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People love to hate (which seems justified on the surface) on Apple's high prices, but the unparalleled years of support makes it worth it for me. Especially fo

People love to hate (which seems justified on the surface) on Apple's high prices, but the unparalleled years of support makes it worth it for me. Especially for phones like the SE.

tw04 6y ago
As someone who has bounced back and forth between iPhone and Android over the years: my hate hasn't seemed to have been fixed over the years. Sure Apple will push updates for 5 years, but after about 3 years somehow the latest update makes the phone so slow as to be unusable. It's happened to me with every iPhone I've owned (3G, 6, and I guess we'll see on the latest).
- skellera 6y ago
  The newest phones are so overpowered for their actual use. They should last years. The only thing will be switching out batteries from time to time.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- jonathanlydall 6y ago
  I'm using iPhone 6S with latest iOS and no issues with performance. Although I did replace the battery last year for about 800ZAR (~$45) from a certified Apple repairs company.
- FreakyT 6y ago
  I've heard that was the case for some of the older devices, but they're really gotten better at it. I'm currently using an OG iPhone SE (a 4 year old phone) and I'm running iOS 14 beta and it runs great.
- alyandon 6y ago
  If it helps ease your concerns any - my current work issued phone is the lowest end iPhone 6S model and it is still running fine to this day on latest iOS. Granted, the 6S is a pretty significant spec bump up from the iPhone 6. The performance of my personal Pixel 2 on the other hand has not held up nearly as well by comparison and my next personal phone will likely be an iPhone even though I'm not a great fan of Apple.
  - BiggsHoson 6y ago
    My Pixel 2 XL has been humming along nicely, even on Android 10. Maybe I should worry how Android 11 will run on it--it will be the last update planned for this phone, and hence an opportunity for Google to make me unsatisfied with my old phone--but as it stands now I have no performance complaints whatsoever.
    - daok 6y ago
      My Pixel 2 XL had heating issue. The battery couldn't last much at the end. I couldn't use it as GPS anymore (plugged or not) because it was over heating. I have a Pixel 4... still get warning about heat when using it as GPS once in a while ( I have the phone in the A/C vents so it has no reason to get that warm).
      - ufmace 6y ago
        Similar complaint - I have a Pixel 2. Everything still works great, except for the battery, which lasts around a third as long as when it was new. I checked out replacing it, appears to be highly difficult to not damage the screen when replacing. Sigh. I'm ordering a Pixel 4a to replace it. It's kind of a drag that once they finally got the fundamental hardware and OS good enough to really last for a few years, they also made it nearly impossible to do what should be simple maintenance.
      - mrguyorama 6y ago
        Contrary to your view, I have a Pixel 2 XL and the battery is still stupendous. My only disappointment is how long it takes to charge on an old style, 500ma-1amp charger. Did you leave in plugged into the AC adapter overnight? anecdotally that killed my previous phones and there's also (anecdotal?) evidence that it isn't great for it. Have you checked what apps are eating all the battery? On older phones, newer versions of certain apps seemed to turn them into pocket warmers, getting stuck in a tight CPU loop and efficiently turning 3000mAh into heat at about 5 watts
- 52-6F-62 6y ago
  I'm on an iPhone 8 Plus which is a 3-year old device and I've had 0 performance or battery issues. I plan on keeping this one as long as possible.
  - jl6 6y ago
    Same here. I purchased it expecting it to last me 5 years, and so far that plan looks sound. I’ve followed the release of subsequent phones in the review media, and I don’t feel like there have been any compelling new features since that would tempt me to upgrade sooner.
- 0x202020 6y ago
  I use a first generation iPhone SE every day in conjunction with my regular iPhone 11 Pro Max and I definitely wouldn’t call it unusable. The main pain point I have with it is loading a heavy webpage if I don’t have ad blocking on
- dunnevens 6y ago
  I'm still running an 6s plus. My luck might run out with iOS 14, but so far so good. It was expensive when new, but I've gotten 5 years out of it. Might get 6 if the update doesn't hurt it. Still runs quickly. Screen is still scratch free. Despite it's high initial price, it's been a bargain overall.
  - andredz 6y ago
    I still have the iPhone 6. Since it became "obsolete" I stopped keeping tracking of iOS updates but I feel like it hasn't hurt much. I can't really install many apps anyway since it only has about 11 GB of effective space (the "System " uses 6.87 GB)
- jventura 6y ago
