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This issue is somewhat close to my heart. My grandmother committed suicide. My mother has tried to commit suicide on several occasions, and I have suffered fro

This issue is somewhat close to my heart. My grandmother committed suicide. My mother has tried to commit suicide on several occasions, and I have suffered from depression for most of my life. I'm happy to say that ketamine infusion therapy was a breakthrough for me, after decades of making no progress with anti-depressants, I am now virtually depression-free and have been so for years. I highly recommend it to anyone who suffers from treatment-resistant depression. That said... > Every suicide is a tragedy. Statements like that on suicide prevention websites have always bothered me because I find them disingenuous, and for me personally have always been counter-productive. I think it's obvious that not all suicides are tragedies. I think that as uncomfortable as it makes us, for many people suicide is the most responsible decision a person can make. Not everybody has loved ones, and not everybody is a great person. My best friend's father was incredibly abusive and incredibly miserable, despite spending his whole life in various forms of treatment. His death marked a significant improvement in my friend's wellness. I suppose this man could have just left his family but...I wouldn't say his suicide is a tragedy. He's no longer suffering. A lot of the arguments I see against suicide is that it hurts the people around you. Which is true, and this effect is difficult to understate. I'm still affected by the suicide of my grandmother, whom I never even met. But that's not a reason to live, that's just a reason not to die. I'm guessing that access to quality healthcare is one of the best ways to prevent suicide. (Luckily I could afford my ketamine injections and subsequent prescriptions.) I think that's obvious to everyone though. Strange in my country how access is still such an issue...

automatoney 6y ago
Maybe the argument that suicide hurts the people around the person who killed themself can be helpful by reminding people that there's others who care about them who would want to help if they could. Either way, it seems to be enough for some people, and I think if it helps people through a crisis then it's an argument worth repeating.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  Wanting to help and being able to are very different things though.
- searchableguy 6y ago
  It might work in opposite ways. Introducing more obligations on those who want to get rid of existing ones isn't a good idea to help them get better. When you can't materially do something for the person, the best is to listen and offer some insight with the disclaimer - that's the best you can do and would have done more if it was possible. Many people come claiming to help but they make the issue political or about them. A person is likely already aware of generic advice because any query showing suicidal intent on Google will show those helplines and results.
Natsu 6y ago
You're right that ketamine seems like a magic switch for at least some people, but please be careful if you have any history of psychosis. I almost ended up as the murdered half of a murder-suicide due to that. Which is damnable because I've never seen any other treatment have the same effect as esketamine. I really hope they find some way to solve that, maybe they also need to administer anti-psychotics in that case, I truly don't know. Because the treatment itself is just about as close to turning off depression as anything I've ever seen. Though I understand it may not be that way for everyone, for some, it really helps. See also: https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/03/11/ketamine-now-by-prescription/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/03/11/ketamine-now-by-prescr...
badrabbit 6y ago
You're wrong, at what point would you be responsible to take your own life? By what authority? Did you bring yourself into the world? It's one thing to say you have a right to take your life, but a responsibility? To who whom is the responsibility owed? If you have no one to care for you then you owe no responsibility to anyone, it you do, all the same you owe the people that care about you a chance to share a life with them, to share tomorrow with you. Now a right, that's a different subject, I don't condone euthnasia but I can't personally criticize a person wanting to leave the world because they can't endure today's pain. One thing I will say about this subject I have thought about a lot. No one wants to die,absolutley no one. We may want the pain to be over, the boredom to end,the despair to dissipate or some other end we think is achieved by suicide but no one wants to say goodbye to their own self. If all things are possible to everyone, no one would choose death over life.
- steego 6y ago
  You are absolutely wrong about nobody wanting to die and it has nothing to do with the pain to be over, the boredom to end, or the despair to dissipate. You sound young or too invested in your own life to actually understand the real circumstances for why people would not want to live. You do realize that not everyone sees life as a gift, right? Some people imagine never being alive in the first place a greater gift. You mention that if all things are possible to everyone, no one would choose death over life. Again, you’re wrong. You can’t fathom why someone would opt to no longer exist if all things were possible, but I know people who would opt to chase everything from existence if they had the power. You just don’t understand it. I’m really amazed that you honestly think you can speak for everyone when it’s clear you’ve never given other peoples’ outlook anything more than a fleeting thought. Personally speaking, I’m happy with my life. If I reached my old age and someone gave me the option to live indefinitely or to stop, at some point I’m just going to want to stop. At some point, I’m going to want to cease to being.
  - badrabbit 6y ago
    I can confidently say you are wrong. Whatever your reasons are to escape this existense, if you can change existense itself you would rather do that instead of death. See, you yourself said it was escaping this existense or something else, you are escaping life not embracing death. It is hatred for life not love of death! I don't know if I would be consideree young but I am no stranger to the subject. > You do realize that not everyone sees life as a gift, right? Some people imagine never being alive in the first place a greater gift. Yes, I do. That's because of the life they know. Not existing to begin with sounds great because of your relative knowledge of what existing means.
a_t48 6y ago
Is there any chance you're in the Bay Area and would be willing to share which org you got ketamine therapy through? I have a friend in SF who's antidepressants have stopped working over the years - she's hoping to do ketamine therapy but can't find a legit organization to go through.
- pvarangot 6y ago
  I would start by contacting a psychiatric organization like MAPS, or personally reaching to it's board members or practices that are listed there. I don't know of any legal organization that will put you on ketamine therapy without having you as a patient from beforehand or having your psychiatrists recommend you to them for treatment. Is she seeing a psychiatrist? Antidepressants stop working all the time, she should be having this conversations with her psych or telling her psych that she's stopping treatment and finding someone else because it's not working. If she's on any other basic meds like sleeping pills or anxiety meds she should be able to get a prescription for them from a GP or any cheap synch in-network only by saying she's already taking them.
  - a_t48 6y ago
    She is, but it's Kaiser and they aren't well known for their mental health care. They did a trial in the past that worked, but apparently aren't doing it any more.
- lilboiluvr69 6y ago
  I am afraid I am nowhere close to the Bay Area.
friendlybus 6y ago
It's a tragedy your best friend's father was a walking ball of abuse and negativity. I get your argument and it's good, but the underlying issues behind suicides are no good either.
JimTheMan 6y ago
> Every suicide is a tragedy. People often have very reasonable reasons they want to kill themselves. Doesn't mean they should necessarily do it, but such statements are invalidating or unhelpful to the suicidal. I think ultimately people just want to be understood. It's also a little bit cultural isn't it. For instance Euthanasia is a form of suicide that can be entirely reasonable and made in the absence of mental illness.
- tapland 6y ago
  Even when we can reasonably understand it it's still a tragedy that we can't provide a better alternative. Wether that is working therapy, cures for other illnesses, medication that make life enjoyable or any other change to society. Viewing it as a tragedy isn't in itself invalidating, it can be a way of viewing the issue as a means to progress. But I do agree that just blurting it out and pasting it places is inconsiderate, and not acknowledging the current reality of people's situations don't make them better.
killswitched 6y ago
"My dad was abusive and killed himself and I'm happier now." If the child is better off with their dad killing themselves, that's a failure of society to protect the child who was being abused, or possibly the child has inherited some sociopathic tendencies. For most people, the suicide of a parent is traumatic, regardless of whether there was abuse.
- perl4ever 6y ago
  I think your assumption/implication that "was traumatic" is inconsistent with "happier now" is questionable.
  - killswitched 6y ago
    S/questionable assumption/incorrect assumption/ = how to speak to non techies Subtle cultural hint
    - perl4ever 6y ago
      It's aggravating when people tell me what I meant, when I chose my words with intent. I've never been a SWE or developer. Communicating with lawyers and PMs is what I mostly do.

