9 ms·

This was an interesting read. The equivalent story for Switzerland would not be so rosy, unfortunately. I wish we had a points based system here, they seem like

This was an interesting read. The equivalent story for Switzerland would not be so rosy, unfortunately. I wish we had a points based system here, they seem like a useful addition of fairness to the fundamentally unfair global migration situation.

namdnay 6y ago
How do points make it “fair”? I’d say points favour those who already have the privilege of an education.
- AuryGlenz 6y ago
  Countries exist to benefit their citizens. There’s nothing wrong with only letting the educated.
  - namdnay 6y ago
    I didn’t say there was. But how is it “fair”?
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      Fair to whom? It’s fair to the country as the country is able to make informed admission decisions weighted by the needs of the country, rather than a take-all-comers model. It’s fair to the applicants as they have a clear set of guidelines as to what they need to do to become eligible for admission. Need to learn English to boost your score (As in Canada)? Cool. That’s tangible and clear. On the other hand America’s system of, roughly speaking, “Indians need not apply” isn’t exactly fair to the applicants. Note: a points based migration scheme doesn’t preclude for instance refugee admissions, and Canada’s system has a points escape hatch if a province nominates you based on their specific needs too.
      - throw0101a 6y ago
        > and Canada’s system has a points escape hatch if a province nominates you based on their specific needs too. Further, private groups can sponsor refugees as well (pledging to support them): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Sponsorship_of_Refugees_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Sponsorship_of_Refugee... * https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/refugees/help-outside-canada/private-sponsorship-program.html https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...
    - fossuser 6y ago
      More fair than an arbitrary non-points based system Switzerland presumably has? At least you have some agency in qualifying if there is a clear points based merit system around education. Less so if it’s things you can’t control (country of origin, ethnicity, etc.)
  - noetokyo 6y ago
    Is it really fair? There are several countries with degree mills for things such as masters even when they do not show the competencies required for such degrees.
  - microtherion 6y ago
    It's not clear that points systems like this really select for optimal benefit, though. They tend to be biased toward the qualifications that are already well represented in the country. Looking at immigrants I've met, yes, qualifications count for something, but sheer hustle and ambition can play a role as well, and often those propagate into the next generation too. In hiring decisions, I was told to try to select for potential, not qualifications. Points systems are the classical "select for qualifications" move.
    - rowanG077 6y ago
      Potential can be a part of the point system. You yourself made some sort of crude scale of potential when you were interviewing people. Nothing wrong with formalizing that.
      - microtherion 6y ago
        I'm not sure how one would formalize it, even less so for the children of immigrants.
        rowanG077 6y ago
        If you can't be formalize it is is unfair.
        microtherion 6y ago
        Yes, it's considerably harder to administrate such a system in an objective manner. A points system has the advantage of being objective. But that doesn't necessarily make it fair or a well chosen policy.
        rowanG077 6y ago
        I'd say it's impossible to administrate such a system in an objective manner. If you could administer it in an objective manner then you can quantify and formalize it. A point system doesn't mean the parameters are well chosen but by it's very definition it's more fair then an interview without any formal requirements.
- praveen9920 6y ago
