22 ms·

It's shocking to me how far ahead MacOS is in terms of keyboard shortcuts compared to all other operating systems. There absolutely has been some people there w

It's shocking to me how far ahead MacOS is in terms of keyboard shortcuts compared to all other operating systems. There absolutely has been some people there who deeply care and think long and hard about how experts use their systems even if the actual main company doesn't care so much about that segment anymore. Everything just makes sense logically and mnemonically like using shift to invert actions like cmd+z and cmd+shift+z rather than having ctrl+z and ctrl+y for undo/redo. Then add to this the ability to rebind any shortcuts in any app at an OS level. It's a little frustrating because I'm trying to move my computing away from Apple because I'm no longer convinced they care about Macs in the long term but just really wish either Microsoft would have the guts to throw a lot of their legacy out and fix all this stuff or that there were some way to actually achieve this level of coherence across the whole system on Linux.

beefield 6y ago
> It's shocking to me how far ahead MacOS is in terms of keyboard shortcuts compared to all other operating systems Yes, my all-time favourite is the shortcut fn-backspace for delete. How handy to not need to use a distinct delete button. Who would use that anyway? (sarcasm included)
- awakeasleep 6y ago
  For the record, layout choice on Apple's 60% keyboards is a different topic than operating system support for keyboard navigation. Also, I wish you luck on the quest for the perfect 60% keyboard. I'm on the same hunt, although I can make myself happy most anywhere if I have https://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org https://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org installed
- saagarjha 6y ago
  ⌃D
  - antipaul 6y ago
    Exactly. That's where those global so-called "readline" shortcuts come in ctrl - d for forward delete and then your fingers are close to all these other useful ones: ctrl - a, ctrl - b, ctrl -f, etc
- chipotle_coyote 6y ago
  You could just use a keyboard with a forward delete key, like the larger keyboards that Apple themselves sell. It turns out they work! If you don't have a keyboard with a forward delete key, having a shortcut to generate that code seems kind of handy to me. But complaining that Apple makes smaller keyboards that don't include that key while still offering the same functionality at the fairly trivial cost of having to use a modifier is, you know, also a choice!
WrongThinkerNo5 6y ago
I don't find it shocking at all, when you consider just how much farther advanced Apple is in so many different ways including disability accessibility (please let me know if you have ever seen a blind person that uses anything but an iPhone), inter-device sharing/airdrop, configuration sync across devices, etc.
- Amorymeltzer 6y ago
  (not disagreeing) It's been this way for decades. Learning to use a computer growing up, it was almost immediately apparent to me how widespread, useful, and discoverable Apple's keyboard shortcuts were on OS 8 or 9, especially when compared to Windows 3/3.1/95.
- userbinator 6y ago
  please let me know if you have ever seen a blind person that uses anything but an iPhone I have seen several blind people using Androids.
Macha 6y ago
Window management is one area where this is definitely not true. Window snapping is something people have to install Spectacle/Rectangle for and even then shortcuts to move windows to workspaces are sorely missing for me.
- Mindwipe 6y ago
  It still baffles me why every year Apple churns out bad UI changes for MacOS and at no point puts in window snapping.
  - Hackbraten 6y ago
    To be fair, 10.12 Sierra introduced a snap-to-edge-of-screen feature when moving a window, which I feel was a good first step.
  - violetgarden 6y ago
    Me too! Why do I have to use a third party app to snap my windows? It’s so cumbersome pressing the green button, clicking which side you want the app on, clicking which app you want on the other side. When you exit, one app goes full screen. It’s maddening.
- city41 6y ago
  Both are woefully behind a good Xorg based window manager. i3 blows Windows and OSX window management out of the water, no matter what add-on is installed. It's dangerous though, one of my biggest fears is getting a job that won't let me use Linux.
  - pkulak 6y ago
    I just won't take that job.
  - Macha 6y ago
    Oh I know. I use Windows (gaming), OS X (work) and Linux with i3 (most personal use) all on regular basis. i3 is obviously my preference for window management but my feeling is even Windows is noticeably ahead of OS X here.
pseudalopex 6y ago
It also supports Emacs/Readline shortcuts in text fields!
- KMnO4 6y ago
  Not all shortcuts but a good few. Ctrl-A/E to go to the beginning/end of a line, for example. You can even rebind these shortcuts and they’ll work in any text field. There’s even a hack to enable Vi-like shortcuts.
- 3JPLW 6y ago
  The clean separation between command-keys (for app-behavior) and control-keys (for emacs-like text navigation) is far and away my favorite aspect of using MacOS. I know it sounds crazy, but I navigate through text far more frequently than anything else. The ability to further customize[1] these to support meta-keys (using option) and rebinding caps-lock to control makes for a very powerful experience. 1. http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/Site/Cocoa%20Text%20System.html http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/Site/Cocoa%20Text%20System....
  - cupcupcup 6y ago
    This. Almost as important as the superior trackpad, these keybindings push laptop-macOS eons above any other laptop-OS combination. When using Windows, I prefer having at least a tenkeyless layout, as the arrows, home/end, page up/page down, delete can do most of the same navigational behaviors but obviously are rarely found on a laptop.
lordgrenville 6y ago
Wow, my experience couldn't be more different. I think my biggest annoyance is how ⌘-Tab ignores different windows of the same program, so I constantly have to switch between ⌘-Tab and ⌘-`.
- rktdno 6y ago
  I would suggest that’s a feature, not a bug.
- jiripospisil 6y ago
  The funny thing is this is one of my favorite features, it keeps the switcher uncluttered. If you don't like it, you can use "Mission Control" (Control+Up Arrow) that will show you all windows across all applications (pressing Control+Down Arrow is the same but only within windows of the current application). You can also switch with Command+Tab and once you hover over the application you want, you can press Command+Down Arrow (or Up Arrow or even Key 1) and that will show you all windows within that application (the same as Control+Down Arrow). Notice that each window has a title and you can press the initial letter and that window will get focus. You can then press Enter to select it.