  I’m replying to you on a iPhone 5S (2013 model) running iOS 12 (the last supported version), and it runs perfectly fine for me.. Maybe it’s slow as hell comparing to the latest model, but it allows me to do everything I need it to do for me..
- supernova87a 6y ago
  You should get your battery replaced. That is generally the cause of performance slowdown -- see the iphone battery complaints thread. But it is known, and an easy fix.
maxaht 6y ago
This seems like an odd thing to say about a company that was caught purposefully slowing down older models
- thedanbob 6y ago
  As I understand it, Apple slowed down certain models to deal with the problem of batteries losing capacity over time. Which actually could give those phones a longer usable life (slower is better than shutting off completely). The problem was they didn't tell people they were doing it.
  - mrguyorama 6y ago
    Also usable here should be in pretty big quotes. The phone didn't die and turn off, but it didn't get much done either. It could possibly still make phone calls
    - valuearb 6y ago
      No, the phone was still usable, just slower. If Apple didn’t throttle, the phone would restart every time it’s power requirements outstripped the batteries declining capacity. I think it’s pretty clear which use case is better.
- supernova87a 6y ago
  That has been explained a bunch of times: Apple gives performance beyond what you would expect for a similar phone, in terms of battery life and responsiveness. Then, as you burn through your battery's age beyond what even other phone manufacturers would warrant, the OS slows down the CPU to let you continue using it. So it's actually giving you more than you would've gotten otherwise. But all the complaints are that iPhone sucks, I guess.
  - chillwaves 6y ago
    Be transparent.
GuB-42 6y ago
Early Android devices had removable batteries and most of the popular ones had custom ROMs that extended support for way beyond OEM updates. The irony is that early Android phones were built to last, but quickly got obsoleted by more recent models. Now, progress is much slower, but the thing that kept devices alive (removable batteries and community ROMs) are dying. Real obsolescence is replaced by planned obsolescence.
- gruez 6y ago
  > Early Android devices had removable batteries and most of the popular ones had custom ROMs that extended support for way beyond OEM updates. how long is "way beyond OEM updates"? one year? two years? three years? five years? The main problem is that third party roms can only update so much. Without OEM support, you're not going to be getting updates for the proprietary bits of your phone. This includes blobs, baseband, and even the kernel (technically it's open source, but all android phones run off a customized kernel that's specific to that SoC. When that SOC gets EOLed, the updates stop coming).
- jneplokh 6y ago
  Even if there are custom ROMs and the like, as gruez said, you will not be receiving updates for other critical parts of the phone. Regardless, those are only community supported, and not from the vendor. I have far less trust in a random community. Plus, their EOL could be completely unexpected. I do not want my phone to be reliant on community updates, personally.
mnm1 6y ago
Yeah, but I can buy 5 to 6 android phones for the price of Apple's high end phones. So while this makes sense for their cheapest product, even that is twice the price. So the comparison is between 2 to 5 generations of android phones and one generation of an apple phone.
- esperent 6y ago
  And who cares about the stupid environment, am I right?
  - gpm 6y ago
    Typically price is a pretty good indicator of the amount of resources that went into making something. I'd expect the environmental cost of an iphone to be a similar multiple of the environmental cost of an android.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      Cheaper devices also tend to be less environmentally-friendly.
  - mnm1 6y ago
    You are right. Few do. If people cared about the environment that much, they would have lobbied for laws against planned obsolescence. Me buying 5 phones or even 500 won't make a difference to the environment. Laws forcing phone makers to support their phones for a minimum of x years might. Clearly, our society is not interested in that. Why should I then go out of my way to inconvenience myself to do something that will make zero difference? No reason to at all.
  - blacksmith_tb 6y ago
    Well, a smartphone is fairly bad for its small size, but we're talking less than 100kg of CO2[1][2] to make and operate for its lifetime. But driving a car for a year in the US produces 4600kg[3]... 1: https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-iphone-x-environmental-report/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-iphone-x-environmental-repor... 2: https://sustainability.google/reports https://sustainability.google/reports 3: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/greenhouse-gas-emissions-typical-passenger-vehicle https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/greenhouse-gas-emissions-t...
fmakunbound 6y ago
