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As an anecdote, someone I know is an immigrant from HK and has lived in the USA for many years, and this person is afraid of saying anything publicly against Ch

• aww_dang 6y ago
  They've claimed authority to extradite anyone (including non-Chinese citizens) under this new law.
  • seibelj 6y ago
    Good thing I never leave my house anymore!
  • PakG1 6y ago
    That part is REALLY weird.
    • ivalm 6y ago
      It is not weird in that countries enforce what they see as antiterrorism laws outside their borders (US is a prime example). The problem here is that China is targeting essentially anyone with a strong critical voice.
    • throwaway77643 6y ago
      Isn’t that pretty standard? For example, Julian Assange, Kim Dotcom, and Richard O'Dwyer were all prosecuted for crimes committed outside the US.
      • KMag 6y ago
        Kim Dotcom and Richard O'Dwyer were pretty ridiculous, but Julian Assange was trafficking in what he knew were stolen U.S. government secrets. I think there's a good first amendment defence for Assange, based on the public good and his role in whistleblowing, but I can understand why the UK would extradite someone allegedly knowingly handling stolen state secrets of an ally.
  • labster 6y ago
    And invoked that authority: China has pressed charges against an American citizen who lives in America for conduct that took place in the United States. https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/01/china/hong-kong-activists-arrest-warrant-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/01/china/hong-kong-activists-arr... R.I.P Westphalian sovereignty
    • thaumasiotes 6y ago
      > China has pressed charges against an American citizen who lives in America for conduct that took place in the United States. > R.I.P Westphalian sovereignty This reminds me of our arrest (well, Canada's arrest at our demand) of Meng Wanzhou.
      • khuey 6y ago
        It really shouldn't. She's alleged to have committed bank fraud against American banks. Bank fraud is a crime everywhere.
        • aww_dang 6y ago
          https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/07/11/asia-pacific/hostage-diplomacy-china-canada/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/07/11/asia-pacific/ho... >"Trudeau also rejected the idea of a prisoner swap for Meng Wanzhou — eldest daughter of Huawei’s billionaire founder Ren Zhengfei — saying an exchange would “demonstrate to China that they can just arrest Canadians and get what they want out of Canada.” "
        • thaumasiotes 6y ago
          She's alleged to have been an officer in a company that disobeyed American prohibitions on trade with Iran. Calling it "bank fraud" is just a way of avoiding the question of what she did that was wrong. Who's arresting Anish Kapoor and his co-conspirators for committing fraud against Stuart Semple?
          • khuey 6y ago
• moreorless 6y ago
  As an anecdote, I hear people call out the CPC in public places in China.
  • gruez 6y ago
    Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf] (dash.harvard.edu) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20729614 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20729614
  • frequentnapper 6y ago
    As an anecdote, i have a Tajik friend from Xinjiang who's seen friends kidnapped by Chinese authorities and never heard from again for daring to criticise the govt.
  • iliveinchina 6y ago
    In such an environment, anecdotes may be among the most accurate information one can get. I've never really seen such personally. People occasionally petition the central government due to grievances, but those people are heavily monitored, strongly discouraged, and later suffer negative repercussions (I know one such individual personally). There are occasionally protests regarding local issues: housing demolition, environmental problems. They are not allowed to persist. I've never seen these in person. I used to very occasionally see graffiti critical of the government, but I don't think I've see such in 5+ years. I figure the omnipresence of the security cameras have discouraged this. I once received a robocall from the Falun Gong critiquing the government. I also occasionally see Falun Gong messages stamped on paper currency. That's about it. I'm curious about the specifics of the case(s) about which you've heard.
  • actuator 6y ago
    I remember during Beijing Olympics, there were these "protest zones" that were created which theoretically should have allowed dissent in these areas. A pass based system was introduced to get access to these places. I remember people who applied for passes getting rounded up by the police. https://www.hrw.org/news/2008/08/13/china-police-detain-would-be-olympic-protesters https://www.hrw.org/news/2008/08/13/china-police-detain-woul...