  - mtrower 6y ago
    >Notice that each window has a title and you can press the initial letter and that window will get focus. You can then press Enter to select it. Oh, nice! Thanks for this.
  - shuntress 6y ago
    This could be use case dependent but I find that as a developer, I frequently want to cycle between 3-5 windows in 2-3 applications. Text editor, 2-3 browser windows (generally: thing I am working on, browser dev-tools for the thing I am working on, and reference web-pages), and 1-2 terminal windows. In this specific use case, I found all the little differences between Windows and MacOS window switching to end up adding together in Window's favor fairly significantly.
    - 6y ago
reportgunner 6y ago
> cmd+z and cmd+shift+z I think it's because ctrl+z and ctrl+y are easy to press, while cmd+y is hard to press because of the bad placement of the cmd key. > Option-Command-Esc (from the link) I would like to see how you press this combo with your left hand only, Alt+F4 is not ideal but much easier if I raise my left elbow away from my body.
- dan_hawkins 6y ago
  I'm left handed: side of thumb on Option and Command, middle finger on Esc. Voila!
  - reportgunner 6y ago
    Cheers I did not realize you can press two buttons with one finger, perhaps because I use mechanical keyboards so much.
    - wtallis 6y ago
      Another thing you might not realize is that Mac spacebars are narrower, which puts the command keys closer to the center of the keyboard where they can more easily be reached using thumbs. Alt on a PC keyboard is harder to reach than Command on a Mac keyboard.
      - antipaul 6y ago
        Not to mention getting pinky syndromes from using ctrl so much. It feels that command being close to thumb (macOS) is a much better design than using pinky with control (Windows)
        reportgunner 6y ago
        I often press Ctrl with my thumb though.
      - kergonath 6y ago
jasode 6y ago
>It's shocking to me how far ahead MacOS is in terms of keyboard shortcuts compared to all other operating systems. [...] Everything just makes sense logically and mnemonically [...] I get your point but macOS still has inconveniences for many tasks: - maximize a window: on MS Windows, it's Winkey+UpArrow. On macos, it's more complicated: https://superuser.com/questions/718600/keyboard-shortcut-to-maximize-current-window-application-in-osx https://superuser.com/questions/718600/keyboard-shortcut-to-... - bring up file manager: on Windows to bring up File Explorer, it's Winkey+E. On macos, it took until Yosemite 10.10 to provide a non-intuitive keyboard shortcut for Finder: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/114933/is-there-a-keyboard-shortcut-to-bring-up-finder https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/114933/is-there-a-... - view active process list: on Windows, it's Ctrl+Shift-Esc to bring up Task Manager. On macOS to bring up Activity Monitor, it's more complicated: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/1520/is-there-a-keyboard-shortcut-for-launching-activity-monitor https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/1520/is-there-a-ke...
- cassianoleal 6y ago
  Bring up Finder: ⌘␣ "finder" ⏎ Bring up Activity Monitor: ⌘␣ "am" ⏎ Hardly difficult, especially for the pros who tend to be touch typists. There's also ⌥⌘esc if you just want to quickly kill an app. Also for Finder, you can enable the "Show Finder search window" Spotlight shortcut and set it to whattever pleases you.
  - jasode 6y ago
    >Bring up Finder: ⌘␣ "finder" ⏎ That's 9 keys (including "return" key) pressed vs just 2 for Winkey+E. >Hardly difficult, Well, we're on HN so I don't claim things are "difficult" for any of us techies. I say it's "inconvenient" -- especially relative to other operating systems since this thread is making comparisons. >Also for Finder, you can enable [...] Sure, there are often workarounds for various inconveniences. The Superuser links I cited mentioned some too.
    - klodolph 6y ago
      On a Mac, you can switch to the Finder and ⌘N. Not possible on Windows because on Windows, an application cannot be in the foreground if it does not have any windows. Once you have the Finder window open you have column view, and you can browse the filesystem with nothing more than arrow keys (and no modifiers). Preview any document with space. Rename documents without reaching over to the F-keys.
blauditore 6y ago
I had quite the opposite experience. It was a few years ago when I tried to switch from Windows/Linux, but the lack of keyboard support in certian situations drove me nuts; I even remember one system popup notification with a single "Ok" button which I couldn't get rid of by keyboard (Enter, Spacebar, Esc... - no effect). Meanwhile, in many Linux DEs, especially the combination of keyboard and mouse allows for super quick window management (resizing and moving while holding a modifier like Alt, which AFAIK is impossible natively under Windows or MacOS).
- mindfulhack 6y ago
  - You can get rid of those annoying pop-up notifications by doing Cmd-Period (Cmd+.) It will work when even Esc / Cmd+W won't! It's a hidden shortcut not many know about, and not on the linked Apple shortcuts page. - You can make all those system dialogs navigable (to use tab and spacebar to execute buttons) by enabling: System Preferences > Keyboard > Shortcuts > "Use keyboard navigation to move focus between controls". It can take years to learn everything that macOS secretly offers, but no more than it took me to be at that level on Windows, or any Linux DE. I agree though, multiple Linux DEs seem superior to both macOS and Windows with their out-of-the-box hotkey ability. For everything else, there's Mastercard, uh, AutoKey.
  - giantrobot 6y ago
    The Command + . was sort of a general "stop" shortcut on Classic MacOS. Most apps with some sort of cancelable operation used it to stop the operation which often caused the modal to be dismissed. Since old MacOS had cooperative multitasking if an app started some task that never offered control back to the OS it monopolized the system. Many (but not all) apps used the Command + . shortcut to cancel those sorts of tasks.
  - sixstringtheory 6y ago
    And for those who'd like to use a keyboard shortcut to toggle keyboard control of system dialogs, there's ctrl + F7. Although I see this is no longer displayed in the system preferences area you mention, but just tested and it still works on 10.15.6. Wonder if this is the first step in that keyboard shortcut's removal due to the touch bar.
dizzystar 6y ago
