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(All comments on culture US centric) - This thinking is why the men’s section is 1/4 as large as the women’s in most stores. Culturally for men clothing is supp

(All comments on culture US centric) - This thinking is why the men’s section is 1/4 as large as the women’s in most stores. Culturally for men clothing is supposed to be above all practical. There are 5 genres of men’s clothes - business (pressed shirts, suits), casual, workout, skater, and comfort (hoodie). Contrast this with the women’s section. Women have an expectation to express themselves and their personality. There are all sorts of “impractical” cuts, flairs, colors, layers to choose from. There’s a shoe for every occasion. You can get dramatically different fabrics, feels, and touches. Not even going into accessories. There is certainly a sea change happening in fashion retail, but it’s more that like everything else it’s accelerating things that are already going on. People were trending less formal almost everywhere in the workplace, except NYC, SF and LA (or in high touch industries like real estate or law). Your H&Ms are best positioned to survive, where everyone already knows that Macy’s is on its last legs.

Ancapistani 6y ago
> There are 5 genres of men’s clothes - business (pressed shirts, suits), casual, workout, skater, and comfort (hoodie). There’s quite a bit of variation within those. Where I live, “casual” these days is usually something like Columbia PFG - the epitome of “dad clothes”, as my wife tells me. I tend to wear that pretty much exclusively. I substitute jeans for the shorts in winter and buy a new leather jacket about every 3-5 years. I pass my old one on to someone else. Your point stands, though. As a man, my clothes are 100% based on practicality, and I often only discard them when they’re too worn to be presentable.
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  Here are some examples of women’s clothing where I cannot think of the equivalent thing in a men’s clothing department: https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1AawYy29TBuNjy0Fcq6zeiFXaW/Off-shoulder-sexy-blouse-shirt-ruffle-long-sleeve-crop-top-women-blouses-2018-Summer-solid-color.jpg https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1AawYy29TBuNjy0Fcq6zeiFXaW/Off... https://patternshub.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Tube-top-Dress-4.jpg https://patternshub.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Tube-top-... http://images.asos-media.com/products/asos-cut-out-sleeve-one-shoulder-asymmetric-top/1144364-1-black?$XXL$&wid=513&fit=constrain http://images.asos-media.com/products/asos-cut-out-sleeve-on... https://cdn.tobi.com/product_images/lg/1/teal-kayla-ombre-maxi-romper.jpg https://cdn.tobi.com/product_images/lg/1/teal-kayla-ombre-ma... (That last one is a bit of a cheat because manufacturers are starting to produce rompers for men).
  - jdhawk 6y ago
    sure you can. its never that hard. https://a.suitsupplycdn.com/image/upload/b_rgb:efefef,bo_100px_solid_rgb:efefef,w_1530,h_2750,c_pad,f_auto,q_auto,dpr_1,fl_progressive/products/Suits/default/P5654_1.jpg https://a.suitsupplycdn.com/image/upload/b_rgb:efefef,bo_100...
  - Aerroon 6y ago
    To me all of these are the same: clothing to show off. I think the make equivalent would be a suit. Or alternatively, an incredibly toned body, but I don't think they sell that.
  - adamjb 6y ago
    What do you mean by "equivalent"? That last sentence makes it sounds like you mean clothes in the same pattern but cut to fit male bodies.
    - freeone3000 6y ago
      Men's fashion currently has no mainstream style that shows off athleticism. Sleeveless crop-tops, with abs and shoulders on display! Shorts with flare for muscular thighs, allowing them to be shorter! Semi-sheer panels, allowing for pecs to bulge! Mesh sections in pants! What's wrong with men showing a little skin for once?
      - _delirium 6y ago
        Not exactly the same thing, but at least where I live, going shirtless is a pretty common way for athletic men to show that off. Obviously not in the office, but it's very socially acceptable to jog, play basketball, sit on a park bench, or grill shirtless. People then build the rest of an outfit/look around that as a core component. There's a certain amount of explicit catering to that in a section of men's fashion too, judging by their model shoots.
      - wasdfff 6y ago
        What men are you seeing? Buff shirtless men in 3” inseam shorts and a bulging groin are a staple of every American city in the summer. I see more and more mesh clothing in this heat, although I do live by west hollywood.
- ghaff 6y ago
  Between business and casual, there's definitely "business casual" which is pretty standard uniform for many business people these days--think khakis + button down for men and either boating shoes or loafers of some sort. Which is very closely related to a lot of "preppy" outfits going back to the 80s. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Official_Preppy_Handbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Official_Preppy_Handbook
Larrikin 6y ago