automatoney 6y ago

Maybe the argument that suicide hurts the people around the person who killed themself can be helpful by reminding people that there's others who care about them who would want to help if they could. Either way, it seems to be enough for some people, and I think if it helps people through a crisis then it's an argument worth repeating.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
Wanting to help and being able to are very different things though.
searchableguy 6y ago
It might work in opposite ways. Introducing more obligations on those who want to get rid of existing ones isn't a good idea to help them get better. When you can't materially do something for the person, the best is to listen and offer some insight with the disclaimer - that's the best you can do and would have done more if it was possible. Many people come claiming to help but they make the issue political or about them. A person is likely already aware of generic advice because any query showing suicidal intent on Google will show those helplines and results.

Natsu 6y ago

You're right that ketamine seems like a magic switch for at least some people, but please be careful if you have any history of psychosis. I almost ended up as the murdered half of a murder-suicide due to that. Which is damnable because I've never seen any other treatment have the same effect as esketamine. I really hope they find some way to solve that, maybe they also need to administer anti-psychotics in that case, I truly don't know. Because the treatment itself is just about as close to turning off depression as anything I've ever seen. Though I understand it may not be that way for everyone, for some, it really helps. See also: https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/03/11/ketamine-now-by-prescription/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/03/11/ketamine-now-by-prescr...

