4 ms·

So here is couple of things, not a complete list, I would expect working for an US company: - 5 weeks paid vacation per year(6-7 if we skip regional holidays)

by smoe 6y ago

So here is couple of things, not a complete list, I would expect working for an US company: - 5 weeks paid vacation per year(6-7 if we skip regional holidays) - 13th month salary (that is independent from other bonuses) - Paid overtime the minute it goes above the agreed upon working hours. 1.5x pay for night or weekend work. - Maximum hours per week the must not be exceeded. - Protection from the employer wanting to constantly monitor me, do drug, medical, lie detector test and such nonsense. - Co-Paid pension, health. disability, unemployment etc. insurances - Minimum contract termination notice periods and unjust termination protection - Paid sick and paternal leave - That other employees, who might not happen to have a as sought after job and thus negotiation power as me get largely the same basic benefits as me nonetheless. I'd never work for an US company for a 100k given all the stuff I'd have to compensate.

war1025 6y ago
Are you saying these are standard benefits in Europe? You didn't make it clear in your post, though I think that must be the angle you're coming from.
- smoe 6y ago
  Benefits and regulations vary from country to country. I don't know details about eastern Europe, but all those are fairly common to different degrees in large parts of the continent.
  - tsimionescu 6y ago
    It's mostly the same in Eastern Europe (Romania at least), with the exception of paid overtime (though technically legally required, it is often not enforced), and the 13th monthly salary only being common in some industries.
- wahern 6y ago
  I'm not European, but to a degree it seems so, yes. For example, minimum paid vacation by law is 21 days in almost all of Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b... And judging by common statements and anecdotes here on HN, I think the number of paid vacation days tend to exceed the legal minimum, especially in Western Europe, just as they do in the U.S.--typically 2 weeks for salaried employees even though Federal law mandates 0. Likewise, mandatory pension contributions (employee and employer) in most of Western Europe exceed 20% of income (upwards of 30% in some cases), as contrasted to 12% in the U.S.: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/pension_glance-2017-29-en.pdf?expires=1596863374&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=6EFC31DA797D371E6AC13ED6577E4231 https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/pension_glance-2017-... Who in the U.S. contributes 10-20% to their IRA or 401(k) on top of FICA payments? It's not even legal to make such large contributions pre-tax. (Some of us are privileged enough to make up the difference with higher salaries; a smaller fraction of a higher salary let's us contribute more to retirement.) Note that employer contributions aren't generally reflected in salary figures, and in some European countries employer contributions exceed 20%.
- rapnie 6y ago
  Not everything standard, but quite common. Varies per country I guess. I'm thinking Netherlands.
- mrweasel 6y ago
  Except for the 13th month bonus, I’d say it’s pretty basic. You’d get those benefits working at a supermarket. Five weeks vacation is a legal minimum. Most companies I worked for here in Denmark will give you six. It’s technically not five weeks, but 25 days.
  - rubzah 6y ago
    Even the '13th month' is standard, too, in Denmark, it is called 'vacation pay' and is accrued as a 12% added pay on top of your salary, but paid into a separate account, to be paid out when you go on vacation.
  - TheReveller 6y ago
    I worked in Switzerland, the 13th month wasn't a bonus, they simply took your salary, divided that by 13, that was your monthly payment and you got 2 of them in December. Also many bills are due on the first of January for the whole next year e.g. insurance. So it was kinda like a holiday and large bill windfall, but it wasn't additional to salary. That was just one company, maybe other countries or employers are different.
    - freetanga 6y ago