My biggest irritation with MacOS is CMD-Tab back to Finder breaks constantly. Then the terminal short cuts are bound to CTL, and at least on my Macbook Pro, CTL is only on one side. I also don't like how Return is "change a file name" instead of "run a file." There are so many things that are inconsistent with other OS's, that I guess it just comes down to what you are used to. I've found that MacOS is much more touch-pad / mouse heavy than other OS's. For example, CTL-K is awesome for browsing through a Linux folder system. This would put you in the path area, so you can sort of use it like a terminal. Browsing finder in MacOS is painful, click here, click there, hope you don't get lost, etc.
- ascagnel_ 6y ago
  > at least on my Macbook Pro, CTL is only on one side This is standard for modern Macs; that said, one of the first things I do with a system is use the "Keyboard" preference pane to remap caps lock to Control ("Keyboard" -> "Modifier Keys").
  - dizzystar 6y ago
    Right, it'd probably be more convenient to have ctl on the right side of the keyboard. I could see how using caps-a (b, f, e, r, s) to navigate the terminal could be easier. Maybe I'll try it.
- specialist 6y ago
  FWIW, binaryage's TotalFinder has a hotkey feature called Visor. https://totalfinder.binaryage.com https://totalfinder.binaryage.com macOS stock Finder does have basic cursor key navigation. It's not Xtree, NortonCommander awesome. (Edit: Oops. This linked cheatsheet does list the Finder navigation keys.) I've always coveted the Canon Cat's utopian interface, but have never actually tried it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Cat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Cat
- Hackbraten 6y ago
  > I've found that MacOS is much more touch-pad / mouse heavy than other OS's. For example, CTL-K is awesome for browsing through a Linux folder system. This would put you in the path area, so you can sort of use it like a terminal. macOS’s Finder has the _Go to folder_ (⇧⌘G) command for that. It’s not exactly the same but it basically allows you to do the same thing.
AnonHP 6y ago
> It's shocking to me how far ahead MacOS is in terms of keyboard shortcuts compared to all other operating systems. I agree with your other points (including easier customizability), but have to completely disagree with this quoted sentence. In my experience of using macOS/OS X/Mac OS X as well as Windows and Linux, macOS is one OS where a user cannot avoid using the mouse or trackpad! On Windows (and mostly in Linux too), I can navigate the entire system, application menus and UI controls without touching the mouse or trackpad, relying only on the keyboard. The same on a Mac would be frustrating because keyboard navigation, especially for menus, is cumbersome. There are many Apple apps that cannot be completely controlled just using the keyboard either. There are many UI controls (including in dialogs) that just need a mouse or keyboard. When I find these instances, for me it's like death by a thousand paper cuts (note: I do have preferences set to navigate through all controls when hitting Tab). If you disagree with my assessment, please try this using only the keyboard (no mouse or trackpad) and see how cumbersome it is (not to mention inconsistent in certain ways with the rest of the system too): * Open System Preferences * Open the Keyboard settings (just an example) * Navigate from one tab to another within the settings Of course, I'd like to know how something like this can be done faster using the keyboard.
- tomduncalf 6y ago
  I do actually agree with you in general, felt Windows was easier to navigate with the keyboard - especially menus - but that specific one can be done reasonably easily as long you've enabled "Use keyboard navigation..." in Keyboard preferences > Shortcuts: 1. Cmd-space to get Spotlight, "pref" to match System Preferences (on my machine at least), Enter 2. Search is auto highlighted so type "keyb", down arrow, Enter 3. Tab to focus on tab bar, left/right arrow key to move between tabs (this one is a bit buggy, seems the "Text" tab steals the focus so you have to shift-tab back to the tab bar)
  - snypox 6y ago
    You can do the first one on Windows. Press Windows button then type anything.
TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
On Windows, AutoHotKey is your friend. I just converted my MacBook Air to Windows 10 because I want-need AutoHotKey everywhere. That and I’m tired of the GUI looking progressively more like a box of candy.
- awakeasleep 6y ago
  If you ever have to go back, Hammerspoon is the AHK like app for macOS, and karabiner elements can do advanced remapping if you don't need the scripting.
  - tcoff91 6y ago
    Is Hammerspoon as good as Keyboard Maestro? I feel like Keyboard Maestro has been the definitive automation tool so I'm curious how Hammerspoon compares.
- whywhywhywhy 6y ago
  Yeah everyone suggests AutoHotKey, I tried it and found it insanely janky. It just isn't an acceptable solution at all and I wish Windows users would demand better. Really think better is possible and don't think it's even a hard problem.
- kergonath 6y ago
  > That and I’m tired of the GUI looking progressively more like a box of candy. I assume you weren’t around during the early Aqua days.
DrBazza 6y ago
I find the Mac shortcuts odd, opposite to you. Some you need to be have octopus fingers to hit them with one hand, and others are particularly weird such as screenshot (cmd+alt+4/3 isn't it?) - windows is just "something" + printscreen. Windows keyboard shortcuts tend to feel a bit more ergonomic to me, but then I've used Windows much more than the Mac.
- donarb 6y ago
  Screenshots are cmd-shift 3 or 4 or 5. Cmd shift is a familiar enough chord in Mac OS keyboarding, it's used quite a lot. The differences between the 3 types of screen shorting is that Cmd-shift 3 immediately screenshots the whole screen. Cmd-shift 4 lets you select the area that is captured, pressing the space bar after hitting the key combo turns the cursor into a camera that allows you to screenshot just a window by hovering and clicking. Cmd-shift 5 gives you even more options including screen recording.
  - kps 6y ago
    Also, Command-Shift-1 and -2 force eject the first and second floppy, respectively, so you don't have to go find a paper clip.
    - mtrower 6y ago
      Brilliant! My productivity will increase by 20%! =)
  - camel_Snake 6y ago
    I recently discovered Cmd-ctrl-shift-3 and 4, which does the usual screenshotting but moves the image to your clipboard rather than automatically creating a new file.
gumby 6y ago
It’s true you can use a mac with a broken (partially functional) trackpad — I did for a couple of years and it wasn’t a noticeable impairment...but I’ve been an Emacs user since the 70s so am keyboard-by-default already. But I can’t say the Mac is the best: Windows, back in the Gates days, had keyboard commands for almost everything at his insistence (some of the PMs weren’t enthusiastic but couldn’t go against him of course). I’m not a windows fan (prefer the Mac’s direct manipulation approach to the subject-verb-object model at the foundation of Windows) but I really respected and appreciated that commitment by MS.
