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On this historic day (exactly 75 years to the day since the August 9 1945 atomic bombing of Nagasaki) we should take a moment to understand more about our share

On this historic day (exactly 75 years to the day since the August 9 1945 atomic bombing of Nagasaki) we should take a moment to understand more about our shared history. > But he was also behind the internment of more than 100,000 Japanese Americans because, as Mr Stimson put it, "their racial characteristics are such that we cannot understand or trust even the citizen Japanese". The internment of Japanese-Americans is a blight on United States history [1], as is the gold rush era Chinese Exclusion Act [2] ("the first law implemented to prevent all members of a specific ethnic or national group from immigrating" to the United States), as was the 1950s "Red Scare" [3] (where accusations of being Communist spies were made without evidence.) As the United States enters into a (likely multi-decade long) second Cold War and potential painful economic decoupling, it's worth knowing this history so that the real problems the United States has identified with the Chinese Communist Party can be addressed in accordance to the values the United States exposes. Especially with the presumption of innocence (innocent until proven guilty) when it comes to individual people's lives, and the principle that everybody is created equal. US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo's recent "Distrust and Verify" [4] reformulation (of a famous Russian proverb) should definitely be applied widely to counter the Chinese Communist Party threat, but great care must be taken to ensure America's core values are always respected. Cold Wars are very dangerous and vastly increase the risk of nuclear escalation, so it's vital we all understand what's at stake. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_America... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust,_but_verify https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust,_but_verify

googthrowaway42 6y ago
Here are some other elements of our shared history we should endeavor to understand more about during this moment you have carved out for us: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_march_through_the_institutions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_march_through_the_ins... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps
- someperson 6y ago
  I didn't mean to hijack the discussion. I agree that Imperial Japan, Maoist China and Soviet Russia killed tens of millions of people, and Europe/United States had similar number of deaths in World War 1 and 2. I know there is terrible atrocities taking place right now all over the world. From the ethno-religious concentration camps, to human trafficking and slavery, forced prison labor etc. My comment was in context of the 75th anniversary of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings and nuclear war, and how, as the United States enters into what many are calling Cold War 2, we should learn the lessons from the first Cold War and the realities of nuclear war. These major anniversaries provide a lot of news stories for all of humanity to take a moment to pause and reflect on.
  - googthrowaway42 6y ago
    Seems to me that in order to take away any truly valuable lessons from some historical event, you have to understand the context in which it occurred. Generally speaking, humans are very bad at actually understanding how they themselves would actually feel, react, or behave in a similar situation. It's kind of like people who talk all the time about entrepreneurship or starting their own company but then never actually quit their jobs because the reality of handing in your resignation and going off on your own is quite different than the intellectualization of it.
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      The general context of this particular anniversary is the "short twentieth century", from 28 July 1914 to 26 December 1991. In particular, the significance of the first date helps explain why it would be the US making a first strike, and the significance of the second date why it they held it necessary to make a countervalue strike. (Afterwards, 31 March 1991-12 November 2001 —from which we have many refugees— would start the twenty-first century of "nationalistic" fake news.)
pm90 6y ago
I am afraid that what happens in the upcoming election will be a referendum on what kind of country the US will become, and what kind of reaction it will have to the urgent existential problems the world faces today. If the current administration persists, I do not see any genuine way that the country could tackle these problems. Just look at the completely botched non-response to the current pandemic at the Federal level; not to mention the constant racism in calling the coronavirus "Kung Flu". All the political appointees lie constantly and seem to be terrible at their jobs. I do not personally believe that the country can handle the upcoming crises in a reasonable manner if that happens. On the other hand, even with a change in the Presidency, it is almost guaranteed that the GOP will do everything in its power to obstruct the new Administration, if it holds any power at all. I am not sure what will happen. I share your hope but not your optimism.
- someperson 6y ago
  It's off-topic, but (as a non-American) I personally believe Trump will win re-election. Steve Bannon (the architect of Trump's 2016 election win) has said Trump will win re-election if the Chinese Communist Party is the central issue of the election (which it increasingly is). Come November they'll likely be multiple vaccine candidates in late-stage trials, and the compelling argument can be made saying the botched crisis is almost over and Trump will soon be returning the economy to four more years of ~3% growth. After the vaccine is widely deployed, whoever is President will see a year of 6+% growth (after 2020's 10+% contraction)
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    The CCP isn't a tremendously controversial issue in the US (the consensus against it is strong and bipartisan), so it's hard to see how it could become the central issue of the election.
    - someperson 6y ago
      The issue is Biden appears much weaker than Trump on China. He has the baggage of being an Obama administration official (overseeing the South China Sea militarization and the US-China Cyber Agreement). Some core Trump advisors like Peter Navarro (author of "Death by China" and the associated documentary) believe in economic decoupling far more deeply Biden advisors. I agree some Democratic leaders like Chuck Schumer are hawks on China, but a Biden administration would be far less hawkish on the CCP issue than Trump. I can see Trump using the 'nuclear option' and cutting off Hong Kong's ability to conduct transactions in US dollars (fatally killing the Hong Kong economy and deeply damaging China's, and far less so America's). I can't see Biden doing that.
Ma8ee 6y ago
You write like there are dangers that the US might forget or lose their values, like innocent until proven guilty or that everybody is created equal. The US has never lived up to those. Guantanamo Bay Detention Camp (I hope no one forgot about that one) or all the tragic events that ignited the BLM movement are just current examples.
- someperson 6y ago
  I don't disagree that the values of the United States have always been an aspiration rather than actual reality. Thomas Jefferson wrote that "All men are created equal" in 1776 as part of the United States' founding principles, but it took until 1865 for slavery to even be abolished in the United States. He even owned slaves himself and famously bore 6 children with his slave, Sally Hemings. As recently as 155 years ago in the United States, you could own people as property, and 70 years ago black people couldn't drink out of the same drinking fountain as white people. The US has always been a work in progress, and it's better to have some kind of aspirational set of values (like presumption of innocence and equality) that we should try and make sure our societies are living up to.
  - Ma8ee 6y ago
    Of course you should have aspirations! But many people seems to think that the US is this shining light of enlightenment and democracy in the world that, just a little bit, at a few occasions, forgotten they way. But that is just not true. From slavery, Jim Crow, internment camps, McCarthy, Vietnam, killing of “enemy combatants”, etc. You have never been even close to the way.
    - someperson 6y ago
      Just to clarify, I am not American.
    - barrenko 6y ago
      Trust me, to many non-Americans US remains the sole idea of a free country, whatever happened over there so far.
oh_sigh 6y ago
Yeah, the Japanese interment sucks, but I wonder what would have happened if there was no internment. Could US wartime industry on the West coast have operated successfully under constant sabotage? Would it be better for America to lose the war to Japan (or at least reach a deal and let Japan keep all of the Pacific islands and Chinese land holdings) if it meant that the internment didn't happen? It's impossible to figure out what percentage of Japanese people in the US would have sided with Japan over America. But it might be telling that during the Niihau incident, literally every Japanese person the pilot ran across decided to help him, in contrast to helping the native Hawaiians they had been living with for decades. I wonder at what point the internment becomes acceptable. If 99% of the Japanese people in America would have supported Japan in the war, would the internment have been okay?
- crooked-v 6y ago
  > literally every Japanese person In this case, "literally every" means exactly three people, two of whom were first-generation immigrants without citizen. I do hope you understand how that's not a sufficient basis to make conclusions about 120,000 people.
  - oh_sigh 6y ago
    There isn't a shortage of bytes for storing HN comments - you can go ahead and quote the full phrase of "literally every Japanese person the pilot ran across". Would you have supported the internment if 110,000 of those 120,000 people supported Japan in their war against the USA?
    - loriverkutya 6y ago
      The more important question is, why you seems to be supporting putting 120,000 people to camps based on the fact, that 3 people helped the pilot.
      - oh_sigh 6y ago
        I clearly said 110,000 in this hypothetical, not 3.

