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The same argument is made by the Swedish ER doctor in the linked article: “Considering that 70% of those who have died of covid are over 80 years old, quite a

The same argument is made by the Swedish ER doctor in the linked article: “Considering that 70% of those who have died of covid are over 80 years old, quite a few of those 6,000 would have died this year anyway. That makes covid a mere blip in terms of its effect on mortality.” It’s just empirically true that dying at 80 is different from dying at 20 if you’re assessing the impact of a pandemic. I guess it needs to be pointed out that “different” has a distinct meaning from “way less tragic.”

YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
The Swedish doctor also has a remarkably cavalier attitude about mortality and I'm willing to bet quite a large sum that he wouldn't be so gung-ho about it if he were 80 years old himself. It is surprising to hear someone who is supposed to care about the bodies and minds of people be such a cowboy when it comes to their lives. If it's not a big deal for people over 80 to die because "quite a few [of them] would have died this year anyway", maybe we should stop admitting people over 80 to hospitals and save the costs of their care? Does that really sound like a sensible proposition? I am reminded of the Italian scientist, Rita Levi-Montalcini who receivead a Nobel prize in physiology of medicine at 77 and continued to work and make contributions well into her last years of life until she died at 103 [1]. Of course there are exceedingly few such exceptional people, but my point is that it is perfectly possible for someone to enjoy many years of a productive life after their 80'th birthday and perhaps we should be doing more to ensure that this is not such a rare occurrence, rather than assuming that all those old fossils are dying anyway and leave them to it because them young 'uns wants to go out dancin' and drinkin'. After all, most people plan to grow old anyway. How many of us are comfortable with the idea that, in our old age, priority will be given to "the economy", not to mention the very economy we worked our arse off to keep going while we were young? What is this economy anyway, Moloch? ________ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Levi-Montalcini https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Levi-Montalcini
- mapgrep 6y ago
  > If it's not a big deal for people over 80 to die because "quite a few [of them] would have died this year anyway" This is miles from what he says. He is arguing for the adjustment of a statistic. He is arguing that Covid has had a minimal affect on the death rate and even smaller when you adjust for how many of the dead would already have been included in the much larger baseline number of expected annual deaths because they are over 80 and X% of those over 80 die each year even with no Covid. I’m not even sure I agree with him on this or other arguments but it’s clear he values the life of the elderly. As an ER doctor he probably treats many (and many with Covid) each day. I think he’s earned the benefit of the doubt on valuing life, more than most of us here who treat and save no one.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
    His statement: >> “Considering that 70% of those who have died of covid are over 80 years old, quite a few of those 6,000 would have died this year anyway. That makes covid a mere blip in terms of its effect on mortality My comment: >> If it's not a big deal for people over 80 to die because "quite a few [of them] would have died this year anyway". Though I should perhaps not have paraphrased, I believe my comment captures the feeling of the doctor's statement well. Yes, he is making a point about mortality rates. Also, he's making the point that 6,000 people dead is a mere blip on mortality because most of them would be dying anyway. His entire post is a declaration that Covid-19 and the deaths from it are not a big deal because most were very old and on their way out anyway.
- nradov 6y ago
  The economy is not some abstract separate thing. It is all of us producing the goods and services which make life possible, or at least worth living. We do not have infinite resources. In my old age I hope those resource allocation decisions will focus on giving my children and grandchildren a decent life rather than keeping me alive for a few more months.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
    Not everyone has children and grandchildren. How does the dreadful arithmetic change for those people? Do they want to be kept alive for a few more months and if so, should they? And who gets to decide?

YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago

The Swedish doctor also has a remarkably cavalier attitude about mortality and I'm willing to bet quite a large sum that he wouldn't be so gung-ho about it if he were 80 years old himself. It is surprising to hear someone who is supposed to care about the bodies and minds of people be such a cowboy when it comes to their lives. If it's not a big deal for people over 80 to die because "quite a few [of them] would have died this year anyway", maybe we should stop admitting people over 80 to hospitals and save the costs of their care? Does that really sound like a sensible proposition? I am reminded of the Italian scientist, Rita Levi-Montalcini who receivead a Nobel prize in physiology of medicine at 77 and continued to work and make contributions well into her last years of life until she died at 103 [1]. Of course there are exceedingly few such exceptional people, but my point is that it is perfectly possible for someone to enjoy many years of a productive life after their 80'th birthday and perhaps we should be doing more to ensure that this is not such a rare occurrence, rather than assuming that all those old fossils are dying anyway and leave them to it because them young 'uns wants to go out dancin' and drinkin'. After all, most people plan to grow old anyway. How many of us are comfortable with the idea that, in our old age, priority will be given to "the economy", not to mention the very economy we worked our arse off to keep going while we were young? What is this economy anyway, Moloch? ________ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Levi-Montalcini https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Levi-Montalcini

mapgrep 6y ago
> If it's not a big deal for people over 80 to die because "quite a few [of them] would have died this year anyway" This is miles from what he says. He is arguing for the adjustment of a statistic. He is arguing that Covid has had a minimal affect on the death rate and even smaller when you adjust for how many of the dead would already have been included in the much larger baseline number of expected annual deaths because they are over 80 and X% of those over 80 die each year even with no Covid. I’m not even sure I agree with him on this or other arguments but it’s clear he values the life of the elderly. As an ER doctor he probably treats many (and many with Covid) each day. I think he’s earned the benefit of the doubt on valuing life, more than most of us here who treat and save no one.
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
  His statement: >> “Considering that 70% of those who have died of covid are over 80 years old, quite a few of those 6,000 would have died this year anyway. That makes covid a mere blip in terms of its effect on mortality My comment: >> If it's not a big deal for people over 80 to die because "quite a few [of them] would have died this year anyway". Though I should perhaps not have paraphrased, I believe my comment captures the feeling of the doctor's statement well. Yes, he is making a point about mortality rates. Also, he's making the point that 6,000 people dead is a mere blip on mortality because most of them would be dying anyway. His entire post is a declaration that Covid-19 and the deaths from it are not a big deal because most were very old and on their way out anyway.
nradov 6y ago
The economy is not some abstract separate thing. It is all of us producing the goods and services which make life possible, or at least worth living. We do not have infinite resources. In my old age I hope those resource allocation decisions will focus on giving my children and grandchildren a decent life rather than keeping me alive for a few more months.
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
  Not everyone has children and grandchildren. How does the dreadful arithmetic change for those people? Do they want to be kept alive for a few more months and if so, should they? And who gets to decide?