hota_mazi 6y ago
> It's shocking to me how far ahead MacOS is in terms of keyboard shortcuts compared to all other operating systems. Er, what?!? macOS is still not able to let you navigate menus with shortcuts. I can't even reliably open the File menu on macOS with my keyboard. It's been "Alt-f" on Windows for over two decades.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  ⌘? → → →
  - antipaul 6y ago
    yep or `⌘?` and then `Tab` to cycle, if arrow keys are too far
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      Sadly the text field grabs first responder, so the tab key gets redirected there until you escape it.
- Hackbraten 6y ago
  With keyboard shortcuts fully enabled, you can hit Ctrl-F2 f <Enter>.
the_gipsy 6y ago
I perceived MacOS as the most keyboard-hostile OS. So many actions are mouse/gesture only.
starbugs 6y ago
I agree. To the point where they introduced the touch bar. Now there is no way to sleep your MBP with a keyboard shortcut. You now have to add a button to the touch bar, which you then accidentally press and your MBP goes to sleep while you are in the midst of typing out an email. Genius!
fortran77 6y ago
> It's shocking to me how far ahead MacOS is in terms of keyboard shortcuts compared to all other operating systems. It's shocking to me that people will make authoritative sounding comments about systems that they don't use, and get their facts wrong. It's shocking to me that the supposedly bright people on Hacker News upvote it. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/12445 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/12445
NOGDP 6y ago
> It's shocking to me how far ahead MacOS is in terms of keyboard shortcuts compared to all other operating systems. You only think that because you're used to macos shortcuts. > There absolutely has been some people there who deeply care and think long and hard about how experts use their systems even if the actual main company doesn't care so much about that segment anymore. Do any macbooks have a numpad? Lack of a numpad is the opposite of 'thinking long and hard about how experts use their systems'. > Everything just makes sense logically and mnemonically like using shift to invert actions like cmd+z and cmd+shift+z rather than having ctrl+z and ctrl+y for undo/redo. ctrl+z/ctrl+shift+z, tab/shift+tab, etc, is how my fairly default linux system works. > Then add to this the ability to rebind any shortcuts in any app at an OS level. You can do this on pretty much any operating system. > were some way to actually achieve this level of coherence across the whole system on Linux. What level of coherence? All you said is you prefer macos default shortcuts...? If we're talking about support for customisation then macos is laughably far behind linux in every single respect. My own experience, being forced to work with macos for the last few years has been quite annoying. The UI is very buggy, the app bar auto-hide constantly breaks, windows randomly disappear, macos has it's own weird (coherent?) set of shortcuts different from every other operating system, there is an insane amount of popups and notifications, maximising/fullscreening a window creates a new workspace which complicates quickly switching between windows, etc. Ability to customize the system is okay... still far behind linux. I literally do not see a single benefit of macos over linux.
- avasthe 6y ago
  Some user communities come across as very vocal to me. It is generally Apple users, JavaScript/Rust/Ruby developers, Privacy enthusiasts.
baldfat 6y ago
I use Windows, Linux and Mac OS (Work requiered) Mac OS has the worst shortcuts in my opinion. Desktop short cut! How is there no Shortcut for seeing the Desktop? Legacy of Steve Jobs doing the opposite of Windows is also a killer. Mouse Scroll wheel is opposite, close open windows icon on left and not right, not using Control but use Command key. These are not due to any reason other then to make it difficult to work between Windows and Apple. Drives me CRAZY because I have to use Apple and Windows.
- jseliger 6y ago
  * How is there no Shortcut for seeing the Desktop* F11 for expose?
- Cockbrand 6y ago
  ⌘F3 shows the desktop. You can have a button for this on the Touch Bar. The Mac has been released in 1984 with the close icon on the left side of the window's title bar, and keyboard shortcuts using the command key located directly to the left (later also to the right) of the space bar. Windows has been released over a year later in 1985 with its own paradigm for these. So it seems like in fact, Windows has been designed to do things differently from the Mac, not the other way around.
  - cesarb 6y ago
    > The Mac has been released in 1984 with the close icon on the left side of the window's title bar [...] So it seems like in fact, Windows has been designed to do things differently from the Mac The Windows which was released on that era also had the close function on the left side of the windows's title bar. The right side had only the minimize/maximize buttons. Moving the close function to the right side of the title bar came much later. > and keyboard shortcuts using the command key located directly to the left (later also to the right) of the space bar. Windows had to work with the PC keyboards of that era, which did not have that key. Much later, Microsoft gained enough influence to mandate adding a couple of extra keys to the keyboard (the "Windows" and "Menu" keys), but by then, the shortcuts had already become established (not to mention that many people still had old keyboards without these keys).
alwillis 6y ago
>It's a little frustrating because I'm trying to move my computing away from Apple because I'm no longer convinced they care about Macs in the long term… They just committed to transition the Mac platform to arguably the most performant (per watt) architecture available and just released the public beta Big Sur. If they didn't care about the Mac long term, why on Earth would they go through the trouble of making this transition? The Mac just set a June quarter record of $7.1 billion in revenue, up 22% from last year. These numbers give Apple a lot to care about: https://www.apple.com/investor/earnings-call/ https://www.apple.com/investor/earnings-call/
avasthe 6y ago
I couldn't care less how apple microoptimizes keyboard interaction. Now that shortcuts are mostly uniform across Windows and Linux, better they would be same on Macs too.
- sbuk 6y ago
  So break 37 years of consistency because Microsoft decided to basically replicate it (9 years after the fact, btw) using a key-chord that was already in use for SIGINT and that Gnome and KDE copied, shortsightedly given their target base OS?