This kind of thinking is why I tend to buy as close to a full years worth of clothing whenever I make a trip out to Tokyo. Even in Chicago relatively fashionable men's clothing shops are few and far between
- wirthjason 6y ago
  What do you find so interesting and where do you shop? I like Uniqlo and Muji but now that Uniqlo is available (in-store) in Chicago theres no need to buy it in Japan. I’m not particularly into fashion but I like mainstream but trendy clothes. I think Japanese fashion is less about the clothes themselves than the acceptance to let people wear what they want and and not judging. I think it’s more acceptable to match different colors and styles. One strap shoulder Man-bags are all the rage. They are pretty practical, especially when you can’t fit your checkbook-sized wallet in tiny pockets. But in the US it looks like you’re wearing a fanny pack. If you saw someone wearing an all yellow track suit it would look OK, partly because someone wearing an all green version is 20 feet away. Or business slacks tapered and cropped above the ankle — in the US they’d ask, “is there a flood?” While the clothes themselves don’t seem much different, I prefer slimmer cuts. The US is too baggy and loose.
  - on_and_off 6y ago
    not op but brands like visvim are way more affordable if you are in Japan. Less expensive brands like OrSlow or TCB are also more affordable in Japan (there is a wealth of fashion brands in that country). >I think Japanese fashion is less about the clothes themselves than the acceptance to let people wear what they want and and not judging. In my experience this mostly applies if you are young. At a certain age you are more or less expected to start fitting in the mold.
  - Larrikin 6y ago
    I actually rarely shop at Uniqlo unless I'm getting something like underwear or socks. The style is better than Old Navy but I wouldn't say that much better. Usually I go through Harajuku (excluding Takeshita-dori), Shibuya, Omotesando, and Shinjuku and go through the various stores. Especially in Harajuku stores tend to close constantly and are replaced, but theres always something good to find.
on_and_off 6y ago
there are tons more than 5 styles for guys (workwear, techwear, superfuture, dark, etc) but strongly agree that there are enormous differences in male vs female clothing trends. Male fashion is on something like a 10 years cycle and you can find tons of brands focusing on quality or durability. Female fashion seems to obsess about the latest trend and change dramatically every 3-months to a year. Probably lots of cultural bias there, not sure how much this applies in all countries. I kinda hope that fast fashion is not what's going to survive, between ecology and employment practices, they are not really my favorite.
- bbarnett 6y ago
  I've always believed that the pants are almost meaningless, it's the shirts that need to be different daily. So I used to have 8 pairs of pants, 2 colours total. Black and beige. Then, once a year, I'd go buy 2 more pairs of each colour. On a 'bad' year, I'd buy 4 pairs. EG, I'd rotate the worn out, always only having 8 pairs. This persisted until, 20 years later, the company that sold them went bankrupt. As my gut and ass had literally grown to into the form / shape of these pants, drooping and expanding to perfectly fill these specific pants, no other pants I tried seemed even remotely comfortable. Or to even fit well! So I tried to find the company that made them... note, this was very early internet, and I had to go old-school. Finally called the trustees handling the bankruptcy, eventually found out where the pants were made, called them, and? It was in Mexico, and they made custom for a variety of retailers. And none were left, no matter how I begged. Two things: 1) Don't wear the same pants for 20-30 years, while you gain your middle-age gut and ass. Just don't. 2) Always have a pants fallback plan.
  - Google234 6y ago
    You can probably change #1 in about a year. Maybe 1 hour a day of work.
  - on_and_off 6y ago
    As one data point, I am pretty tall, relatively slim but do exercise. Good fitting shirts in casual chic styles are extremely easy to find, but pants are very hard (and it seems to be the same for most people). > As my gut and ass had literally grown to into the form / shape of these pants It sounds a lot like you are wearing clothes that are too small for you :) Regardless, I would be very surprised if there were no equivalent. There are even many brands dedicated to reproduce old garments (off the top of my head, TCB denim does that for jeans)
sukilot 6y ago
> Women have an expectation to express themselves and their personality This is not where I expected to see the "personality" euphemism today.
- amanaplanacanal 6y ago
  Now I’m feeling stupid. What is personality a euphemism for?
  - oftenwrong 6y ago
    The implication is that women are expressing their looks as much as their personality. However, the two are connected; how one's personality is perceived is dependent on one's looks. If you want people to value your personality, best to exercise regularly, dress well, and keep up with proper grooming.
coldtea 6y ago