  Points remove the subjective nature of acceptance process which makes it more fair. It is much fair than a old lady sitting behind a desk and judging you based on 10min of interview. Yes. It favours the privileged but countries tunes the thresholds for points based on kind of people they want in their country. In the example you mentioned, more educated.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Ar-Curunir 6y ago
    Countries regularly abuse and malware their own regulations for their own purposes. For example, Japan imports cheap labour from Nepal and Southeast Asia, and treats said labour very poorly. There is no avenue for “fair” treatment for the affected parties https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/01/02/national/abuses-still-abound-labor-strapped-japans-foreign-trainee-worker-system/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/01/02/national/abuses...
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > How do points make it “fair”? Everyone knows the rules coming in: > 1a: marked by impartiality and honesty : free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism > b(1): conforming with the established rules : ALLOWED * https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fair https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fair
- sanitycheck 6y ago
  You're being downvoted unfairly, I think. The "fairest" approach is a lottery. Fair is not one of the goals here though.
- biophysboy 6y ago
  Subjective tests are also gameable by privileged educated people.
microtherion 6y ago
One problem with Swiss immigration is that due to our treaties with the EU, we basically have to let in every Eurozone immigrant, which limits our leeway in immigration with the rest of the world. Overall, I argue that those treaties are worth the price, and they are entirely fair considering what we want from the EU, but they are unfair in their treatment of Euro vs non-Euro immigrants.
- Nitrolo 6y ago
  Why does letting EU-Immigrants in limit immigration from the rest of the world?
  - refurb 6y ago
    Total immigrants = EU immigrants + rest-of-word immigrants If you have a cap to total immigrants and can’t limit EU immigrants, the open spots have to come from ROW
    - microtherion 6y ago
      Right. And while there is no legal cap to immigration, de facto there are limits to how much immigration is feasible in a given period.
      - kyawzazaw 6y ago
        Switzerland also makes it more difficult because immigration is done at a very local level of cantons
        microtherion 6y ago
        Traditionally, it was more local than that: It was done on a community level. But it is becoming increasingly an administrative process because the previous system was too obviously arbitrary.
- birdyrooster 6y ago
abc03 6y ago
Permanent residency (C permit) is only possible after 5 and 10 years of residency in Switzerland, so not comparable with Japan's fast track system for highly skilled professionals. Only option 1 is possible. Visas for non-EU countries are restricted. This favors highly educated people anyway which is the same as in a point-based system. For example, if your salary is low, it's basically impossible to get a visa.
hh3k0 6y ago
> I wish we had a points based system here, they seem like a useful addition of fairness to the fundamentally unfair global migration situation. Let's not kid ourselves: fairness* would be if migration would _not_ be restricted. A point-based system is a good way to further grant privileges to the already privileged, though. * As in: no additional layer of unfairness created by the State.
- zxcmx 6y ago
  What about fairness to existing residents.
  - hh3k0 6y ago
    Please elaborate, as I fail to see how freedom of movement and residence would be unfair to them?
    - zxcmx 6y ago
      I live in a country with nationalised healthcare and a strong welfare system. About 75% of gov expenditure is pensions and welfare. If the borders were completely open then it is likely this system would collapse or perhaps be forced to introduce the idea of "second class" citizens with tiered benefits. It's possible this might not happen but as far as I know the experiment has never really been tried. There's a lot more to nations than just "land and freedom of movement". There's a regulatory climate, political system, local culture(s), defence, social contracts. It feels to me a bit like you are handwaving away all the "hard" parts of being a nation. The half-way solution is to restrict immigration those who can demonstrate they'll contribute and not be a drain on locals (i.e, not divert too much resource away from existing citizens who currently benefit from and support the system). It's very divisive and a compromise that leaves many unhappy. Interested in your thoughts on balancing universal benefits with open borders.