beefield 6y ago

> It's shocking to me how far ahead MacOS is in terms of keyboard shortcuts compared to all other operating systems Yes, my all-time favourite is the shortcut fn-backspace for delete. How handy to not need to use a distinct delete button. Who would use that anyway? (sarcasm included)

awakeasleep 6y ago
For the record, layout choice on Apple's 60% keyboards is a different topic than operating system support for keyboard navigation. Also, I wish you luck on the quest for the perfect 60% keyboard. I'm on the same hunt, although I can make myself happy most anywhere if I have https://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org https://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org installed
saagarjha 6y ago
⌃D
- antipaul 6y ago
  Exactly. That's where those global so-called "readline" shortcuts come in ctrl - d for forward delete and then your fingers are close to all these other useful ones: ctrl - a, ctrl - b, ctrl -f, etc
chipotle_coyote 6y ago
You could just use a keyboard with a forward delete key, like the larger keyboards that Apple themselves sell. It turns out they work! If you don't have a keyboard with a forward delete key, having a shortcut to generate that code seems kind of handy to me. But complaining that Apple makes smaller keyboards that don't include that key while still offering the same functionality at the fairly trivial cost of having to use a modifier is, you know, also a choice!

WrongThinkerNo5 6y ago

I don't find it shocking at all, when you consider just how much farther advanced Apple is in so many different ways including disability accessibility (please let me know if you have ever seen a blind person that uses anything but an iPhone), inter-device sharing/airdrop, configuration sync across devices, etc.

Amorymeltzer 6y ago
(not disagreeing) It's been this way for decades. Learning to use a computer growing up, it was almost immediately apparent to me how widespread, useful, and discoverable Apple's keyboard shortcuts were on OS 8 or 9, especially when compared to Windows 3/3.1/95.
userbinator 6y ago
please let me know if you have ever seen a blind person that uses anything but an iPhone I have seen several blind people using Androids.

Macha 6y ago

Window management is one area where this is definitely not true. Window snapping is something people have to install Spectacle/Rectangle for and even then shortcuts to move windows to workspaces are sorely missing for me.

Mindwipe 6y ago
It still baffles me why every year Apple churns out bad UI changes for MacOS and at no point puts in window snapping.
- Hackbraten 6y ago
  To be fair, 10.12 Sierra introduced a snap-to-edge-of-screen feature when moving a window, which I feel was a good first step.
- violetgarden 6y ago
  Me too! Why do I have to use a third party app to snap my windows? It’s so cumbersome pressing the green button, clicking which side you want the app on, clicking which app you want on the other side. When you exit, one app goes full screen. It’s maddening.
city41 6y ago
Both are woefully behind a good Xorg based window manager. i3 blows Windows and OSX window management out of the water, no matter what add-on is installed. It's dangerous though, one of my biggest fears is getting a job that won't let me use Linux.
- pkulak 6y ago
  I just won't take that job.
- Macha 6y ago
  Oh I know. I use Windows (gaming), OS X (work) and Linux with i3 (most personal use) all on regular basis. i3 is obviously my preference for window management but my feeling is even Windows is noticeably ahead of OS X here.

pseudalopex 6y ago

It also supports Emacs/Readline shortcuts in text fields!

KMnO4 6y ago
Not all shortcuts but a good few. Ctrl-A/E to go to the beginning/end of a line, for example. You can even rebind these shortcuts and they’ll work in any text field. There’s even a hack to enable Vi-like shortcuts.
3JPLW 6y ago
The clean separation between command-keys (for app-behavior) and control-keys (for emacs-like text navigation) is far and away my favorite aspect of using MacOS. I know it sounds crazy, but I navigate through text far more frequently than anything else. The ability to further customize[1] these to support meta-keys (using option) and rebinding caps-lock to control makes for a very powerful experience. 1. http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/Site/Cocoa%20Text%20System.html http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/Site/Cocoa%20Text%20System....
- cupcupcup 6y ago
  This. Almost as important as the superior trackpad, these keybindings push laptop-macOS eons above any other laptop-OS combination. When using Windows, I prefer having at least a tenkeyless layout, as the arrows, home/end, page up/page down, delete can do most of the same navigational behaviors but obviously are rarely found on a laptop.

lordgrenville 6y ago

Wow, my experience couldn't be more different. I think my biggest annoyance is how ⌘-Tab ignores different windows of the same program, so I constantly have to switch between ⌘-Tab and ⌘-`.

rktdno 6y ago
I would suggest that’s a feature, not a bug.
jiripospisil 6y ago
The funny thing is this is one of my favorite features, it keeps the switcher uncluttered. If you don't like it, you can use "Mission Control" (Control+Up Arrow) that will show you all windows across all applications (pressing Control+Down Arrow is the same but only within windows of the current application). You can also switch with Command+Tab and once you hover over the application you want, you can press Command+Down Arrow (or Up Arrow or even Key 1) and that will show you all windows within that application (the same as Control+Down Arrow). Notice that each window has a title and you can press the initial letter and that window will get focus. You can then press Enter to select it.
- mtrower 6y ago
  >Notice that each window has a title and you can press the initial letter and that window will get focus. You can then press Enter to select it. Oh, nice! Thanks for this.
- shuntress 6y ago
  This could be use case dependent but I find that as a developer, I frequently want to cycle between 3-5 windows in 2-3 applications. Text editor, 2-3 browser windows (generally: thing I am working on, browser dev-tools for the thing I am working on, and reference web-pages), and 1-2 terminal windows. In this specific use case, I found all the little differences between Windows and MacOS window switching to end up adding together in Window's favor fairly significantly.
  - 6y ago

reportgunner 6y ago

> cmd+z and cmd+shift+z I think it's because ctrl+z and ctrl+y are easy to press, while cmd+y is hard to press because of the bad placement of the cmd key. > Option-Command-Esc (from the link) I would like to see how you press this combo with your left hand only, Alt+F4 is not ideal but much easier if I raise my left elbow away from my body.

