuickPay now uses Zelle, so the bank doesn't matter, but people have their apps. Its actually the exact same "problem" as WhatsApp is elsewhere in the world. Upgrades to the fundamental, platform-agnostic technologies (SMS->RCS, ACH->Zelle->FedNow) lose stickiness when people have "their app" they'd rather use. In my view, Zelle is one of the greatest tragedies in the US financial system; the banks did everything right with it, its an incredible product, but even very smart people I know refuse to use it, because its not Cash App or whatever. [1] https://www.zellepay.com/ https://www.zellepay.com/
- awad 6y ago
  Today was the day I discovered Zelle was same day deposits as I had just assumed like everything else before it, that there would be 2-3 day settlement. US Banks are comically bad at branding and user experience and the lack of cooperation between them all historically has left a pretty bad taste in the mouth, leading to my own ignorance displayed here.
- novok 6y ago
  What skeeves me out about zelle is there is no fraud protection unlike most other payment methods in the USA. So I'm going to continue to use venmo, credit cards, etc: https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/16/zelle-users-are-finding-out-the-hard-way-theres-no-fraud-protection/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/16/zelle-users-are-finding-ou...

arrayjumper 6y ago

I agree wholeheartedly. In my opinion, UPI has been an unmitigated success. Nearly everyone from a roadside street-food vendor to a 5 star hotel accepts UPI and it makes the whole flow of day-to-day payments entirely contactless which is especially useful with the COVID-19 situation. Now if only they could introduce some way to enable subscription payments, it'd be the cherry on top.

sandGorgon 6y ago
already live. its called UPI Autopay https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/startup/exclusive-google-pay-phonepe-to-soon-offer-auto-debit-through-upi-5674061.html https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/startup/exclusive...
- arrayjumper 6y ago
  Ohh. Thanks for linking this. I'm excited for this.
koopuluri 6y ago
So, subscriptions are possible - just programmatically request a payment on a recurring basis. As a consumer I actually prefer this approach because I get a payment request that I must explicitly accept for my subscription to be renewed, as opposed to forgetting about a subscription and have it show up on my bank statement. For example: Every month Netflix sends me a payment request asking me to pay for another month's service. Perhaps they could allow for auto-withdrawing to reduce friction for subscriptions you definitely know you want, but I strongly feel this request-before-withdrawing model should be the default for any subscription service and anything else should be explicit opt-in.
ms4720 6y ago
And completely trackable

blisseyGo 6y ago

> instantaneously from any bank account to another I am already able to do that with eTransfer. That's how I pay my rent and haven't had any problems.

mixmastamyk 6y ago
The rest of the developed world can do that from their bank, no financial data-selling middleman required. Oh, and for a decade or two.

throwaway9d0291 6y ago

> I felt like I stepped into the future. It's more like stepping out of the past. It's not that India is particularly ahead, it's that the US is particularly behind. The EU for example has essentially instant SEPA transfers now and has done for a while.

perlgeek 6y ago
> The EU for example has essentially instant SEPA transfers now and has done for a while. It seems that for me (in Germany) transfers still only arrive the next business day. Something must be going on there...
- skrause 6y ago
  There are normal SEPA transfers (taking between a few hours and 1-2 days) and there is SEPA Instant which transfers the money within a few seconds. Those are two different systems and not all banks support SEPA Instant yet. I've done a few SEPA Instant transfers in Germany already and they really arrived within a few seconds to a few minutes.
  - pmontra 6y ago
    The instant trasfer costs money in Italy. I saw fees from 5 to 50 Euros.
    - zaarn 6y ago
      Most banks in germany do it for free, my bank does 1'000 Instant Transfers for free (incoming + outgoing) after which I have to pay a fee for every additional block of 1'000 transactions. 1'000 is plenty considering the supermarket would still be fine with a next-day standard SEPA, so 3-per-day on average seems reasonable to me.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- skeletal88 6y ago

rootkea 6y ago

Best feature of UPI for me is you can interact with UPI via USSD code (*99#) which is terrific for someone like me who don't use any proprietary apps on his Lineageos.