      This. You know your yearly salary (gross and net). Then you get it in different schemes depending on country and company. Some I now are: - 14 payments (extras in June and December) - 12+1 in December - 12 + 2 x 0.5 (one extra in June and the other In December) I believe dates were pick to match Xmas and Summer Holidays, two big spending anomalies Anyhow you always negotiate yearly gross.
      - Aeolun 6y ago
        Not in the Netherlands. I always negotiated monthly gross. Then your 13th month and summer bonus suddenly actually feel like bonuses, even if the company includes it in the full yearly amount.
  - balfirevic 6y ago
kmonsen 6y ago
Sure, but what about 300k, or 500k? Also, not all of those apply to Norway at least and some are provided by the government.
- smoe 6y ago
  Sure, maybe. My point is that US companies have to pay more because more things need to be taken care of by the individual instead of it being socialized to different degrees. Also there is very little in terms or labor rights in the US. So it is a bit more complicated, than just taking some amount you think any European would just line up for work, without considering the conditions they are used to. It is not like the possibility to work remotely for US companies that in absolute numbers pay more than the local ones is completely novel. But at least in my circles pretty much no one is interested in doing so.
  - karakot 6y ago
    You have to update your knowledge about working for the software companies in US. You get $150-$300K plus almost all the benefits you mentioned on top of that.
    - smoe 6y ago
      You might have missed my point in the original post, that I care about everyone getting these or similar benefits, not just me in a higher salaried positions or after years of staying in a company. It indirectly improves my own quality of life and affects cost of things. Me making 150, 200 or 300k actually has fairly limited impact on my life. Everyone else getting the same benefits or not has, in a way not easily compensated by salary.
      - karakot 6y ago
        I answered this line: >>> My point is that US companies have to pay more because more things need to be taken care of by the individual instead of it being socialized to different degrees. the point is you get all these benefits and on top of this you get several times higher salary (I'm from Europe myself originally for what it worth).
mhdhn 6y ago
Contract? What contract?
mnm1 6y ago
Wouldn't any company hiring workers in Europe need to provide the same benefits as any European company, roughly the ones listed above? Or can an American company just hire remotely and offer American benefits directly to employees (not talking about independent contractors of course)? It would seem like the former no? Or is there a possibility of the latter? Say I'm remote and would like to work in Europe. I think this is the big problem with trying to keep a remote American job there without becoming a consultant and getting paid Corp to Corp. Is remote work for an American company even possible if that company doesn't have a European presence in the country the work would be conducted in or would they need to get such presence first before it was legal? If it's the latter (seems like it would be) it could really limit the companies willing to hire in Europe.
- kubanczyk 6y ago
  I suspect that since the act of working happens physically in an European country, both the employee and the employer need to obey the labor law of that country. Practically, the American companies usually employ Europeans through their European subsidiaries/branches (which to local government look exactly like local companies).
  - popotamonga 6y ago
    Or they ask you to setup a single person company
- ghaff 6y ago
  At a minimum a company hiring in Europe (or anywhere else) needs to offer at least the legal minimum of benefits. And they may offer additional benefits to be locally competitive. Of course, salaries may be lower than in many US locations as well. And, yes, companies usually have to establish some sort of legal presence in a country. This is an obstacle for smaller firms, less so for larger ones.