googthrowaway42 6y ago

Here are some other elements of our shared history we should endeavor to understand more about during this moment you have carved out for us: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_march_through_the_institutions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_march_through_the_ins... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps

someperson 6y ago
I didn't mean to hijack the discussion. I agree that Imperial Japan, Maoist China and Soviet Russia killed tens of millions of people, and Europe/United States had similar number of deaths in World War 1 and 2. I know there is terrible atrocities taking place right now all over the world. From the ethno-religious concentration camps, to human trafficking and slavery, forced prison labor etc. My comment was in context of the 75th anniversary of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings and nuclear war, and how, as the United States enters into what many are calling Cold War 2, we should learn the lessons from the first Cold War and the realities of nuclear war. These major anniversaries provide a lot of news stories for all of humanity to take a moment to pause and reflect on.
- googthrowaway42 6y ago
  Seems to me that in order to take away any truly valuable lessons from some historical event, you have to understand the context in which it occurred. Generally speaking, humans are very bad at actually understanding how they themselves would actually feel, react, or behave in a similar situation. It's kind of like people who talk all the time about entrepreneurship or starting their own company but then never actually quit their jobs because the reality of handing in your resignation and going off on your own is quite different than the intellectualization of it.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    The general context of this particular anniversary is the "short twentieth century", from 28 July 1914 to 26 December 1991. In particular, the significance of the first date helps explain why it would be the US making a first strike, and the significance of the second date why it they held it necessary to make a countervalue strike. (Afterwards, 31 March 1991-12 November 2001 —from which we have many refugees— would start the twenty-first century of "nationalistic" fake news.)