choicenotchance 6y ago

Tell that to Modi haters. The man is on a mission to actually lift India up from the cesspool of shit created by INC and other parties that usually tie up with them. One by one, small improvements pouring in every year. Now waiting for Uniform Civil Code, and Population Control Bill. But I'd also very much welcome a new legislation that deletes the whole fucked up caste system and caste certificates stuff that allows basically even the rich to get into places that have caste based quota. Next up, scrap the IAS thing and remove so much power from power and money hungry fellas cracking the UPSC exam just to get to that position where they can mint money with the power they get, as well as modify ground level implementation of the incumbent govt to their wishes. Which is particularly why many of Modi's schemes don't really reach the people they're supposed to benefit. The education system revamp is going to be a huge boost up for productivity of the young generation, which is a vastly welcome change. Now only if the subversive army of communists and leftists would let the nation actually progress instead of harping on and on about non existent problems and identity politics.. But then I guess that's not how a real world can ever be. Bad guys will be always be there.

raxxorrax 6y ago

They made cash almost illegal allegedly to fight corruption, but I think that has an awesome UI. Of course the poorest were strongly hit by declaring the currency illegal. Some negligible UX experience wouldn't be my first thought on the issue

vmception 6y ago

The main thing I still hate about anything that's not a wire transfer is the transfer limits, doubly true in all the fintech apps. Hey here is this arbitrary limit for "security" purposes! Not good enough? Well now listen to this low level banker and customer support person make up a fake anti-money laundering law on the fly! We are still left wondering why the compliance team interpreted actual laws so ridiculously, or maybe this institution is just insolvent. Oh great, the entire population is also brainwashed to stigmatize ever having any actual money to transfer, can't talk to them about it either.

013a 6y ago

US banks have something mostly like this: Zelle [1]; the company behind it, Early Warning Systems, is owned by JPMorgan Chase, Bank of America, Capital One, Wells Fargo, PNC, basically every bank has a stake in it, and every bank supports it. And it works better than Cash App/Venmo; enter phone number or email address, get an instant direct bank-to-bank transfer, no fees, all from the normal bank app you'd already be using. What we're really talking about with FedNow is not user-facing: Zelle runs on Mastercard Send/Visa Direct, but traditional bank transfers run on ACH, which is very antiquated. FedNow is supposed to replace all of this (though, who's to say if Zelle would actually use it; its possible Visa/Mastercard have stakes in it as well, and they'd lobby against it; but, even in those cases, Visa/Mastercard likely make heavy use of ACH somewhere, and they'd be using FedNow. Its all ACH all the way down) Zelle's issue is really that most people don't know they have it. For example, Chase has had, for a very long time, QuickPay, which could be used to instantly send money to other Chase customers. Naturally, no one relied on it very often, because if I'm out for drinks with my friends, I'm not going to lead with "Hey, do you have Chase?". QuickPay now uses Zelle, so the bank doesn't matter, but people have their apps. Its actually the exact same "problem" as WhatsApp is elsewhere in the world. Upgrades to the fundamental, platform-agnostic technologies (SMS->RCS, ACH->Zelle->FedNow) lose stickiness when people have "their app" they'd rather use. In my view, Zelle is one of the greatest tragedies in the US financial system; the banks did everything right with it, its an incredible product, but even very smart people I know refuse to use it, because its not Cash App or whatever. [1] https://www.zellepay.com/ https://www.zellepay.com/

awad 6y ago
Today was the day I discovered Zelle was same day deposits as I had just assumed like everything else before it, that there would be 2-3 day settlement. US Banks are comically bad at branding and user experience and the lack of cooperation between them all historically has left a pretty bad taste in the mouth, leading to my own ignorance displayed here.
novok 6y ago
What skeeves me out about zelle is there is no fraud protection unlike most other payment methods in the USA. So I'm going to continue to use venmo, credit cards, etc: https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/16/zelle-users-are-finding-out-the-hard-way-theres-no-fraud-protection/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/16/zelle-users-are-finding-ou...