>Women have an expectation to express themselves and their personality. Personality is expressed through choice of cut, material, and color of cloth?
- kbenson 6y ago
  People definitely attempt to do so, and sometimes do so subconsciously. Some people dress for how they want to be seen or aspire to be, others dress as a reflection of their environment, including those they associate with, and that sometimes reflects the prevailing attitude and beliefs of that group (and sometimes not). A simple example of this might be a haircut. Whether accurate or not, a mohawk often signals something to other people (and sometimes signals something the person that wears it, like "I may be ties down with more responsibilities, but I won't let that define me"). I like to think most my clothing choices are made because of practical matters such as comfort and fit, but even within my normal range of jeans to shorts and t-shirts to polo shirts (and maybe the less formal button-up shirt), there's definitely things that fit that criteria that don't feel like they fit how I think of myself. And that's as a man, where I think expectations to do with style and clothing are much simpler.
- magic_beans 6y ago
  Don't be dense. Whether you admit it or not, most people judge others based on appearance.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    Don't be denser, judging others by their appereance is shallow. The fact that people still do it doesn't mean that when you change your clothes that's any kind of expression proper. It's just a cheap way to signal something that you might or might not be, and only superficially at that.
    - triceratops 6y ago
      You use "cheap" as a pejorative, but it's actually a positive. By signaling that you are X, or believe yourself to be X, (where X can be anything - gender, hobbies, wealth, social class whatever) you gain the interest of everyone who is seeking X without needing to speak to them. And save the time of everyone who isn't interested in X. It's a cheap, efficient way to filter people. Is it perfect? Heck no. But humans are often happy to sacrifice accuracy for speed.
0xdeadb00f 6y ago
> This thinking is why the men’s section is 1/4 as large as the women’s in most stores. This is so true, and it annoys me for reasons I'll mention later. > Contrast this with the women’s section. Women have an expectation to express themselves and their personality. I'm a young man, but I also like to express myself by dressing a certain way, which is why I'm especially disappointed when literally three whole floors of a relatively mid-high-end department store are dedicated to women's fashion, while half a floor is dedicated to men's. I enjoy shopping for clothes in person - this way I can feel the clothing I'm actually going to put on, I can try different sizes on, see how it looks with my jacket, etc. So it also annoys me when a greater variety of men's fashion is found online, where I can't observe the physical quality of the clothes I'm about to buy, making it a hit-or-miss in most cases.
- whatshisface 6y ago
  As someone who doesn't want to pour resources into a fruitless arms race, I'm glad that a supergovernmental system has unilaterally enacted arms control. ;)
  - taurath 6y ago
    There is serious value to being perceived as you want to be though! It’s not really fruitless, nor an arms race.
    - whatshisface 6y ago
      The problem is that the perception is relative, not absolute. As soon as more than a few people on the fringe start chasing it, the average will move up, causing a Red Queen scenario. Victorian court dress is a ready example of what happens when economics and social norms fail to restrain appearance arms races.
- dade_ 6y ago
  Yes, but men’s fashion cycles run far longer than women, so we can buy higher quality clothing that lasts much longer. This also means custom clothing is very practical. I deal with a guy, his family has a factory in India. All the grades of fabric, styles, etc, all made custom based on my measurements. A few weeks later, it arrives. Most comfortable clothing available, and looks killer. He travels to me, or I go to his shop. Far better experience than retail and prices are less than off the rack and better quality. Women’s fashions are much shorter cycle, so they are often made with terrible quality fabrics that are quite uncomfortable. Worse, custom clothing is very expensive and by time it arrives, the season is changing.
opan 6y ago
What about Men's work clothes? Heavy-duty stuff. Like a lot of Duluth Trading Co. clothing. I'm not sure these fit into your categories. I also feel your skater/comfort don't seem different enough. At least, I can imagine skaters wearing hoodies commonly.
- taurath 6y ago
  To me those fall more into a "uniform". I admit I didn't really think of that in terms of "fashion", but its true that many wear a ton of carhardt and not much else. But it does tend to be hoodies and the like.
watwut 6y ago
Then again, what woman section misses is the comfortable practical stuff.
- Broken_Hippo 6y ago