pm90 6y ago

I am afraid that what happens in the upcoming election will be a referendum on what kind of country the US will become, and what kind of reaction it will have to the urgent existential problems the world faces today. If the current administration persists, I do not see any genuine way that the country could tackle these problems. Just look at the completely botched non-response to the current pandemic at the Federal level; not to mention the constant racism in calling the coronavirus "Kung Flu". All the political appointees lie constantly and seem to be terrible at their jobs. I do not personally believe that the country can handle the upcoming crises in a reasonable manner if that happens. On the other hand, even with a change in the Presidency, it is almost guaranteed that the GOP will do everything in its power to obstruct the new Administration, if it holds any power at all. I am not sure what will happen. I share your hope but not your optimism.

someperson 6y ago
It's off-topic, but (as a non-American) I personally believe Trump will win re-election. Steve Bannon (the architect of Trump's 2016 election win) has said Trump will win re-election if the Chinese Communist Party is the central issue of the election (which it increasingly is). Come November they'll likely be multiple vaccine candidates in late-stage trials, and the compelling argument can be made saying the botched crisis is almost over and Trump will soon be returning the economy to four more years of ~3% growth. After the vaccine is widely deployed, whoever is President will see a year of 6+% growth (after 2020's 10+% contraction)
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  The CCP isn't a tremendously controversial issue in the US (the consensus against it is strong and bipartisan), so it's hard to see how it could become the central issue of the election.
  - someperson 6y ago
    The issue is Biden appears much weaker than Trump on China. He has the baggage of being an Obama administration official (overseeing the South China Sea militarization and the US-China Cyber Agreement). Some core Trump advisors like Peter Navarro (author of "Death by China" and the associated documentary) believe in economic decoupling far more deeply Biden advisors. I agree some Democratic leaders like Chuck Schumer are hawks on China, but a Biden administration would be far less hawkish on the CCP issue than Trump. I can see Trump using the 'nuclear option' and cutting off Hong Kong's ability to conduct transactions in US dollars (fatally killing the Hong Kong economy and deeply damaging China's, and far less so America's). I can't see Biden doing that.

Ma8ee 6y ago

You write like there are dangers that the US might forget or lose their values, like innocent until proven guilty or that everybody is created equal. The US has never lived up to those. Guantanamo Bay Detention Camp (I hope no one forgot about that one) or all the tragic events that ignited the BLM movement are just current examples.

someperson 6y ago
I don't disagree that the values of the United States have always been an aspiration rather than actual reality. Thomas Jefferson wrote that "All men are created equal" in 1776 as part of the United States' founding principles, but it took until 1865 for slavery to even be abolished in the United States. He even owned slaves himself and famously bore 6 children with his slave, Sally Hemings. As recently as 155 years ago in the United States, you could own people as property, and 70 years ago black people couldn't drink out of the same drinking fountain as white people. The US has always been a work in progress, and it's better to have some kind of aspirational set of values (like presumption of innocence and equality) that we should try and make sure our societies are living up to.
- Ma8ee 6y ago
  Of course you should have aspirations! But many people seems to think that the US is this shining light of enlightenment and democracy in the world that, just a little bit, at a few occasions, forgotten they way. But that is just not true. From slavery, Jim Crow, internment camps, McCarthy, Vietnam, killing of “enemy combatants”, etc. You have never been even close to the way.
  - someperson 6y ago
    Just to clarify, I am not American.
  - barrenko 6y ago
    Trust me, to many non-Americans US remains the sole idea of a free country, whatever happened over there so far.

oh_sigh 6y ago

Yeah, the Japanese interment sucks, but I wonder what would have happened if there was no internment. Could US wartime industry on the West coast have operated successfully under constant sabotage? Would it be better for America to lose the war to Japan (or at least reach a deal and let Japan keep all of the Pacific islands and Chinese land holdings) if it meant that the internment didn't happen? It's impossible to figure out what percentage of Japanese people in the US would have sided with Japan over America. But it might be telling that during the Niihau incident, literally every Japanese person the pilot ran across decided to help him, in contrast to helping the native Hawaiians they had been living with for decades. I wonder at what point the internment becomes acceptable. If 99% of the Japanese people in America would have supported Japan in the war, would the internment have been okay?

crooked-v 6y ago
> literally every Japanese person In this case, "literally every" means exactly three people, two of whom were first-generation immigrants without citizen. I do hope you understand how that's not a sufficient basis to make conclusions about 120,000 people.
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  There isn't a shortage of bytes for storing HN comments - you can go ahead and quote the full phrase of "literally every Japanese person the pilot ran across". Would you have supported the internment if 110,000 of those 120,000 people supported Japan in their war against the USA?
  - loriverkutya 6y ago
    The more important question is, why you seems to be supporting putting 120,000 people to camps based on the fact, that 3 people helped the pilot.
    - oh_sigh 6y ago
      I clearly said 110,000 in this hypothetical, not 3.