    - Tade0 6y ago
      Competition for real estate comes to mind. Housing prices in e.g. Zürich and the surrounding area are already insane. There's something fundamentally sad about being priced out of the place you grew up in, let alone the country.
smnrchrds 6y ago
Is there any country in EU/EEA with point-based immigration system?
- theredlion 6y ago
  No because it's racist if white people do it
  - smnrchrds 6y ago
    Australia, New Zealand, and Canada have point-based systems and have received nothing but praise for it.
    - theredlion 6y ago
      Well they better make sure to give more points to non whites or they run the risk of being racist
adamcik 6y ago
Having gotten a Swiss C-permit (permanent residency) myself on the five year fast track it was rather easy. But looking at previous interactions it all feels very dependent on what privilege you have in the form of your nationality. If you are from a "good" country things are a lot easier. E.g. I didn't have the TELC B1 test done when I sent in all the papers. So I had a co-worker help write a formal letter explaining I would forward the test results when ready and got the permit before the results. There is even a set of countries that are exempt from the language requirement (Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Greece, and Liechtenstein). Some of which make sense as they share a language with Switzerland while others I wonder what the story really is... In contrast, friends from a "bad" country would be stringed along on 6 month L-permits, also for the spouse (who didn't get the right to work) while I brought my partner (we still aren't married) and got her a B-permit that could easily be upgraded to a working visa from the get go. I wish the system wasn't so discriminatory :(
- me_me_me 6y ago
  > I wish the system wasn't so discriminatory :( There are very few people from 'good' country list that want to go to Switzerland (or any rich country) for nefarious reasons. Be it running from law or wanting to live off benefits. So there is less hoops to check those people. There are far more incentives to try to get to rich country from a poorer country, if you make the process too easy you will get an increase of people wanting to come in. And those are hardly going to be only doctors and engineers. It will be poor and low income in general, willing to bet all. This isn't fair, its discriminatory and racist approach. But it is also reality of this planet. Life is unfair.
throwaway9d0291 6y ago
I don't see how the point-based system would be an improvement, the system is already based on fairly unambiguous rules. You meet the requirements, you get the visa/permit. You don't meet the requirements, you don't get the visa/permit. For example: - You'd like to get a work visa as a third-country national? Meet the requirements in FNA, Chapter 5, section 1 [0]. - You'd like a C-permit (permanent residence permit) in Kanton Zürich? The requirements, in as much detail as I could ever ask for, are here [1]. Switzerland has to be the most rule-based society I've ever lived in. This is baked into the very constitution itself as Art. 9 [2]: "Every person has the right to be treated by state authorities in good faith and in a non-arbitrary manner." [0]: https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/20020232/index.html#id-ni5-1 https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/20020232/... [1]: https://www.zh.ch/content/dam/zhweb/bilder-dokumente/themen/migration-integration/einreise-aufenthalt/weisungen/Niederlassungsbewilligung%20IW.pdf https://www.zh.ch/content/dam/zhweb/bilder-dokumente/themen/... [2]: https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19995395/index.html#a9 https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19995395/...