  You are mostly correct. I'm female, and want to wear simple clothing. Black pants, black shirt. Short sleeve in summer, long sleeve in winter plus or minus a basic sweater or two. Sometimes, these aren't available or aren't available in black, so I often wind up wearing simply jeans and a t-shirt. I'd rather not have frills, though I can occasionally tolerate zippers. I'd really like pockets that have space for things: I used to wear men's pants when I was younger and I gotta say, I've considered switching back. I wish they fit better because the pockets are glorious. (Men's shirts don't fit well at all since they aren't made for breasts). I can usually find non-athletic shoes in black, but it gets much more difficult to find black or mostly black athletic-style shoes.
raxxorrax 6y ago
I think there will always be a discrepancy. Same with the beauty industry that failed to attract men proportionally. It grows for men, but not to a degree some articles would suggest year after year. Doesn't work anyway, look at people above 60 and the men don't look worse than women. Nobody wants to look bad, but there are different degrees of effort people put into it. That aside, I think retail will still suffer greatly compared to online sales since most have a service to send back clothing for free.
throwaway287391 6y ago
> People were trending less formal almost everywhere in the workplace, except NYC, SF and LA (or in high touch industries like real estate or law). Sorry if this comes across as nitpicking but I'm curious what makes you think SF remains formal outside of high touch industries? AFAIK tech is the biggest industry in SF and formal clothes are far from expected there, you would not look out of place in a hoodie and shorts in an SF tech office (or even in some reasonably nice restaurants). In most tech offices you'd look like a bit of a weirdo dressed any more formal than business casual.
ctvo 6y ago
You're so confident about this. > There are 5 genres of men’s clothes - business (pressed shirts, suits), casual, workout, skater, and comfort (hoodie). Only 5 of them and one of them includes "skater"? I mention confidence because you name them off with some authority when it looks like it should be "There are 5 categories of men's clothing for me". You leave off streetwear [1] which is a gigantic category in men's clothing and reinforces the personal / arbitrary nature of the list. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetwear https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetwear
- viridian 6y ago
  Not only is streetwear missing, but so are preppy styles. I really can't think of many women's "genres" which lack a male counterpart.
  - soylentcola 6y ago
    Not speaking for the parent commenter, but I imagine "casual" as roughly the same range as "preppy" - not formal, but not sweats or tshirts. Also, while they used the term "skater" (which I also find oddly specific) I think "streetwear" would be a better label. This would cover more specific styles like "skater" as well as other types of streetwear. As a disclaimer, I know next to nothing about fashion and am just going on my own limited perception of broad categories.
    - taurath 6y ago
      Agree, streetwear would be a better term. Its more of my upbringing where kids who didn't dress in one of the other ways tended to go to stores like pacsun, zumiez, vans etc which prominently featured skating as a lifestyle.
  - Smoosh 6y ago
    The list also missed formalware which, I assume, is still a thing.
    - 6y ago
mumblemumble 6y ago
> Women have an expectation to express themselves and their personality. I think that men have the same expectation. What's different is: Men are working with a relatively stable means of expression. They're working with clothes that are naturally more multi-season (both in terms of utility and in terms of aesthetic norms.) And it's more socially acceptable - even required in some contexts - for them to wear basically the same thing every day. Whereas women are expected to take part in a sartorial red queen's race where everything is changing so rapidly that the statement you make by wearing a particular piece of clothing in summer 2018 might be markedly different from the statement you make by wearing it in winter 2019 or summer 2020, so it only serves to express your personality in the way you intend for a desperately short span of time. Worse, even within summer 2018 it might make one statement on June 18, and a completely different statement if you dare to wear it on June 25, because, even if nobody at your office actually will notice and judge you for wearing the same outfit on two consecutive Mondays, you've likely been conditioned to expect it to happen.
- shoes_for_thee 6y ago
  Also: Men have a narrower range of acceptable expressions
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    So very true. My only excuse for failing to even think of that point is that I'm so accustomed - inured, really - to men having a narrower range of acceptable personalities.
- Shorel 6y ago
  Just wear a hat in 2020. The amount of online discussions I have seen for a single item in male fashion makes me think nothing is ever simple.
lsiebert 6y ago
I mean I'm not disagreeing with your overall premise but I think you are ignoring other categories: street wear, club wear, and just plain uniforms for service workers.