badrabbit 6y ago

You're wrong, at what point would you be responsible to take your own life? By what authority? Did you bring yourself into the world? It's one thing to say you have a right to take your life, but a responsibility? To who whom is the responsibility owed? If you have no one to care for you then you owe no responsibility to anyone, it you do, all the same you owe the people that care about you a chance to share a life with them, to share tomorrow with you. Now a right, that's a different subject, I don't condone euthnasia but I can't personally criticize a person wanting to leave the world because they can't endure today's pain. One thing I will say about this subject I have thought about a lot. No one wants to die,absolutley no one. We may want the pain to be over, the boredom to end,the despair to dissipate or some other end we think is achieved by suicide but no one wants to say goodbye to their own self. If all things are possible to everyone, no one would choose death over life.

steego 6y ago
You are absolutely wrong about nobody wanting to die and it has nothing to do with the pain to be over, the boredom to end, or the despair to dissipate. You sound young or too invested in your own life to actually understand the real circumstances for why people would not want to live. You do realize that not everyone sees life as a gift, right? Some people imagine never being alive in the first place a greater gift. You mention that if all things are possible to everyone, no one would choose death over life. Again, you’re wrong. You can’t fathom why someone would opt to no longer exist if all things were possible, but I know people who would opt to chase everything from existence if they had the power. You just don’t understand it. I’m really amazed that you honestly think you can speak for everyone when it’s clear you’ve never given other peoples’ outlook anything more than a fleeting thought. Personally speaking, I’m happy with my life. If I reached my old age and someone gave me the option to live indefinitely or to stop, at some point I’m just going to want to stop. At some point, I’m going to want to cease to being.
- badrabbit 6y ago
  I can confidently say you are wrong. Whatever your reasons are to escape this existense, if you can change existense itself you would rather do that instead of death. See, you yourself said it was escaping this existense or something else, you are escaping life not embracing death. It is hatred for life not love of death! I don't know if I would be consideree young but I am no stranger to the subject. > You do realize that not everyone sees life as a gift, right? Some people imagine never being alive in the first place a greater gift. Yes, I do. That's because of the life they know. Not existing to begin with sounds great because of your relative knowledge of what existing means.

a_t48 6y ago

Is there any chance you're in the Bay Area and would be willing to share which org you got ketamine therapy through? I have a friend in SF who's antidepressants have stopped working over the years - she's hoping to do ketamine therapy but can't find a legit organization to go through.

pvarangot 6y ago
I would start by contacting a psychiatric organization like MAPS, or personally reaching to it's board members or practices that are listed there. I don't know of any legal organization that will put you on ketamine therapy without having you as a patient from beforehand or having your psychiatrists recommend you to them for treatment. Is she seeing a psychiatrist? Antidepressants stop working all the time, she should be having this conversations with her psych or telling her psych that she's stopping treatment and finding someone else because it's not working. If she's on any other basic meds like sleeping pills or anxiety meds she should be able to get a prescription for them from a GP or any cheap synch in-network only by saying she's already taking them.
- a_t48 6y ago
  She is, but it's Kaiser and they aren't well known for their mental health care. They did a trial in the past that worked, but apparently aren't doing it any more.
lilboiluvr69 6y ago
I am afraid I am nowhere close to the Bay Area.

friendlybus 6y ago

It's a tragedy your best friend's father was a walking ball of abuse and negativity. I get your argument and it's good, but the underlying issues behind suicides are no good either.

JimTheMan 6y ago

> Every suicide is a tragedy. People often have very reasonable reasons they want to kill themselves. Doesn't mean they should necessarily do it, but such statements are invalidating or unhelpful to the suicidal. I think ultimately people just want to be understood. It's also a little bit cultural isn't it. For instance Euthanasia is a form of suicide that can be entirely reasonable and made in the absence of mental illness.

tapland 6y ago
Even when we can reasonably understand it it's still a tragedy that we can't provide a better alternative. Wether that is working therapy, cures for other illnesses, medication that make life enjoyable or any other change to society. Viewing it as a tragedy isn't in itself invalidating, it can be a way of viewing the issue as a means to progress. But I do agree that just blurting it out and pasting it places is inconsiderate, and not acknowledging the current reality of people's situations don't make them better.

killswitched 6y ago

"My dad was abusive and killed himself and I'm happier now." If the child is better off with their dad killing themselves, that's a failure of society to protect the child who was being abused, or possibly the child has inherited some sociopathic tendencies. For most people, the suicide of a parent is traumatic, regardless of whether there was abuse.

perl4ever 6y ago
I think your assumption/implication that "was traumatic" is inconsistent with "happier now" is questionable.
- killswitched 6y ago
  S/questionable assumption/incorrect assumption/ = how to speak to non techies Subtle cultural hint
  - perl4ever 6y ago
    It's aggravating when people tell me what I meant, when I chose my words with intent. I've never been a SWE or developer. Communicating with lawyers and PMs is what I mostly do.