by smoe 6y ago

war1025 6y ago

Are you saying these are standard benefits in Europe? You didn't make it clear in your post, though I think that must be the angle you're coming from.

smoe 6y ago
Benefits and regulations vary from country to country. I don't know details about eastern Europe, but all those are fairly common to different degrees in large parts of the continent.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  It's mostly the same in Eastern Europe (Romania at least), with the exception of paid overtime (though technically legally required, it is often not enforced), and the 13th monthly salary only being common in some industries.
wahern 6y ago
I'm not European, but to a degree it seems so, yes. For example, minimum paid vacation by law is 21 days in almost all of Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b... And judging by common statements and anecdotes here on HN, I think the number of paid vacation days tend to exceed the legal minimum, especially in Western Europe, just as they do in the U.S.--typically 2 weeks for salaried employees even though Federal law mandates 0. Likewise, mandatory pension contributions (employee and employer) in most of Western Europe exceed 20% of income (upwards of 30% in some cases), as contrasted to 12% in the U.S.: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/pension_glance-2017-29-en.pdf?expires=1596863374&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=6EFC31DA797D371E6AC13ED6577E4231 https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/pension_glance-2017-... Who in the U.S. contributes 10-20% to their IRA or 401(k) on top of FICA payments? It's not even legal to make such large contributions pre-tax. (Some of us are privileged enough to make up the difference with higher salaries; a smaller fraction of a higher salary let's us contribute more to retirement.) Note that employer contributions aren't generally reflected in salary figures, and in some European countries employer contributions exceed 20%.
rapnie 6y ago
Not everything standard, but quite common. Varies per country I guess. I'm thinking Netherlands.
mrweasel 6y ago
Except for the 13th month bonus, I’d say it’s pretty basic. You’d get those benefits working at a supermarket. Five weeks vacation is a legal minimum. Most companies I worked for here in Denmark will give you six. It’s technically not five weeks, but 25 days.
- rubzah 6y ago
  Even the '13th month' is standard, too, in Denmark, it is called 'vacation pay' and is accrued as a 12% added pay on top of your salary, but paid into a separate account, to be paid out when you go on vacation.
- TheReveller 6y ago
  I worked in Switzerland, the 13th month wasn't a bonus, they simply took your salary, divided that by 13, that was your monthly payment and you got 2 of them in December. Also many bills are due on the first of January for the whole next year e.g. insurance. So it was kinda like a holiday and large bill windfall, but it wasn't additional to salary. That was just one company, maybe other countries or employers are different.
  - freetanga 6y ago
    This. You know your yearly salary (gross and net). Then you get it in different schemes depending on country and company. Some I now are: - 14 payments (extras in June and December) - 12+1 in December - 12 + 2 x 0.5 (one extra in June and the other In December) I believe dates were pick to match Xmas and Summer Holidays, two big spending anomalies Anyhow you always negotiate yearly gross.
    - Aeolun 6y ago
      Not in the Netherlands. I always negotiated monthly gross. Then your 13th month and summer bonus suddenly actually feel like bonuses, even if the company includes it in the full yearly amount.
- balfirevic 6y ago

kmonsen 6y ago

Sure, but what about 300k, or 500k? Also, not all of those apply to Norway at least and some are provided by the government.

smoe 6y ago
Sure, maybe. My point is that US companies have to pay more because more things need to be taken care of by the individual instead of it being socialized to different degrees. Also there is very little in terms or labor rights in the US. So it is a bit more complicated, than just taking some amount you think any European would just line up for work, without considering the conditions they are used to. It is not like the possibility to work remotely for US companies that in absolute numbers pay more than the local ones is completely novel. But at least in my circles pretty much no one is interested in doing so.
- karakot 6y ago
  You have to update your knowledge about working for the software companies in US. You get $150-$300K plus almost all the benefits you mentioned on top of that.
  - smoe 6y ago
    You might have missed my point in the original post, that I care about everyone getting these or similar benefits, not just me in a higher salaried positions or after years of staying in a company. It indirectly improves my own quality of life and affects cost of things. Me making 150, 200 or 300k actually has fairly limited impact on my life. Everyone else getting the same benefits or not has, in a way not easily compensated by salary.
    - karakot 6y ago
      I answered this line: >>> My point is that US companies have to pay more because more things need to be taken care of by the individual instead of it being socialized to different degrees. the point is you get all these benefits and on top of this you get several times higher salary (I'm from Europe myself originally for what it worth).

mhdhn 6y ago

Contract? What contract?

mnm1 6y ago

Wouldn't any company hiring workers in Europe need to provide the same benefits as any European company, roughly the ones listed above? Or can an American company just hire remotely and offer American benefits directly to employees (not talking about independent contractors of course)? It would seem like the former no? Or is there a possibility of the latter? Say I'm remote and would like to work in Europe. I think this is the big problem with trying to keep a remote American job there without becoming a consultant and getting paid Corp to Corp. Is remote work for an American company even possible if that company doesn't have a European presence in the country the work would be conducted in or would they need to get such presence first before it was legal? If it's the latter (seems like it would be) it could really limit the companies willing to hire in Europe.

kubanczyk 6y ago
I suspect that since the act of working happens physically in an European country, both the employee and the employer need to obey the labor law of that country. Practically, the American companies usually employ Europeans through their European subsidiaries/branches (which to local government look exactly like local companies).
- popotamonga 6y ago
  Or they ask you to setup a single person company
ghaff 6y ago
At a minimum a company hiring in Europe (or anywhere else) needs to offer at least the legal minimum of benefits. And they may offer additional benefits to be locally competitive. Of course, salaries may be lower than in many US locations as well. And, yes, companies usually have to establish some sort of legal presence in a country. This is an obstacle for smaller firms, less so for larger ones.