Ancapistani 6y ago

> There are 5 genres of men’s clothes - business (pressed shirts, suits), casual, workout, skater, and comfort (hoodie). There’s quite a bit of variation within those. Where I live, “casual” these days is usually something like Columbia PFG - the epitome of “dad clothes”, as my wife tells me. I tend to wear that pretty much exclusively. I substitute jeans for the shorts in winter and buy a new leather jacket about every 3-5 years. I pass my old one on to someone else. Your point stands, though. As a man, my clothes are 100% based on practicality, and I often only discard them when they’re too worn to be presentable.

IgorPartola 6y ago
Here are some examples of women’s clothing where I cannot think of the equivalent thing in a men’s clothing department: https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1AawYy29TBuNjy0Fcq6zeiFXaW/Off-shoulder-sexy-blouse-shirt-ruffle-long-sleeve-crop-top-women-blouses-2018-Summer-solid-color.jpg https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1AawYy29TBuNjy0Fcq6zeiFXaW/Off... https://patternshub.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Tube-top-Dress-4.jpg https://patternshub.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Tube-top-... http://images.asos-media.com/products/asos-cut-out-sleeve-one-shoulder-asymmetric-top/1144364-1-black?$XXL$&wid=513&fit=constrain http://images.asos-media.com/products/asos-cut-out-sleeve-on... https://cdn.tobi.com/product_images/lg/1/teal-kayla-ombre-maxi-romper.jpg https://cdn.tobi.com/product_images/lg/1/teal-kayla-ombre-ma... (That last one is a bit of a cheat because manufacturers are starting to produce rompers for men).
- jdhawk 6y ago
  sure you can. its never that hard. https://a.suitsupplycdn.com/image/upload/b_rgb:efefef,bo_100px_solid_rgb:efefef,w_1530,h_2750,c_pad,f_auto,q_auto,dpr_1,fl_progressive/products/Suits/default/P5654_1.jpg https://a.suitsupplycdn.com/image/upload/b_rgb:efefef,bo_100...
- Aerroon 6y ago
  To me all of these are the same: clothing to show off. I think the make equivalent would be a suit. Or alternatively, an incredibly toned body, but I don't think they sell that.
- adamjb 6y ago
  What do you mean by "equivalent"? That last sentence makes it sounds like you mean clothes in the same pattern but cut to fit male bodies.
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    Men's fashion currently has no mainstream style that shows off athleticism. Sleeveless crop-tops, with abs and shoulders on display! Shorts with flare for muscular thighs, allowing them to be shorter! Semi-sheer panels, allowing for pecs to bulge! Mesh sections in pants! What's wrong with men showing a little skin for once?
    - _delirium 6y ago
      Not exactly the same thing, but at least where I live, going shirtless is a pretty common way for athletic men to show that off. Obviously not in the office, but it's very socially acceptable to jog, play basketball, sit on a park bench, or grill shirtless. People then build the rest of an outfit/look around that as a core component. There's a certain amount of explicit catering to that in a section of men's fashion too, judging by their model shoots.
    - wasdfff 6y ago
      What men are you seeing? Buff shirtless men in 3” inseam shorts and a bulging groin are a staple of every American city in the summer. I see more and more mesh clothing in this heat, although I do live by west hollywood.
ghaff 6y ago
Between business and casual, there's definitely "business casual" which is pretty standard uniform for many business people these days--think khakis + button down for men and either boating shoes or loafers of some sort. Which is very closely related to a lot of "preppy" outfits going back to the 80s. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Official_Preppy_Handbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Official_Preppy_Handbook