I have an iPhone 6S Plus. Apparently it came out in 2015. The ORIGINAL Pixel was announced in 2016. I'm still getting support for the 6S Plus - I actually have iOS14 beta running on it rather pleasantly. It's plenty fast, too. Based on support period, one can easily justify the most costly iPhone over the seemingly temporarily supported Google/Samsung etc. flagship.
- JetSpiegel 6y ago
  https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/sailfish https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/sailfish Non-professional developers support Android Q on the original Pixel, but Google is too resource-starved, apparently.
- mrguyorama 6y ago
  If only they put even remotely good batteries in their phones. The battery they generally spec out seems to only handle one day of mild use (including accounting for Apple's very efficient processors), and VERY quickly loses capacity and other specs. I'm sad they don't provide an option for if you like having 3500mAh or more. Unfortunately I still wouldn't be happy with an iPhone as I'm just not a fan of iOS
  - Tepix 6y ago
    The batteries are usually decent for the first two years. After two years, getting a battery replacement from a 3rd party has gotten cheaper and can be worthwhile (right now it's 35€ for an iPhone 6S and 45€ for an iPhone X)
    - theodric 6y ago
      Comment was referencing multi-day usage, not overall lifetime
  - entropea 6y ago
    I tend to use my phone more as a computer with a lot of SSH, unzip/unrar, downloading audio files, editing audio files, sending videos, full file manager access, and I want to move to iOS because I am absolutely not liking Google at all, and have tried, but it's just not there yet. I see improvements being made, but things like not being able to hold open an SSH session without subscriptions or expensive applications is a big issue for me. iPhones also can't play .webm's and other media files. I have a 6S plus I keep trying, but its personally not there yet. Also not a fan of face unlock and wish they'd implement a fingerprint into the screen. I usually block out the front camera and any sensors that I don't use.
ensignavenger 6y ago
How long is Apple's guaranteed support?
- supernova87a 6y ago
  They don't have a "guaranteed support" lifetime, because instead they just have a track record of supporting hardware well beyond the (2-3 sigma) x (average) person keeping their hardware. When you see "guaranteed support" by a manufacturer, you can be sure that it actually means "guaranteed end of support" timeline. Which Google follows exactly.
  - ensignavenger 6y ago
    Their track record seems to be more recent- earlier iPhone's were not supported nearly as long, from what I have seen. While Google may end support as soon as they can, not all manufacturers do.
    - geodel 6y ago
      Other vendors are far worse. After using iphone 5s for 4+ years, My kid now watches youtube or play game etc on that phone. Android phones after 2-3 years basically turn to crap. It could be OS/ battery/plastic shell/screen that fail for sure.
    - eisa01 6y ago
      The original iPhone had 3 years support, same as the Pixel 4 :)
    - outworlder 6y ago
      > Their track record seems to be more recent- earlier iPhone's were not supported nearly as long, from what I have seen. This is sort of true. It is true that Apple dropped support for older devices much faster in the past. But it is also true that the older devices were way underpowered. As an example: when Apple introduced home screen backgrounds on the iPod Touch, they released the same software upgrade for all iPods. However, since the older generation didn't have enough compute power (most likely GPU), they disabled the feature for older generations. I thought they were trying to force people to upgrade, but after a jailbreak and force enabling the feature, I realized that it was not the case. It was not smooth, so this is why they disabled it. Same goes for, say, iPads. The first iPad quickly got obsoleted, but it was also very underpowered compared to subsequent devices. They will not hesitate to drop hardware if it turns out to be insufficient, but they are just as likely to disable a feature if there is insufficient hardware support and allow the OS upgrade anyway.
class4behavior 6y ago
This thread talks about Apple as if they're the only company offering support and warranties. Whether it's their products or services, Apple's success is based on a smooth experience and they pursue to control the entire ecosystem. So for them to offer long-lasting support is neither surprising nor significant. The Android phone market is distributed. You can get almost anything there you can get from Apple, in particular wherever the competition regulators had done their work. The stuff Google itself is participating in is a different matter. Honestly, with respect to consumer products and UX Google is generally a failure. It's like Google is full of engineers and analysts but lacks talent in every other profession. Even Microsoft which has been so often a late-comer and the death for so many brands seems to be better at it.