namdnay 6y ago

How do points make it “fair”? I’d say points favour those who already have the privilege of an education.

AuryGlenz 6y ago
Countries exist to benefit their citizens. There’s nothing wrong with only letting the educated.
- namdnay 6y ago
  I didn’t say there was. But how is it “fair”?
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    Fair to whom? It’s fair to the country as the country is able to make informed admission decisions weighted by the needs of the country, rather than a take-all-comers model. It’s fair to the applicants as they have a clear set of guidelines as to what they need to do to become eligible for admission. Need to learn English to boost your score (As in Canada)? Cool. That’s tangible and clear. On the other hand America’s system of, roughly speaking, “Indians need not apply” isn’t exactly fair to the applicants. Note: a points based migration scheme doesn’t preclude for instance refugee admissions, and Canada’s system has a points escape hatch if a province nominates you based on their specific needs too.
    - throw0101a 6y ago
      > and Canada’s system has a points escape hatch if a province nominates you based on their specific needs too. Further, private groups can sponsor refugees as well (pledging to support them): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Sponsorship_of_Refugees_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Sponsorship_of_Refugee... * https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/refugees/help-outside-canada/private-sponsorship-program.html https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...
  - fossuser 6y ago
    More fair than an arbitrary non-points based system Switzerland presumably has? At least you have some agency in qualifying if there is a clear points based merit system around education. Less so if it’s things you can’t control (country of origin, ethnicity, etc.)
- noetokyo 6y ago
  Is it really fair? There are several countries with degree mills for things such as masters even when they do not show the competencies required for such degrees.
- microtherion 6y ago
  It's not clear that points systems like this really select for optimal benefit, though. They tend to be biased toward the qualifications that are already well represented in the country. Looking at immigrants I've met, yes, qualifications count for something, but sheer hustle and ambition can play a role as well, and often those propagate into the next generation too. In hiring decisions, I was told to try to select for potential, not qualifications. Points systems are the classical "select for qualifications" move.
  - rowanG077 6y ago
    Potential can be a part of the point system. You yourself made some sort of crude scale of potential when you were interviewing people. Nothing wrong with formalizing that.
    - microtherion 6y ago
      I'm not sure how one would formalize it, even less so for the children of immigrants.
      - rowanG077 6y ago
        If you can't be formalize it is is unfair.
        microtherion 6y ago
        Yes, it's considerably harder to administrate such a system in an objective manner. A points system has the advantage of being objective. But that doesn't necessarily make it fair or a well chosen policy.
        rowanG077 6y ago
        I'd say it's impossible to administrate such a system in an objective manner. If you could administer it in an objective manner then you can quantify and formalize it. A point system doesn't mean the parameters are well chosen but by it's very definition it's more fair then an interview without any formal requirements.
praveen9920 6y ago
Points remove the subjective nature of acceptance process which makes it more fair. It is much fair than a old lady sitting behind a desk and judging you based on 10min of interview. Yes. It favours the privileged but countries tunes the thresholds for points based on kind of people they want in their country. In the example you mentioned, more educated.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Ar-Curunir 6y ago
  Countries regularly abuse and malware their own regulations for their own purposes. For example, Japan imports cheap labour from Nepal and Southeast Asia, and treats said labour very poorly. There is no avenue for “fair” treatment for the affected parties https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/01/02/national/abuses-still-abound-labor-strapped-japans-foreign-trainee-worker-system/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/01/02/national/abuses...
throw0101a 6y ago
> How do points make it “fair”? Everyone knows the rules coming in: > 1a: marked by impartiality and honesty : free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism > b(1): conforming with the established rules : ALLOWED * https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fair https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fair
sanitycheck 6y ago
You're being downvoted unfairly, I think. The "fairest" approach is a lottery. Fair is not one of the goals here though.
biophysboy 6y ago
Subjective tests are also gameable by privileged educated people.

microtherion 6y ago

One problem with Swiss immigration is that due to our treaties with the EU, we basically have to let in every Eurozone immigrant, which limits our leeway in immigration with the rest of the world. Overall, I argue that those treaties are worth the price, and they are entirely fair considering what we want from the EU, but they are unfair in their treatment of Euro vs non-Euro immigrants.

Nitrolo 6y ago
Why does letting EU-Immigrants in limit immigration from the rest of the world?
- refurb 6y ago
  Total immigrants = EU immigrants + rest-of-word immigrants If you have a cap to total immigrants and can’t limit EU immigrants, the open spots have to come from ROW
  - microtherion 6y ago
    Right. And while there is no legal cap to immigration, de facto there are limits to how much immigration is feasible in a given period.
    - kyawzazaw 6y ago
      Switzerland also makes it more difficult because immigration is done at a very local level of cantons
      - microtherion 6y ago
        Traditionally, it was more local than that: It was done on a community level. But it is becoming increasingly an administrative process because the previous system was too obviously arbitrary.
birdyrooster 6y ago

abc03 6y ago

Permanent residency (C permit) is only possible after 5 and 10 years of residency in Switzerland, so not comparable with Japan's fast track system for highly skilled professionals. Only option 1 is possible. Visas for non-EU countries are restricted. This favors highly educated people anyway which is the same as in a point-based system. For example, if your salary is low, it's basically impossible to get a visa.

hh3k0 6y ago

> I wish we had a points based system here, they seem like a useful addition of fairness to the fundamentally unfair global migration situation. Let's not kid ourselves: fairness* would be if migration would _not_ be restricted. A point-based system is a good way to further grant privileges to the already privileged, though. * As in: no additional layer of unfairness created by the State.