Larrikin 6y ago

This kind of thinking is why I tend to buy as close to a full years worth of clothing whenever I make a trip out to Tokyo. Even in Chicago relatively fashionable men's clothing shops are few and far between

wirthjason 6y ago
What do you find so interesting and where do you shop? I like Uniqlo and Muji but now that Uniqlo is available (in-store) in Chicago theres no need to buy it in Japan. I’m not particularly into fashion but I like mainstream but trendy clothes. I think Japanese fashion is less about the clothes themselves than the acceptance to let people wear what they want and and not judging. I think it’s more acceptable to match different colors and styles. One strap shoulder Man-bags are all the rage. They are pretty practical, especially when you can’t fit your checkbook-sized wallet in tiny pockets. But in the US it looks like you’re wearing a fanny pack. If you saw someone wearing an all yellow track suit it would look OK, partly because someone wearing an all green version is 20 feet away. Or business slacks tapered and cropped above the ankle — in the US they’d ask, “is there a flood?” While the clothes themselves don’t seem much different, I prefer slimmer cuts. The US is too baggy and loose.
- on_and_off 6y ago
  not op but brands like visvim are way more affordable if you are in Japan. Less expensive brands like OrSlow or TCB are also more affordable in Japan (there is a wealth of fashion brands in that country). >I think Japanese fashion is less about the clothes themselves than the acceptance to let people wear what they want and and not judging. In my experience this mostly applies if you are young. At a certain age you are more or less expected to start fitting in the mold.
- Larrikin 6y ago
  I actually rarely shop at Uniqlo unless I'm getting something like underwear or socks. The style is better than Old Navy but I wouldn't say that much better. Usually I go through Harajuku (excluding Takeshita-dori), Shibuya, Omotesando, and Shinjuku and go through the various stores. Especially in Harajuku stores tend to close constantly and are replaced, but theres always something good to find.

on_and_off 6y ago

there are tons more than 5 styles for guys (workwear, techwear, superfuture, dark, etc) but strongly agree that there are enormous differences in male vs female clothing trends. Male fashion is on something like a 10 years cycle and you can find tons of brands focusing on quality or durability. Female fashion seems to obsess about the latest trend and change dramatically every 3-months to a year. Probably lots of cultural bias there, not sure how much this applies in all countries. I kinda hope that fast fashion is not what's going to survive, between ecology and employment practices, they are not really my favorite.

bbarnett 6y ago
I've always believed that the pants are almost meaningless, it's the shirts that need to be different daily. So I used to have 8 pairs of pants, 2 colours total. Black and beige. Then, once a year, I'd go buy 2 more pairs of each colour. On a 'bad' year, I'd buy 4 pairs. EG, I'd rotate the worn out, always only having 8 pairs. This persisted until, 20 years later, the company that sold them went bankrupt. As my gut and ass had literally grown to into the form / shape of these pants, drooping and expanding to perfectly fill these specific pants, no other pants I tried seemed even remotely comfortable. Or to even fit well! So I tried to find the company that made them... note, this was very early internet, and I had to go old-school. Finally called the trustees handling the bankruptcy, eventually found out where the pants were made, called them, and? It was in Mexico, and they made custom for a variety of retailers. And none were left, no matter how I begged. Two things: 1) Don't wear the same pants for 20-30 years, while you gain your middle-age gut and ass. Just don't. 2) Always have a pants fallback plan.
- Google234 6y ago
  You can probably change #1 in about a year. Maybe 1 hour a day of work.
- on_and_off 6y ago
  As one data point, I am pretty tall, relatively slim but do exercise. Good fitting shirts in casual chic styles are extremely easy to find, but pants are very hard (and it seems to be the same for most people). > As my gut and ass had literally grown to into the form / shape of these pants It sounds a lot like you are wearing clothes that are too small for you :) Regardless, I would be very surprised if there were no equivalent. There are even many brands dedicated to reproduce old garments (off the top of my head, TCB denim does that for jeans)

sukilot 6y ago

> Women have an expectation to express themselves and their personality This is not where I expected to see the "personality" euphemism today.

amanaplanacanal 6y ago
Now I’m feeling stupid. What is personality a euphemism for?
- oftenwrong 6y ago
  The implication is that women are expressing their looks as much as their personality. However, the two are connected; how one's personality is perceived is dependent on one's looks. If you want people to value your personality, best to exercise regularly, dress well, and keep up with proper grooming.

