7 ms·

Just two thoughts. We do not know if the MacOS store will undergo a similar transformation if not outright rebranding so that it follows the same rules. It is

Just two thoughts. We do not know if the MacOS store will undergo a similar transformation if not outright rebranding so that it follows the same rules. It is possible if they continue down this path they will be the only members of their walled garden and this segment of the industry will pass them by; streaming of games and shows and possibly just hosting apps remotely. addendum, there are times where I think they are asking to be regulated, perhaps just to see how far they can go or to get regulation which prevents or limits future competition

tornato7 6y ago
I really appreciate having the MacOS app store as a sort of "trusted" alternative to downloading off the web. That said I can't ever see Apple removing the ability to download applications from untrusted sources, like they did with iPhone.
- encom 6y ago
  Really? I can absolutely see that. It seems OSX has been creeping towards that for some time, and now they're moving to ARM and stuffing their machines with "security" chips, it's getting more and more locked down. Macintosh computers are steadily becoming iPads with hardware keyboards.
  - madeofpalk 6y ago
    That is just not backed up in the actual events of what they are doing. If there was ever a time to do this it would be right now as they undergo changing Mac to ARM, but they're not.
    - olyjohn 6y ago
      I don't think the right time to make that transition is while they're trying to switch to ARM. Right now, they're probably trying to get things switched by making as few changes as possible. That eases the transition for everybody. I'm not sure why they would want to deal with both things at the same time. They are both huge undertakings. Not to mention, the two things are really unrelated. Besides, how does CPU architecture affect the ability to lock the OS into only running App Store apps?
  - pier25 6y ago
    You think Apple could make Adobe, Autodesk, and countless others go through the Mac App Store?
    - bsaul 6y ago
      They've been already doing that for all the iOS version of their apps (which are now way past a simple player or viewer). Why not ? It's probably only a matter of time.
      - pier25 6y ago
        A couple of points: 1) Apple has much more leverage on iOS because it has a bigger market share and many more iOS users than macOS. 2) macOS has traditionally been an open platform 3) Many desktop app developers wouldn't be able to keep installing and running the products the way their do it now. For example, Adobe has an app called Creative Cloud that manages installs, licenses, active computers, and other things. It's practically malware at this point, but if you want to use Adobe apps there is no other way.
    - addicted 6y ago
      Yes, yes they can. The real question is if they can convince all the professionals those companies cater to to adopt an ecosystem where software providers have to go through an arbitrarily and closely controlled App Store. If their hardware and base OS is too attractive to those professionals relative to the loss of freedom Adobe, etc. will follow. Thankfully, though, I don’t think Mac users will actually be ok with that. There’s been quite an exodus of professionals from Mac to windows based on much smaller things so far.
  - kace91 6y ago
    you can't really stop a desktop computer from running arbitrary software. If users can install compilers (which you pretty much have to allow), then all you can do is make them go through extra steps.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  > I really appreciate having the MacOS app store as a sort of "trusted" alternative to downloading off the web. But it's not, the Mac App Store is a dumpster fire.
  - pier25 6y ago
    How come?
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      Because there's a vibrant marketplace outside the store and Apple provides little benefit but takes 30%.
      - valuearb 6y ago
        It’s still far more trusted than buying on the web. That’s a significant benefit for developers.
        raydev 6y ago
        It's only a benefit for Adobe and Microsoft and Slack who can call someone up at Apple and ask them to hand over the appropriate entitlements so their apps will function.
      - pier25 6y ago
        > provides little benefit but takes 30% I understand the MAS is not a great fit for all use cases, but IMO this statement is wrong for the use cases where the MAS is a good fit. I used the MAS as a dev, and it adds other benefits such as updates, cloud storage, etc. I used it specifically for an education app and it was just great to tell macOS users to simply download it from the MAS and let it handle the updates from there. Implementing updates on your own is not trivial in a desktop app. Before using the MAS we used Electron with Squirrel. We had to manage a server exclusively for the updates. Squirrel worked great in macOS but in Windows it was a nightmare. Also the Electron apps were huge, as you probably know. For the MAS app, we kept the web UI but moved to Swift + WKWebView. The app went from a 50MB download to about 4MB. Memory consumption also decreased dramatically, I think the Swift version used something like 10-15MB of RAM.
bsaul 6y ago
It's really ironic how having suffered from microsoft monopolistic abuses in the past, they now do the EXACT same thing. And the worst is that higher management probably convinced themselves they're not. Yeah, i believe only a trial will make them realize what they've become. PS: planning on buying a non-google non-apple phone in the future, after having had to buy a new iphone just so that i could install ios 13 and keep working (the old one being perfectly fine btw). Any advice ?
- toohotatopic 6y ago
  Apple has always been like that: https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Diagnostic_Port.txt https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&stor... Of course they will relive their desktop experience because some other environment will at some point be better due to fierce competition. It's kind of their omen that the company with the bitten apple from paradise has to created a walled garden. The difference will be that there is no Steve to rescue them again. Funny thing is, their first logo was Newton's apple. Imagine the difference.
  - sdenton4 6y ago
    Well, Newton's life was heavily influenced by an intellectual property battle over the invention of calculus, and he spent his later life hunting and executing counterfeiters, so, maybe appropriate after all? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Later_life_of_Isaac_Newton#Achievements_and_influence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Later_life_of_Isaac_Newton#Ach...
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    While I see where you're coming from, I think there's a pretty big difference between software and hardware expandability. Anyone can write software for a Mac and run it, then and now. (Nowadays users need to right click to open apps from unidentified developers, but that's not so onerous.)
- redsky17 6y ago
  Have you considered SailfishOS? It can be run on a number of devices (including the PinePhone if that interests you): https://jolla.com/sailfishx/ https://jolla.com/sailfishx/ And more info about the PinePhone and it's OS support: https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone_Software_Releases https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone_Software_Release...
ethbro 6y ago
> there are times where I think they are asking to be regulated Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by corporate incompetence.