zxcmx 6y ago
What about fairness to existing residents.
- hh3k0 6y ago
  Please elaborate, as I fail to see how freedom of movement and residence would be unfair to them?
  - zxcmx 6y ago
    I live in a country with nationalised healthcare and a strong welfare system. About 75% of gov expenditure is pensions and welfare. If the borders were completely open then it is likely this system would collapse or perhaps be forced to introduce the idea of "second class" citizens with tiered benefits. It's possible this might not happen but as far as I know the experiment has never really been tried. There's a lot more to nations than just "land and freedom of movement". There's a regulatory climate, political system, local culture(s), defence, social contracts. It feels to me a bit like you are handwaving away all the "hard" parts of being a nation. The half-way solution is to restrict immigration those who can demonstrate they'll contribute and not be a drain on locals (i.e, not divert too much resource away from existing citizens who currently benefit from and support the system). It's very divisive and a compromise that leaves many unhappy. Interested in your thoughts on balancing universal benefits with open borders.
  - Tade0 6y ago
    Competition for real estate comes to mind. Housing prices in e.g. Zürich and the surrounding area are already insane. There's something fundamentally sad about being priced out of the place you grew up in, let alone the country.

smnrchrds 6y ago

Is there any country in EU/EEA with point-based immigration system?

theredlion 6y ago
No because it's racist if white people do it
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  Australia, New Zealand, and Canada have point-based systems and have received nothing but praise for it.
  - theredlion 6y ago
    Well they better make sure to give more points to non whites or they run the risk of being racist

adamcik 6y ago

Having gotten a Swiss C-permit (permanent residency) myself on the five year fast track it was rather easy. But looking at previous interactions it all feels very dependent on what privilege you have in the form of your nationality. If you are from a "good" country things are a lot easier. E.g. I didn't have the TELC B1 test done when I sent in all the papers. So I had a co-worker help write a formal letter explaining I would forward the test results when ready and got the permit before the results. There is even a set of countries that are exempt from the language requirement (Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Greece, and Liechtenstein). Some of which make sense as they share a language with Switzerland while others I wonder what the story really is... In contrast, friends from a "bad" country would be stringed along on 6 month L-permits, also for the spouse (who didn't get the right to work) while I brought my partner (we still aren't married) and got her a B-permit that could easily be upgraded to a working visa from the get go. I wish the system wasn't so discriminatory :(

me_me_me 6y ago
> I wish the system wasn't so discriminatory :( There are very few people from 'good' country list that want to go to Switzerland (or any rich country) for nefarious reasons. Be it running from law or wanting to live off benefits. So there is less hoops to check those people. There are far more incentives to try to get to rich country from a poorer country, if you make the process too easy you will get an increase of people wanting to come in. And those are hardly going to be only doctors and engineers. It will be poor and low income in general, willing to bet all. This isn't fair, its discriminatory and racist approach. But it is also reality of this planet. Life is unfair.

throwaway9d0291 6y ago

I don't see how the point-based system would be an improvement, the system is already based on fairly unambiguous rules. You meet the requirements, you get the visa/permit. You don't meet the requirements, you don't get the visa/permit. For example: - You'd like to get a work visa as a third-country national? Meet the requirements in FNA, Chapter 5, section 1 [0]. - You'd like a C-permit (permanent residence permit) in Kanton Zürich? The requirements, in as much detail as I could ever ask for, are here [1]. Switzerland has to be the most rule-based society I've ever lived in. This is baked into the very constitution itself as Art. 9 [2]: "Every person has the right to be treated by state authorities in good faith and in a non-arbitrary manner." [0]: https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/20020232/index.html#id-ni5-1 https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/20020232/... [1]: https://www.zh.ch/content/dam/zhweb/bilder-dokumente/themen/migration-integration/einreise-aufenthalt/weisungen/Niederlassungsbewilligung%20IW.pdf https://www.zh.ch/content/dam/zhweb/bilder-dokumente/themen/... [2]: https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19995395/index.html#a9 https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19995395/...