coldtea 6y ago

>Women have an expectation to express themselves and their personality. Personality is expressed through choice of cut, material, and color of cloth?

kbenson 6y ago
People definitely attempt to do so, and sometimes do so subconsciously. Some people dress for how they want to be seen or aspire to be, others dress as a reflection of their environment, including those they associate with, and that sometimes reflects the prevailing attitude and beliefs of that group (and sometimes not). A simple example of this might be a haircut. Whether accurate or not, a mohawk often signals something to other people (and sometimes signals something the person that wears it, like "I may be ties down with more responsibilities, but I won't let that define me"). I like to think most my clothing choices are made because of practical matters such as comfort and fit, but even within my normal range of jeans to shorts and t-shirts to polo shirts (and maybe the less formal button-up shirt), there's definitely things that fit that criteria that don't feel like they fit how I think of myself. And that's as a man, where I think expectations to do with style and clothing are much simpler.
magic_beans 6y ago
Don't be dense. Whether you admit it or not, most people judge others based on appearance.
- coldtea 6y ago
  Don't be denser, judging others by their appereance is shallow. The fact that people still do it doesn't mean that when you change your clothes that's any kind of expression proper. It's just a cheap way to signal something that you might or might not be, and only superficially at that.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    You use "cheap" as a pejorative, but it's actually a positive. By signaling that you are X, or believe yourself to be X, (where X can be anything - gender, hobbies, wealth, social class whatever) you gain the interest of everyone who is seeking X without needing to speak to them. And save the time of everyone who isn't interested in X. It's a cheap, efficient way to filter people. Is it perfect? Heck no. But humans are often happy to sacrifice accuracy for speed.

0xdeadb00f 6y ago

> This thinking is why the men’s section is 1/4 as large as the women’s in most stores. This is so true, and it annoys me for reasons I'll mention later. > Contrast this with the women’s section. Women have an expectation to express themselves and their personality. I'm a young man, but I also like to express myself by dressing a certain way, which is why I'm especially disappointed when literally three whole floors of a relatively mid-high-end department store are dedicated to women's fashion, while half a floor is dedicated to men's. I enjoy shopping for clothes in person - this way I can feel the clothing I'm actually going to put on, I can try different sizes on, see how it looks with my jacket, etc. So it also annoys me when a greater variety of men's fashion is found online, where I can't observe the physical quality of the clothes I'm about to buy, making it a hit-or-miss in most cases.

whatshisface 6y ago
As someone who doesn't want to pour resources into a fruitless arms race, I'm glad that a supergovernmental system has unilaterally enacted arms control. ;)
- taurath 6y ago
  There is serious value to being perceived as you want to be though! It’s not really fruitless, nor an arms race.
  - whatshisface 6y ago
    The problem is that the perception is relative, not absolute. As soon as more than a few people on the fringe start chasing it, the average will move up, causing a Red Queen scenario. Victorian court dress is a ready example of what happens when economics and social norms fail to restrain appearance arms races.
dade_ 6y ago
Yes, but men’s fashion cycles run far longer than women, so we can buy higher quality clothing that lasts much longer. This also means custom clothing is very practical. I deal with a guy, his family has a factory in India. All the grades of fabric, styles, etc, all made custom based on my measurements. A few weeks later, it arrives. Most comfortable clothing available, and looks killer. He travels to me, or I go to his shop. Far better experience than retail and prices are less than off the rack and better quality. Women’s fashions are much shorter cycle, so they are often made with terrible quality fabrics that are quite uncomfortable. Worse, custom clothing is very expensive and by time it arrives, the season is changing.

opan 6y ago

What about Men's work clothes? Heavy-duty stuff. Like a lot of Duluth Trading Co. clothing. I'm not sure these fit into your categories. I also feel your skater/comfort don't seem different enough. At least, I can imagine skaters wearing hoodies commonly.

taurath 6y ago
To me those fall more into a "uniform". I admit I didn't really think of that in terms of "fashion", but its true that many wear a ton of carhardt and not much else. But it does tend to be hoodies and the like.

watwut 6y ago

Then again, what woman section misses is the comfortable practical stuff.