People love to hate (which seems justified on the surface) on Apple's high prices, but the unparalleled years of support makes it worth it for me. Especially for phones like the SE.

tw04 6y ago

As someone who has bounced back and forth between iPhone and Android over the years: my hate hasn't seemed to have been fixed over the years. Sure Apple will push updates for 5 years, but after about 3 years somehow the latest update makes the phone so slow as to be unusable. It's happened to me with every iPhone I've owned (3G, 6, and I guess we'll see on the latest).

skellera 6y ago
The newest phones are so overpowered for their actual use. They should last years. The only thing will be switching out batteries from time to time.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
jonathanlydall 6y ago
I'm using iPhone 6S with latest iOS and no issues with performance. Although I did replace the battery last year for about 800ZAR (~$45) from a certified Apple repairs company.
FreakyT 6y ago
I've heard that was the case for some of the older devices, but they're really gotten better at it. I'm currently using an OG iPhone SE (a 4 year old phone) and I'm running iOS 14 beta and it runs great.
alyandon 6y ago
If it helps ease your concerns any - my current work issued phone is the lowest end iPhone 6S model and it is still running fine to this day on latest iOS. Granted, the 6S is a pretty significant spec bump up from the iPhone 6. The performance of my personal Pixel 2 on the other hand has not held up nearly as well by comparison and my next personal phone will likely be an iPhone even though I'm not a great fan of Apple.
- BiggsHoson 6y ago
  My Pixel 2 XL has been humming along nicely, even on Android 10. Maybe I should worry how Android 11 will run on it--it will be the last update planned for this phone, and hence an opportunity for Google to make me unsatisfied with my old phone--but as it stands now I have no performance complaints whatsoever.
  - daok 6y ago
    My Pixel 2 XL had heating issue. The battery couldn't last much at the end. I couldn't use it as GPS anymore (plugged or not) because it was over heating. I have a Pixel 4... still get warning about heat when using it as GPS once in a while ( I have the phone in the A/C vents so it has no reason to get that warm).
    - ufmace 6y ago
      Similar complaint - I have a Pixel 2. Everything still works great, except for the battery, which lasts around a third as long as when it was new. I checked out replacing it, appears to be highly difficult to not damage the screen when replacing. Sigh. I'm ordering a Pixel 4a to replace it. It's kind of a drag that once they finally got the fundamental hardware and OS good enough to really last for a few years, they also made it nearly impossible to do what should be simple maintenance.
    - mrguyorama 6y ago
      Contrary to your view, I have a Pixel 2 XL and the battery is still stupendous. My only disappointment is how long it takes to charge on an old style, 500ma-1amp charger. Did you leave in plugged into the AC adapter overnight? anecdotally that killed my previous phones and there's also (anecdotal?) evidence that it isn't great for it. Have you checked what apps are eating all the battery? On older phones, newer versions of certain apps seemed to turn them into pocket warmers, getting stuck in a tight CPU loop and efficiently turning 3000mAh into heat at about 5 watts
52-6F-62 6y ago
I'm on an iPhone 8 Plus which is a 3-year old device and I've had 0 performance or battery issues. I plan on keeping this one as long as possible.
- jl6 6y ago
  Same here. I purchased it expecting it to last me 5 years, and so far that plan looks sound. I’ve followed the release of subsequent phones in the review media, and I don’t feel like there have been any compelling new features since that would tempt me to upgrade sooner.
0x202020 6y ago
I use a first generation iPhone SE every day in conjunction with my regular iPhone 11 Pro Max and I definitely wouldn’t call it unusable. The main pain point I have with it is loading a heavy webpage if I don’t have ad blocking on
dunnevens 6y ago
I'm still running an 6s plus. My luck might run out with iOS 14, but so far so good. It was expensive when new, but I've gotten 5 years out of it. Might get 6 if the update doesn't hurt it. Still runs quickly. Screen is still scratch free. Despite it's high initial price, it's been a bargain overall.
- andredz 6y ago
  I still have the iPhone 6. Since it became "obsolete" I stopped keeping tracking of iOS updates but I feel like it hasn't hurt much. I can't really install many apps anyway since it only has about 11 GB of effective space (the "System " uses 6.87 GB)
jventura 6y ago
I’m replying to you on a iPhone 5S (2013 model) running iOS 12 (the last supported version), and it runs perfectly fine for me.. Maybe it’s slow as hell comparing to the latest model, but it allows me to do everything I need it to do for me..
supernova87a 6y ago
You should get your battery replaced. That is generally the cause of performance slowdown -- see the iphone battery complaints thread. But it is known, and an easy fix.