dan_hawkins 6y ago
I'm left handed: side of thumb on Option and Command, middle finger on Esc. Voila!
- reportgunner 6y ago
  Cheers I did not realize you can press two buttons with one finger, perhaps because I use mechanical keyboards so much.
  - wtallis 6y ago
    Another thing you might not realize is that Mac spacebars are narrower, which puts the command keys closer to the center of the keyboard where they can more easily be reached using thumbs. Alt on a PC keyboard is harder to reach than Command on a Mac keyboard.
    - antipaul 6y ago
      Not to mention getting pinky syndromes from using ctrl so much. It feels that command being close to thumb (macOS) is a much better design than using pinky with control (Windows)
      - reportgunner 6y ago
        I often press Ctrl with my thumb though.
    - kergonath 6y ago

jasode 6y ago

>It's shocking to me how far ahead MacOS is in terms of keyboard shortcuts compared to all other operating systems. [...] Everything just makes sense logically and mnemonically [...] I get your point but macOS still has inconveniences for many tasks: - maximize a window: on MS Windows, it's Winkey+UpArrow. On macos, it's more complicated: https://superuser.com/questions/718600/keyboard-shortcut-to-maximize-current-window-application-in-osx https://superuser.com/questions/718600/keyboard-shortcut-to-... - bring up file manager: on Windows to bring up File Explorer, it's Winkey+E. On macos, it took until Yosemite 10.10 to provide a non-intuitive keyboard shortcut for Finder: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/114933/is-there-a-keyboard-shortcut-to-bring-up-finder https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/114933/is-there-a-... - view active process list: on Windows, it's Ctrl+Shift-Esc to bring up Task Manager. On macOS to bring up Activity Monitor, it's more complicated: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/1520/is-there-a-keyboard-shortcut-for-launching-activity-monitor https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/1520/is-there-a-ke...

cassianoleal 6y ago
Bring up Finder: ⌘␣ "finder" ⏎ Bring up Activity Monitor: ⌘␣ "am" ⏎ Hardly difficult, especially for the pros who tend to be touch typists. There's also ⌥⌘esc if you just want to quickly kill an app. Also for Finder, you can enable the "Show Finder search window" Spotlight shortcut and set it to whattever pleases you.
- jasode 6y ago
  >Bring up Finder: ⌘␣ "finder" ⏎ That's 9 keys (including "return" key) pressed vs just 2 for Winkey+E. >Hardly difficult, Well, we're on HN so I don't claim things are "difficult" for any of us techies. I say it's "inconvenient" -- especially relative to other operating systems since this thread is making comparisons. >Also for Finder, you can enable [...] Sure, there are often workarounds for various inconveniences. The Superuser links I cited mentioned some too.
  - klodolph 6y ago
    On a Mac, you can switch to the Finder and ⌘N. Not possible on Windows because on Windows, an application cannot be in the foreground if it does not have any windows. Once you have the Finder window open you have column view, and you can browse the filesystem with nothing more than arrow keys (and no modifiers). Preview any document with space. Rename documents without reaching over to the F-keys.

blauditore 6y ago

I had quite the opposite experience. It was a few years ago when I tried to switch from Windows/Linux, but the lack of keyboard support in certian situations drove me nuts; I even remember one system popup notification with a single "Ok" button which I couldn't get rid of by keyboard (Enter, Spacebar, Esc... - no effect). Meanwhile, in many Linux DEs, especially the combination of keyboard and mouse allows for super quick window management (resizing and moving while holding a modifier like Alt, which AFAIK is impossible natively under Windows or MacOS).

mindfulhack 6y ago
- You can get rid of those annoying pop-up notifications by doing Cmd-Period (Cmd+.) It will work when even Esc / Cmd+W won't! It's a hidden shortcut not many know about, and not on the linked Apple shortcuts page. - You can make all those system dialogs navigable (to use tab and spacebar to execute buttons) by enabling: System Preferences > Keyboard > Shortcuts > "Use keyboard navigation to move focus between controls". It can take years to learn everything that macOS secretly offers, but no more than it took me to be at that level on Windows, or any Linux DE. I agree though, multiple Linux DEs seem superior to both macOS and Windows with their out-of-the-box hotkey ability. For everything else, there's Mastercard, uh, AutoKey.
- giantrobot 6y ago
  The Command + . was sort of a general "stop" shortcut on Classic MacOS. Most apps with some sort of cancelable operation used it to stop the operation which often caused the modal to be dismissed. Since old MacOS had cooperative multitasking if an app started some task that never offered control back to the OS it monopolized the system. Many (but not all) apps used the Command + . shortcut to cancel those sorts of tasks.
- sixstringtheory 6y ago
  And for those who'd like to use a keyboard shortcut to toggle keyboard control of system dialogs, there's ctrl + F7. Although I see this is no longer displayed in the system preferences area you mention, but just tested and it still works on 10.15.6. Wonder if this is the first step in that keyboard shortcut's removal due to the touch bar.

dizzystar 6y ago

My biggest irritation with MacOS is CMD-Tab back to Finder breaks constantly. Then the terminal short cuts are bound to CTL, and at least on my Macbook Pro, CTL is only on one side. I also don't like how Return is "change a file name" instead of "run a file." There are so many things that are inconsistent with other OS's, that I guess it just comes down to what you are used to. I've found that MacOS is much more touch-pad / mouse heavy than other OS's. For example, CTL-K is awesome for browsing through a Linux folder system. This would put you in the path area, so you can sort of use it like a terminal. Browsing finder in MacOS is painful, click here, click there, hope you don't get lost, etc.