• baryphonic 6y ago
  I don't disagree with any of this at all; in fact I'd piggy back and go further: the Chinese Communist Party is increasingly a totalitarian regime. Whereas Vladimir Putin and the Russian oligarchs are mostly interested in preserving their power and wealth, and threatening/assaulting/murdering the people who get in the way, the Chinese Communist Party regime seems to have much broader goals. From the Falun Gong persecution to the Uighur concentration camps to the ultra-nationalist propaganda now taught in PRC schools to even the land grabs (and land "creation") the PLA Navy has engaged in, the ambitions of the Chinese Communist Party seem truly limitless in the way Nazi Germany's and the Soviet Union's did. (This reads as a criticism and almost a "well, aktshually" kind of a post, but I truly don't intend it as such. If anything, it's a stronger warning to Chinese ex-pats: be very careful what you say because the regime's tentacles are numerous and reach far. Not that Chinese citizens don't already know that, though.)
  • iabacu 6y ago
    Xi Jinping and the CCP’s official goal is for the Chinese people and everyone else to have a common destiny. Interpret these how you wish, because they are interpreting these how they wish.
    • throwaway-semi 6y ago
      There are definitely Han-supremacy fascist elements. Xi Jingpin's speeches have a clever interplay between sounding patriotic and whilst edging into aforementioned motifs.
    • dqpb 6y ago
      How does force sterilizing of Uighurs fit into a common destiny?
      • throwaway77643 6y ago
        From what I’ve read, the Han are also affected by this if they violate the new 2 child policy. Back when it was the 1 child policy, only the Han had to follow it. The Uighurs and other minorities did not. Now, everyone has to follow the 2 child policy.
• ktln2 6y ago
  The fear is real - A lot of pro-democracy Hong Kong activists in US are harassed and threatened by PRC government agents, many of them Chinese students studying in US. [1] https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2019/08/30/hong-kong-activist-receives-threats/ https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2019/08/30/hong-kong-activist... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/26/us/hong-kong-protests-colleges.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/26/us/hong-kong-protests-col...
  • actuator 6y ago
    Forget Hong Kong which actually people seem to care about. A Tibetan origin student president at University of Toronto was harassed for photos on her personal Instagram account. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/china-tibet-student-election-1.5019648 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/china-tibet-student-e...
  • mtnGoat 6y ago
    We should treat those students as agents of a foreign government in that case.
    • bzb4 6y ago
      Because there’s no chance they are just people with an opinion, right?
      • Melting_Harps 6y ago
        > Because there’s no chance they are just people with an opinion, right? Not when your Education system is literal State propaganda and they deny access to the Internet due to the specific fear of subversive acts, also known as: personal research. It's one thing to hold an opinion and argue from that POV in honest discourse, its quite another to be operating and rewarded for your loyalty to the State and be monitored and possibly dissapeared if you deviate from this path. This is the same type of Human Conditioning seen during the Soviet Union, which I think can be universally understood to be a negative thing. Many people in Hong Kong feel as though they've been forgotten by the International Community, the Umbrella Revolution/Yellow Movement was trying to oppose this since 2014, and it mainly went unnoticed other than some sound bites about violent protests, and not much else was understood beyond that. When what should have been the real focus was the ever increasing Hegemony that was being built by the CCP that could essentially become so seemingly 'indispensable' to those addicted to its cheap labour/manufacturing that it could commit literal Crimes Against Humanity out in the open, lie and cover up International Pandemics that have cost untold Lives and Suffering several times (SARS as well as COVID), and still make People question if it's 'worth' decoupling from China. That was my biggest fear all along, as I knew Hong Kong (the city) would eventually be returned to China. We stand at a critcal point as a Species on how we Live on Earth and I really want to maintain faith that Humanity can come to the most reasonable albeit difficult conclusion that this cannot continue, but its statements and sentiment like that that make me wonder just how detached people have become to this cancerous threat model. And if they can even muster the ability to be inconvenienced enough to actually see it for what it is instead of detaching into some perpetual self0induced distraction, often viewed from their Chinese made device.