maxaht 6y ago

This seems like an odd thing to say about a company that was caught purposefully slowing down older models

thedanbob 6y ago
As I understand it, Apple slowed down certain models to deal with the problem of batteries losing capacity over time. Which actually could give those phones a longer usable life (slower is better than shutting off completely). The problem was they didn't tell people they were doing it.
- mrguyorama 6y ago
  Also usable here should be in pretty big quotes. The phone didn't die and turn off, but it didn't get much done either. It could possibly still make phone calls
  - valuearb 6y ago
    No, the phone was still usable, just slower. If Apple didn’t throttle, the phone would restart every time it’s power requirements outstripped the batteries declining capacity. I think it’s pretty clear which use case is better.
supernova87a 6y ago
That has been explained a bunch of times: Apple gives performance beyond what you would expect for a similar phone, in terms of battery life and responsiveness. Then, as you burn through your battery's age beyond what even other phone manufacturers would warrant, the OS slows down the CPU to let you continue using it. So it's actually giving you more than you would've gotten otherwise. But all the complaints are that iPhone sucks, I guess.
- chillwaves 6y ago
  Be transparent.

GuB-42 6y ago

Early Android devices had removable batteries and most of the popular ones had custom ROMs that extended support for way beyond OEM updates. The irony is that early Android phones were built to last, but quickly got obsoleted by more recent models. Now, progress is much slower, but the thing that kept devices alive (removable batteries and community ROMs) are dying. Real obsolescence is replaced by planned obsolescence.

gruez 6y ago
> Early Android devices had removable batteries and most of the popular ones had custom ROMs that extended support for way beyond OEM updates. how long is "way beyond OEM updates"? one year? two years? three years? five years? The main problem is that third party roms can only update so much. Without OEM support, you're not going to be getting updates for the proprietary bits of your phone. This includes blobs, baseband, and even the kernel (technically it's open source, but all android phones run off a customized kernel that's specific to that SoC. When that SOC gets EOLed, the updates stop coming).
jneplokh 6y ago
Even if there are custom ROMs and the like, as gruez said, you will not be receiving updates for other critical parts of the phone. Regardless, those are only community supported, and not from the vendor. I have far less trust in a random community. Plus, their EOL could be completely unexpected. I do not want my phone to be reliant on community updates, personally.

mnm1 6y ago

Yeah, but I can buy 5 to 6 android phones for the price of Apple's high end phones. So while this makes sense for their cheapest product, even that is twice the price. So the comparison is between 2 to 5 generations of android phones and one generation of an apple phone.

esperent 6y ago
And who cares about the stupid environment, am I right?
- gpm 6y ago
  Typically price is a pretty good indicator of the amount of resources that went into making something. I'd expect the environmental cost of an iphone to be a similar multiple of the environmental cost of an android.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Cheaper devices also tend to be less environmentally-friendly.
- mnm1 6y ago
  You are right. Few do. If people cared about the environment that much, they would have lobbied for laws against planned obsolescence. Me buying 5 phones or even 500 won't make a difference to the environment. Laws forcing phone makers to support their phones for a minimum of x years might. Clearly, our society is not interested in that. Why should I then go out of my way to inconvenience myself to do something that will make zero difference? No reason to at all.
- blacksmith_tb 6y ago
  Well, a smartphone is fairly bad for its small size, but we're talking less than 100kg of CO2[1][2] to make and operate for its lifetime. But driving a car for a year in the US produces 4600kg[3]... 1: https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-iphone-x-environmental-report/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-iphone-x-environmental-repor... 2: https://sustainability.google/reports https://sustainability.google/reports 3: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/greenhouse-gas-emissions-typical-passenger-vehicle https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/greenhouse-gas-emissions-t...

fmakunbound 6y ago

I have an iPhone 6S Plus. Apparently it came out in 2015. The ORIGINAL Pixel was announced in 2016. I'm still getting support for the 6S Plus - I actually have iOS14 beta running on it rather pleasantly. It's plenty fast, too. Based on support period, one can easily justify the most costly iPhone over the seemingly temporarily supported Google/Samsung etc. flagship.