ascagnel_ 6y ago
> at least on my Macbook Pro, CTL is only on one side This is standard for modern Macs; that said, one of the first things I do with a system is use the "Keyboard" preference pane to remap caps lock to Control ("Keyboard" -> "Modifier Keys").
- dizzystar 6y ago
  Right, it'd probably be more convenient to have ctl on the right side of the keyboard. I could see how using caps-a (b, f, e, r, s) to navigate the terminal could be easier. Maybe I'll try it.
specialist 6y ago
FWIW, binaryage's TotalFinder has a hotkey feature called Visor. https://totalfinder.binaryage.com https://totalfinder.binaryage.com macOS stock Finder does have basic cursor key navigation. It's not Xtree, NortonCommander awesome. (Edit: Oops. This linked cheatsheet does list the Finder navigation keys.) I've always coveted the Canon Cat's utopian interface, but have never actually tried it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Cat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Cat
Hackbraten 6y ago
> I've found that MacOS is much more touch-pad / mouse heavy than other OS's. For example, CTL-K is awesome for browsing through a Linux folder system. This would put you in the path area, so you can sort of use it like a terminal. macOS’s Finder has the _Go to folder_ (⇧⌘G) command for that. It’s not exactly the same but it basically allows you to do the same thing.

AnonHP 6y ago

> It's shocking to me how far ahead MacOS is in terms of keyboard shortcuts compared to all other operating systems. I agree with your other points (including easier customizability), but have to completely disagree with this quoted sentence. In my experience of using macOS/OS X/Mac OS X as well as Windows and Linux, macOS is one OS where a user cannot avoid using the mouse or trackpad! On Windows (and mostly in Linux too), I can navigate the entire system, application menus and UI controls without touching the mouse or trackpad, relying only on the keyboard. The same on a Mac would be frustrating because keyboard navigation, especially for menus, is cumbersome. There are many Apple apps that cannot be completely controlled just using the keyboard either. There are many UI controls (including in dialogs) that just need a mouse or keyboard. When I find these instances, for me it's like death by a thousand paper cuts (note: I do have preferences set to navigate through all controls when hitting Tab). If you disagree with my assessment, please try this using only the keyboard (no mouse or trackpad) and see how cumbersome it is (not to mention inconsistent in certain ways with the rest of the system too): * Open System Preferences * Open the Keyboard settings (just an example) * Navigate from one tab to another within the settings Of course, I'd like to know how something like this can be done faster using the keyboard.

tomduncalf 6y ago
I do actually agree with you in general, felt Windows was easier to navigate with the keyboard - especially menus - but that specific one can be done reasonably easily as long you've enabled "Use keyboard navigation..." in Keyboard preferences > Shortcuts: 1. Cmd-space to get Spotlight, "pref" to match System Preferences (on my machine at least), Enter 2. Search is auto highlighted so type "keyb", down arrow, Enter 3. Tab to focus on tab bar, left/right arrow key to move between tabs (this one is a bit buggy, seems the "Text" tab steals the focus so you have to shift-tab back to the tab bar)
- snypox 6y ago
  You can do the first one on Windows. Press Windows button then type anything.

TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago

On Windows, AutoHotKey is your friend. I just converted my MacBook Air to Windows 10 because I want-need AutoHotKey everywhere. That and I’m tired of the GUI looking progressively more like a box of candy.

awakeasleep 6y ago
If you ever have to go back, Hammerspoon is the AHK like app for macOS, and karabiner elements can do advanced remapping if you don't need the scripting.
- tcoff91 6y ago
  Is Hammerspoon as good as Keyboard Maestro? I feel like Keyboard Maestro has been the definitive automation tool so I'm curious how Hammerspoon compares.
whywhywhywhy 6y ago
Yeah everyone suggests AutoHotKey, I tried it and found it insanely janky. It just isn't an acceptable solution at all and I wish Windows users would demand better. Really think better is possible and don't think it's even a hard problem.
kergonath 6y ago
> That and I’m tired of the GUI looking progressively more like a box of candy. I assume you weren’t around during the early Aqua days.

DrBazza 6y ago

I find the Mac shortcuts odd, opposite to you. Some you need to be have octopus fingers to hit them with one hand, and others are particularly weird such as screenshot (cmd+alt+4/3 isn't it?) - windows is just "something" + printscreen. Windows keyboard shortcuts tend to feel a bit more ergonomic to me, but then I've used Windows much more than the Mac.

donarb 6y ago
Screenshots are cmd-shift 3 or 4 or 5. Cmd shift is a familiar enough chord in Mac OS keyboarding, it's used quite a lot. The differences between the 3 types of screen shorting is that Cmd-shift 3 immediately screenshots the whole screen. Cmd-shift 4 lets you select the area that is captured, pressing the space bar after hitting the key combo turns the cursor into a camera that allows you to screenshot just a window by hovering and clicking. Cmd-shift 5 gives you even more options including screen recording.
- kps 6y ago
  Also, Command-Shift-1 and -2 force eject the first and second floppy, respectively, so you don't have to go find a paper clip.
  - mtrower 6y ago
    Brilliant! My productivity will increase by 20%! =)
- camel_Snake 6y ago
  I recently discovered Cmd-ctrl-shift-3 and 4, which does the usual screenshotting but moves the image to your clipboard rather than automatically creating a new file.