• tedhuang 6y ago
  lol There lots of messages on Chinese social media criticize CPC eg. Weibo and Toutiao. Unless it is something really absurd no one will come after you
  • krtkush 6y ago
    The thing is one does not know if they'll come or not. That is not the point. There is a general fear amongst the people that they'll be targeted for speaking out. Effectively blocking freedom of speech.
    • tedhuang 6y ago
      That's a false statement. There is general understanding one will only be questioned if the misinformation has caused a significant financial or social impact.
      • Reelin 6y ago
        > will only be questioned if the misinformation has caused a significant financial or social impact Oh good, so I'm free to speak my own opinion as long as I don't actually try to accomplish anything!
        • tedhuang 6y ago
          Well, if what you wish to accomplish has to rely on misinformation then China is the wrong place for you. People will come after you, you may end up need CPC's protection
          • pirocks 6y ago
            Notice how you've changed the OPs concern about free speech to a concern about "misinformation".
            • tedhuang 6y ago
• Zafira 6y ago
  Chinese culture remains very authoritarian in a lot of ways. You can see attempts to get out of this, but it's hard. I know people who emigrated from Taiwan before marital law was finally lifted and they were also terrified, even in the US, of criticizing Chiang Kai-Shek. I was told that there were minders on the streets in Taiwan and you might just disappear if they heard you complaining.
  • khuey 6y ago
    The KMT assassinated Henry Liu in California in the 1980s so they weren't crazy to be afraid.
    • echaozh 6y ago
      You do realize that what KMT and Taiwan did doesn't speak for mainland China?
      • khuey 6y ago
        If your implication is that the KMT is more repressive than the Communist Party my only response is laughter.
• usui 6y ago
  I want to make it clear that I am not an apologist for China, but when we levy criticism and express our fears, it needs to be precise, sharp, accurate. They should not be attempts to fearmonger. This comment does NOT have the purpose to approve or disapprove of Chinese conduct on the international stage. The only thing I want to do is point out that Russia has a nearly undeniable record of assassinating dissenters such as Alexander Litvinenko and Sergei/Yulia Skripal in the United Kingdom. China does not yet share this record with Russia, so I feel that your statement coaxes people to interpret China as a murderer on the same level as Russia ("Similar to how Russia murders defectors, it's not a good idea to be an expat and criticize China"). This is an unfair equivalency and I want to point it out. Look up Anna Politkovskaya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Anna_Politkovskaya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Anna_Politkov...): She was a known critic of Putin and shot/murdered mysteriously. You can search on Google for Russian critics outside of Russia being killed, but as far as I publicly discern, this is not true for Chinese critics. I'm not saying that people haven't been killed for criticizing China overseas, but I will say that publicly you and I do not know of people who have been killed, unlike the obvious case for Russia. My strongest plausible interpretation is that you are saying that it could be the next step for China, and I would agree that it is a possibility. In fact, if we really want to be exhaustive about overseas assassination of critics, there is Henry Liu who was assassinated in California for criticizing Taiwanese leader Chiang Kai-shek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Liu#Confession_of_Chen_Chi-li https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Liu#Confession_of_Chen_C...). If I want to start being concerned about China murdering people, it's not a massive leap of the imagination to believe that they are capable of doing it, but so far, many similar nation-states have done more than China in this regard, such as Taiwan. However, obviously I understand that Taiwan is a fairly different place now compared to 1984 when Henry was assassinated. In order to be charitable to your comment, I can ask, "Can you explain more about what you mean?" We can argue that China might be murdering critics, but that would be in the case of stuff that happens within its borders, not outside of it. We can also arguably say that China is imposing measures on critics overseas such as economic punishments, but they do not appear to be murdering people. Therefore, I do not think your anecdote about Hong Kong immigrants being killed in the USA adds value to the discussion because it is unsubstantiated to believe that it will happen. I would say that it's believable that HK immigrants could feel threatened or be afraid of retaliation from China through other means, such as online harassment or attacks from the 50 Cent Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party) Having said all that, I do not want to wait until it reaches the point where China can shamelessly kill people in cities across the globe. My reply to the parent comment is more to point out that our criticisms need to be healthy and balanced, lest the discussion devolves into massive leaps of unsubstantiated thought.