JetSpiegel 6y ago
https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/sailfish https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/sailfish Non-professional developers support Android Q on the original Pixel, but Google is too resource-starved, apparently.
mrguyorama 6y ago
If only they put even remotely good batteries in their phones. The battery they generally spec out seems to only handle one day of mild use (including accounting for Apple's very efficient processors), and VERY quickly loses capacity and other specs. I'm sad they don't provide an option for if you like having 3500mAh or more. Unfortunately I still wouldn't be happy with an iPhone as I'm just not a fan of iOS
- Tepix 6y ago
  The batteries are usually decent for the first two years. After two years, getting a battery replacement from a 3rd party has gotten cheaper and can be worthwhile (right now it's 35€ for an iPhone 6S and 45€ for an iPhone X)
  - theodric 6y ago
    Comment was referencing multi-day usage, not overall lifetime
- entropea 6y ago
  I tend to use my phone more as a computer with a lot of SSH, unzip/unrar, downloading audio files, editing audio files, sending videos, full file manager access, and I want to move to iOS because I am absolutely not liking Google at all, and have tried, but it's just not there yet. I see improvements being made, but things like not being able to hold open an SSH session without subscriptions or expensive applications is a big issue for me. iPhones also can't play .webm's and other media files. I have a 6S plus I keep trying, but its personally not there yet. Also not a fan of face unlock and wish they'd implement a fingerprint into the screen. I usually block out the front camera and any sensors that I don't use.

ensignavenger 6y ago

How long is Apple's guaranteed support?

supernova87a 6y ago
They don't have a "guaranteed support" lifetime, because instead they just have a track record of supporting hardware well beyond the (2-3 sigma) x (average) person keeping their hardware. When you see "guaranteed support" by a manufacturer, you can be sure that it actually means "guaranteed end of support" timeline. Which Google follows exactly.
- ensignavenger 6y ago
  Their track record seems to be more recent- earlier iPhone's were not supported nearly as long, from what I have seen. While Google may end support as soon as they can, not all manufacturers do.
  - geodel 6y ago
    Other vendors are far worse. After using iphone 5s for 4+ years, My kid now watches youtube or play game etc on that phone. Android phones after 2-3 years basically turn to crap. It could be OS/ battery/plastic shell/screen that fail for sure.
  - eisa01 6y ago
    The original iPhone had 3 years support, same as the Pixel 4 :)
  - outworlder 6y ago
    > Their track record seems to be more recent- earlier iPhone's were not supported nearly as long, from what I have seen. This is sort of true. It is true that Apple dropped support for older devices much faster in the past. But it is also true that the older devices were way underpowered. As an example: when Apple introduced home screen backgrounds on the iPod Touch, they released the same software upgrade for all iPods. However, since the older generation didn't have enough compute power (most likely GPU), they disabled the feature for older generations. I thought they were trying to force people to upgrade, but after a jailbreak and force enabling the feature, I realized that it was not the case. It was not smooth, so this is why they disabled it. Same goes for, say, iPads. The first iPad quickly got obsoleted, but it was also very underpowered compared to subsequent devices. They will not hesitate to drop hardware if it turns out to be insufficient, but they are just as likely to disable a feature if there is insufficient hardware support and allow the OS upgrade anyway.

class4behavior 6y ago

This thread talks about Apple as if they're the only company offering support and warranties. Whether it's their products or services, Apple's success is based on a smooth experience and they pursue to control the entire ecosystem. So for them to offer long-lasting support is neither surprising nor significant. The Android phone market is distributed. You can get almost anything there you can get from Apple, in particular wherever the competition regulators had done their work. The stuff Google itself is participating in is a different matter. Honestly, with respect to consumer products and UX Google is generally a failure. It's like Google is full of engineers and analysts but lacks talent in every other profession. Even Microsoft which has been so often a late-comer and the death for so many brands seems to be better at it.