gumby 6y ago

It’s true you can use a mac with a broken (partially functional) trackpad — I did for a couple of years and it wasn’t a noticeable impairment...but I’ve been an Emacs user since the 70s so am keyboard-by-default already. But I can’t say the Mac is the best: Windows, back in the Gates days, had keyboard commands for almost everything at his insistence (some of the PMs weren’t enthusiastic but couldn’t go against him of course). I’m not a windows fan (prefer the Mac’s direct manipulation approach to the subject-verb-object model at the foundation of Windows) but I really respected and appreciated that commitment by MS.

hota_mazi 6y ago

> It's shocking to me how far ahead MacOS is in terms of keyboard shortcuts compared to all other operating systems. Er, what?!? macOS is still not able to let you navigate menus with shortcuts. I can't even reliably open the File menu on macOS with my keyboard. It's been "Alt-f" on Windows for over two decades.

saagarjha 6y ago
⌘? → → →
- antipaul 6y ago
  yep or `⌘?` and then `Tab` to cycle, if arrow keys are too far
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Sadly the text field grabs first responder, so the tab key gets redirected there until you escape it.
Hackbraten 6y ago
With keyboard shortcuts fully enabled, you can hit Ctrl-F2 f <Enter>.

the_gipsy 6y ago

I perceived MacOS as the most keyboard-hostile OS. So many actions are mouse/gesture only.

starbugs 6y ago

I agree. To the point where they introduced the touch bar. Now there is no way to sleep your MBP with a keyboard shortcut. You now have to add a button to the touch bar, which you then accidentally press and your MBP goes to sleep while you are in the midst of typing out an email. Genius!

fortran77 6y ago

> It's shocking to me how far ahead MacOS is in terms of keyboard shortcuts compared to all other operating systems. It's shocking to me that people will make authoritative sounding comments about systems that they don't use, and get their facts wrong. It's shocking to me that the supposedly bright people on Hacker News upvote it. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/12445 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/12445

NOGDP 6y ago

> It's shocking to me how far ahead MacOS is in terms of keyboard shortcuts compared to all other operating systems. You only think that because you're used to macos shortcuts. > There absolutely has been some people there who deeply care and think long and hard about how experts use their systems even if the actual main company doesn't care so much about that segment anymore. Do any macbooks have a numpad? Lack of a numpad is the opposite of 'thinking long and hard about how experts use their systems'. > Everything just makes sense logically and mnemonically like using shift to invert actions like cmd+z and cmd+shift+z rather than having ctrl+z and ctrl+y for undo/redo. ctrl+z/ctrl+shift+z, tab/shift+tab, etc, is how my fairly default linux system works. > Then add to this the ability to rebind any shortcuts in any app at an OS level. You can do this on pretty much any operating system. > were some way to actually achieve this level of coherence across the whole system on Linux. What level of coherence? All you said is you prefer macos default shortcuts...? If we're talking about support for customisation then macos is laughably far behind linux in every single respect. My own experience, being forced to work with macos for the last few years has been quite annoying. The UI is very buggy, the app bar auto-hide constantly breaks, windows randomly disappear, macos has it's own weird (coherent?) set of shortcuts different from every other operating system, there is an insane amount of popups and notifications, maximising/fullscreening a window creates a new workspace which complicates quickly switching between windows, etc. Ability to customize the system is okay... still far behind linux. I literally do not see a single benefit of macos over linux.

avasthe 6y ago
Some user communities come across as very vocal to me. It is generally Apple users, JavaScript/Rust/Ruby developers, Privacy enthusiasts.

baldfat 6y ago

I use Windows, Linux and Mac OS (Work requiered) Mac OS has the worst shortcuts in my opinion. Desktop short cut! How is there no Shortcut for seeing the Desktop? Legacy of Steve Jobs doing the opposite of Windows is also a killer. Mouse Scroll wheel is opposite, close open windows icon on left and not right, not using Control but use Command key. These are not due to any reason other then to make it difficult to work between Windows and Apple. Drives me CRAZY because I have to use Apple and Windows.

jseliger 6y ago
* How is there no Shortcut for seeing the Desktop* F11 for expose?
Cockbrand 6y ago
⌘F3 shows the desktop. You can have a button for this on the Touch Bar. The Mac has been released in 1984 with the close icon on the left side of the window's title bar, and keyboard shortcuts using the command key located directly to the left (later also to the right) of the space bar. Windows has been released over a year later in 1985 with its own paradigm for these. So it seems like in fact, Windows has been designed to do things differently from the Mac, not the other way around.
- cesarb 6y ago
  > The Mac has been released in 1984 with the close icon on the left side of the window's title bar [...] So it seems like in fact, Windows has been designed to do things differently from the Mac The Windows which was released on that era also had the close function on the left side of the windows's title bar. The right side had only the minimize/maximize buttons. Moving the close function to the right side of the title bar came much later. > and keyboard shortcuts using the command key located directly to the left (later also to the right) of the space bar. Windows had to work with the PC keyboards of that era, which did not have that key. Much later, Microsoft gained enough influence to mandate adding a couple of extra keys to the keyboard (the "Windows" and "Menu" keys), but by then, the shortcuts had already become established (not to mention that many people still had old keyboards without these keys).

alwillis 6y ago

>It's a little frustrating because I'm trying to move my computing away from Apple because I'm no longer convinced they care about Macs in the long term… They just committed to transition the Mac platform to arguably the most performant (per watt) architecture available and just released the public beta Big Sur. If they didn't care about the Mac long term, why on Earth would they go through the trouble of making this transition? The Mac just set a June quarter record of $7.1 billion in revenue, up 22% from last year. These numbers give Apple a lot to care about: https://www.apple.com/investor/earnings-call/ https://www.apple.com/investor/earnings-call/

avasthe 6y ago

I couldn't care less how apple microoptimizes keyboard interaction. Now that shortcuts are mostly uniform across Windows and Linux, better they would be same on Macs too.

sbuk 6y ago
So break 37 years of consistency because Microsoft decided to basically replicate it (9 years after the fact, btw) using a key-chord that was already in use for SIGINT and that Gnome and KDE copied, shortsightedly given their target base OS?