tornato7 6y ago

I really appreciate having the MacOS app store as a sort of "trusted" alternative to downloading off the web. That said I can't ever see Apple removing the ability to download applications from untrusted sources, like they did with iPhone.

encom 6y ago
Really? I can absolutely see that. It seems OSX has been creeping towards that for some time, and now they're moving to ARM and stuffing their machines with "security" chips, it's getting more and more locked down. Macintosh computers are steadily becoming iPads with hardware keyboards.
- madeofpalk 6y ago
  That is just not backed up in the actual events of what they are doing. If there was ever a time to do this it would be right now as they undergo changing Mac to ARM, but they're not.
  - olyjohn 6y ago
    I don't think the right time to make that transition is while they're trying to switch to ARM. Right now, they're probably trying to get things switched by making as few changes as possible. That eases the transition for everybody. I'm not sure why they would want to deal with both things at the same time. They are both huge undertakings. Not to mention, the two things are really unrelated. Besides, how does CPU architecture affect the ability to lock the OS into only running App Store apps?
- pier25 6y ago
  You think Apple could make Adobe, Autodesk, and countless others go through the Mac App Store?
  - bsaul 6y ago
    They've been already doing that for all the iOS version of their apps (which are now way past a simple player or viewer). Why not ? It's probably only a matter of time.
    - pier25 6y ago
      A couple of points: 1) Apple has much more leverage on iOS because it has a bigger market share and many more iOS users than macOS. 2) macOS has traditionally been an open platform 3) Many desktop app developers wouldn't be able to keep installing and running the products the way their do it now. For example, Adobe has an app called Creative Cloud that manages installs, licenses, active computers, and other things. It's practically malware at this point, but if you want to use Adobe apps there is no other way.
  - addicted 6y ago
    Yes, yes they can. The real question is if they can convince all the professionals those companies cater to to adopt an ecosystem where software providers have to go through an arbitrarily and closely controlled App Store. If their hardware and base OS is too attractive to those professionals relative to the loss of freedom Adobe, etc. will follow. Thankfully, though, I don’t think Mac users will actually be ok with that. There’s been quite an exodus of professionals from Mac to windows based on much smaller things so far.
- kace91 6y ago
  you can't really stop a desktop computer from running arbitrary software. If users can install compilers (which you pretty much have to allow), then all you can do is make them go through extra steps.
saagarjha 6y ago
> I really appreciate having the MacOS app store as a sort of "trusted" alternative to downloading off the web. But it's not, the Mac App Store is a dumpster fire.
- pier25 6y ago
  How come?
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Because there's a vibrant marketplace outside the store and Apple provides little benefit but takes 30%.
    - valuearb 6y ago
      It’s still far more trusted than buying on the web. That’s a significant benefit for developers.
      - raydev 6y ago
        It's only a benefit for Adobe and Microsoft and Slack who can call someone up at Apple and ask them to hand over the appropriate entitlements so their apps will function.
    - pier25 6y ago
      > provides little benefit but takes 30% I understand the MAS is not a great fit for all use cases, but IMO this statement is wrong for the use cases where the MAS is a good fit. I used the MAS as a dev, and it adds other benefits such as updates, cloud storage, etc. I used it specifically for an education app and it was just great to tell macOS users to simply download it from the MAS and let it handle the updates from there. Implementing updates on your own is not trivial in a desktop app. Before using the MAS we used Electron with Squirrel. We had to manage a server exclusively for the updates. Squirrel worked great in macOS but in Windows it was a nightmare. Also the Electron apps were huge, as you probably know. For the MAS app, we kept the web UI but moved to Swift + WKWebView. The app went from a 50MB download to about 4MB. Memory consumption also decreased dramatically, I think the Swift version used something like 10-15MB of RAM.

bsaul 6y ago

It's really ironic how having suffered from microsoft monopolistic abuses in the past, they now do the EXACT same thing. And the worst is that higher management probably convinced themselves they're not. Yeah, i believe only a trial will make them realize what they've become. PS: planning on buying a non-google non-apple phone in the future, after having had to buy a new iphone just so that i could install ios 13 and keep working (the old one being perfectly fine btw). Any advice ?

toohotatopic 6y ago
Apple has always been like that: https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Diagnostic_Port.txt https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&stor... Of course they will relive their desktop experience because some other environment will at some point be better due to fierce competition. It's kind of their omen that the company with the bitten apple from paradise has to created a walled garden. The difference will be that there is no Steve to rescue them again. Funny thing is, their first logo was Newton's apple. Imagine the difference.
- sdenton4 6y ago
  Well, Newton's life was heavily influenced by an intellectual property battle over the invention of calculus, and he spent his later life hunting and executing counterfeiters, so, maybe appropriate after all? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Later_life_of_Isaac_Newton#Achievements_and_influence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Later_life_of_Isaac_Newton#Ach...
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  While I see where you're coming from, I think there's a pretty big difference between software and hardware expandability. Anyone can write software for a Mac and run it, then and now. (Nowadays users need to right click to open apps from unidentified developers, but that's not so onerous.)
redsky17 6y ago
Have you considered SailfishOS? It can be run on a number of devices (including the PinePhone if that interests you): https://jolla.com/sailfishx/ https://jolla.com/sailfishx/ And more info about the PinePhone and it's OS support: https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone_Software_Releases https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone_Software_Release...

ethbro 6y ago

> there are times where I think they are asking to be regulated Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by corporate incompetence.