4 ms·

Surely there must be a solution to this problem which involves neither privatization of massive amounts of personal data nor vicarious baptism.

ksenzee 6y ago
The vicarious baptism is going to happen regardless.
- hinkley 6y ago
  You will 1) be dead, so probably not care, and 2) in the unlikely event that you do still care, they believe that you have the opportunity to opt out.
  - function_seven 6y ago
    Yup. I very much want the Mormons to posthumously baptize me! I mean, it will probably do absolutely nothing. But, if it does have an effect, I will be eternally (literally) grateful for their help in the afterlife.
    - pottertheotter 6y ago
      I got your back. I'll be on the lookout for function_seven and take care of it for you!
    - thaumasiotes 6y ago
      > I mean, it will probably do absolutely nothing. But, if it does have an effect, I will be eternally (literally) grateful for their help in the afterlife. This is Pascal's Fallacious Wager, the idea that (as you've instantiated it here) Mormonism is the only religion that might potentially be correct. Either the Mormons are right, or everyone is wrong. But if you believe the Mormons might be right, you have no way to exclude the possibility that the Mormons are wrong, but somebody else is right. In which case the baptism might cause you eternal harm.
      - function_seven 6y ago
        This is close, but not really Pascal's Wager. For one, I do not currently practice any religion. But if I did, I'd have to pick one exclusively, to the detriment of the others. So of course his wager is a weak argument. But with posthumous baptism, it is someone else doing the thing. And multiple different religions can all claim me as their own. There can be overlap, maybe. (Or maybe not, who knows? We're in angels on the head of a pin territory here) So, if the Mormons baptizing me causes me eternal harm, then both of the following would be true: 1. They do have supernatural powers after all. (i.e. Mormon rituals have an effect on souls, deities, etc.) 2. But their belief system is wrong. I guess one can construct a system where both #1 and #2 hold, but I don't see it as being nearly as likely as either one in isolation.
        curiousgeorgio 6y ago
        You forgot #3: if posthumous baptism actually caused harm, it would mean that whichever belief system is "right" punishes people for choices outside their own control (i.e., the actions of others). Even if that's in the realm of possibility, it sounds pretty unreasonable in the context of deciding one's eternal fate.
        michaelmrose 6y ago
        Wouldn't it be as unlikely that a deity would reward you for the deeds of others?
        hinkley 6y ago
        Oh this is a rabbit hole I don't think we want to climb down. I know I invited 'unlikely' in but let's not make it too welcome or we'll be here all week, or until dang tells us to knock it off.
        ensignavenger 6y ago
        Mormonism's belief is not that you will be rewarded because some one posthumously baptized you, but because you accepted that baptism in the after-life. All are rewarded according to their own decisions/desires. Edit: Well actually, Mormonism is a Christian faith that teaches that salvation comes in and through Jesus Christ, so it really isn't your actions or their actions- but the actions of Jesus Christ- taken on your behalf, that leads to salvation- if you accept it. But it isn't so much a reward as it is an act of mercy.
  - ksenzee 6y ago
    Well - not me personally. I'm already in the system. (The one way to be sure Mormons won't have you baptized after your death: join up beforehand!) I didn't mean to imply that proxy baptism is a bad thing. I just meant it's going to happen regardless of any other data-extraction schemes any other organizations come up with.
plumeria 6y ago
I think this is an application where Google could help. Google Ancestry. Archive digitalization like Google Books plus genealogy tree generation (it could build diverging trees and people could help to fix them like in Google Maps)

ksenzee 6y ago

The vicarious baptism is going to happen regardless.

hinkley 6y ago
You will 1) be dead, so probably not care, and 2) in the unlikely event that you do still care, they believe that you have the opportunity to opt out.
- function_seven 6y ago
  Yup. I very much want the Mormons to posthumously baptize me! I mean, it will probably do absolutely nothing. But, if it does have an effect, I will be eternally (literally) grateful for their help in the afterlife.
  - pottertheotter 6y ago
    I got your back. I'll be on the lookout for function_seven and take care of it for you!
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    > I mean, it will probably do absolutely nothing. But, if it does have an effect, I will be eternally (literally) grateful for their help in the afterlife. This is Pascal's Fallacious Wager, the idea that (as you've instantiated it here) Mormonism is the only religion that might potentially be correct. Either the Mormons are right, or everyone is wrong. But if you believe the Mormons might be right, you have no way to exclude the possibility that the Mormons are wrong, but somebody else is right. In which case the baptism might cause you eternal harm.
    - function_seven 6y ago
      This is close, but not really Pascal's Wager. For one, I do not currently practice any religion. But if I did, I'd have to pick one exclusively, to the detriment of the others. So of course his wager is a weak argument. But with posthumous baptism, it is someone else doing the thing. And multiple different religions can all claim me as their own. There can be overlap, maybe. (Or maybe not, who knows? We're in angels on the head of a pin territory here) So, if the Mormons baptizing me causes me eternal harm, then both of the following would be true: 1. They do have supernatural powers after all. (i.e. Mormon rituals have an effect on souls, deities, etc.) 2. But their belief system is wrong. I guess one can construct a system where both #1 and #2 hold, but I don't see it as being nearly as likely as either one in isolation.
      - curiousgeorgio 6y ago
        You forgot #3: if posthumous baptism actually caused harm, it would mean that whichever belief system is "right" punishes people for choices outside their own control (i.e., the actions of others). Even if that's in the realm of possibility, it sounds pretty unreasonable in the context of deciding one's eternal fate.
        michaelmrose 6y ago
        Wouldn't it be as unlikely that a deity would reward you for the deeds of others?
        hinkley 6y ago
        Oh this is a rabbit hole I don't think we want to climb down. I know I invited 'unlikely' in but let's not make it too welcome or we'll be here all week, or until dang tells us to knock it off.
        ensignavenger 6y ago
        Mormonism's belief is not that you will be rewarded because some one posthumously baptized you, but because you accepted that baptism in the after-life. All are rewarded according to their own decisions/desires. Edit: Well actually, Mormonism is a Christian faith that teaches that salvation comes in and through Jesus Christ, so it really isn't your actions or their actions- but the actions of Jesus Christ- taken on your behalf, that leads to salvation- if you accept it. But it isn't so much a reward as it is an act of mercy.
- ksenzee 6y ago
  Well - not me personally. I'm already in the system. (The one way to be sure Mormons won't have you baptized after your death: join up beforehand!) I didn't mean to imply that proxy baptism is a bad thing. I just meant it's going to happen regardless of any other data-extraction schemes any other organizations come up with.

plumeria 6y ago

I think this is an application where Google could help. Google Ancestry. Archive digitalization like Google Books plus genealogy tree generation (it could build diverging trees and people could help to fix them like in Google Maps)