Broken_Hippo 6y ago
You are mostly correct. I'm female, and want to wear simple clothing. Black pants, black shirt. Short sleeve in summer, long sleeve in winter plus or minus a basic sweater or two. Sometimes, these aren't available or aren't available in black, so I often wind up wearing simply jeans and a t-shirt. I'd rather not have frills, though I can occasionally tolerate zippers. I'd really like pockets that have space for things: I used to wear men's pants when I was younger and I gotta say, I've considered switching back. I wish they fit better because the pockets are glorious. (Men's shirts don't fit well at all since they aren't made for breasts). I can usually find non-athletic shoes in black, but it gets much more difficult to find black or mostly black athletic-style shoes.

raxxorrax 6y ago

I think there will always be a discrepancy. Same with the beauty industry that failed to attract men proportionally. It grows for men, but not to a degree some articles would suggest year after year. Doesn't work anyway, look at people above 60 and the men don't look worse than women. Nobody wants to look bad, but there are different degrees of effort people put into it. That aside, I think retail will still suffer greatly compared to online sales since most have a service to send back clothing for free.

throwaway287391 6y ago

> People were trending less formal almost everywhere in the workplace, except NYC, SF and LA (or in high touch industries like real estate or law). Sorry if this comes across as nitpicking but I'm curious what makes you think SF remains formal outside of high touch industries? AFAIK tech is the biggest industry in SF and formal clothes are far from expected there, you would not look out of place in a hoodie and shorts in an SF tech office (or even in some reasonably nice restaurants). In most tech offices you'd look like a bit of a weirdo dressed any more formal than business casual.

ctvo 6y ago

You're so confident about this. > There are 5 genres of men’s clothes - business (pressed shirts, suits), casual, workout, skater, and comfort (hoodie). Only 5 of them and one of them includes "skater"? I mention confidence because you name them off with some authority when it looks like it should be "There are 5 categories of men's clothing for me". You leave off streetwear [1] which is a gigantic category in men's clothing and reinforces the personal / arbitrary nature of the list. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetwear https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetwear

viridian 6y ago
Not only is streetwear missing, but so are preppy styles. I really can't think of many women's "genres" which lack a male counterpart.
- soylentcola 6y ago
  Not speaking for the parent commenter, but I imagine "casual" as roughly the same range as "preppy" - not formal, but not sweats or tshirts. Also, while they used the term "skater" (which I also find oddly specific) I think "streetwear" would be a better label. This would cover more specific styles like "skater" as well as other types of streetwear. As a disclaimer, I know next to nothing about fashion and am just going on my own limited perception of broad categories.
  - taurath 6y ago
    Agree, streetwear would be a better term. Its more of my upbringing where kids who didn't dress in one of the other ways tended to go to stores like pacsun, zumiez, vans etc which prominently featured skating as a lifestyle.
- Smoosh 6y ago
  The list also missed formalware which, I assume, is still a thing.
  - 6y ago

mumblemumble 6y ago

> Women have an expectation to express themselves and their personality. I think that men have the same expectation. What's different is: Men are working with a relatively stable means of expression. They're working with clothes that are naturally more multi-season (both in terms of utility and in terms of aesthetic norms.) And it's more socially acceptable - even required in some contexts - for them to wear basically the same thing every day. Whereas women are expected to take part in a sartorial red queen's race where everything is changing so rapidly that the statement you make by wearing a particular piece of clothing in summer 2018 might be markedly different from the statement you make by wearing it in winter 2019 or summer 2020, so it only serves to express your personality in the way you intend for a desperately short span of time. Worse, even within summer 2018 it might make one statement on June 18, and a completely different statement if you dare to wear it on June 25, because, even if nobody at your office actually will notice and judge you for wearing the same outfit on two consecutive Mondays, you've likely been conditioned to expect it to happen.

shoes_for_thee 6y ago
Also: Men have a narrower range of acceptable expressions
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  So very true. My only excuse for failing to even think of that point is that I'm so accustomed - inured, really - to men having a narrower range of acceptable personalities.
Shorel 6y ago
Just wear a hat in 2020. The amount of online discussions I have seen for a single item in male fashion makes me think nothing is ever simple.

lsiebert 6y ago

I mean I'm not disagreeing with your overall premise but I think you are ignoring other categories: street wear, club wear, and just plain uniforms for service workers.