7 ms·

Cerebral Micro-Structural Changes in Covid-19 Patients

76 points by seesawtron 6y ago

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
rpiguy 6y ago
Vast majority of people recover just fine and what ever neurological structural changes are caused by the virus appear to have very little affect. The article claims that both non-severe and severe patients get the same damage, meaning that globally we have at minimum 10 million people with this damage, probably many time more since most cases aren't tested. But the article does very little to study if these changes actually effect people and for how long. Evidence, as well as basic observation points to people recovering very well from the disease (we have over 4 million cases in the US but the number of people with crippling long-term effects is minimal, otherwise we'd be able to observe a massive group of impaired individuals). The article does very little to illustrate that impact on people. For example, people who lose their sense of smell, which is listed as symptom in this Chinese study get it back and they get it back faster than when they lose the sense of smell with other viruses: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/08/thousands-covid-19-patients-lost-sense-smell-will-get-back-cvd/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/08/thousands...
- aphextron 6y ago
  > Evidence, as well as basic observation points to people recovering very well from the disease For now. We have no idea what kind of long term damage this is going to cause yet.
  - logicchains 6y ago
    >For now. We have no idea what kind of long term damage this is going to cause yet. Has there ever been an influenza/coronavirus-like infection with less than 0.1% fatality rate in working-age people (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/singapore/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/singapore/) that caused lasting disability in a significant proportion of the population? Given how the immune system works it doesn't make sense that someone's body is good enough at fighting the virus that it only displays mild cold-like symptoms yet weak enough that it somehow lets the virus cause serious long-term damage.
    - numbsafari 6y ago
      I have a cyst on my spine. It doesn't keep me from walking. But, many days, it keeps me awake and makes it very difficult for me to do physical tasks that I was once able to accomplish with ease. I used to be able to squat 545lbs. I can hardly lift 100 lbs without assistance. If I do a moderate day of yard work, I am unable to take a shower upright. All because of a pea-sized cyst. Just because something isn't fatal, or debilitating to the point of it putting you in a wheel chair, doesn't mean it can't have a massive impact on not only your quality of life and your relationships, it can keep you from being able to adequately care for yourself or be a productive member of society.
      - just-juan-post 6y ago
        Ok so what is your lockdown plan then? We lock down until what condition is met?
        mmmeff 6y ago
        Just fuck off
    - acqq 6y ago
      > Has there ever been an influenza/coronavirus-like infection with less than 0.1% fatality rate in working-age people (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/singapore/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/singapore/) that caused lasting disability in a significant proportion of the population? I've read that the low fatality rate of Singapore is due to mostly foreign, younger, healthy workers being the "cases" who were infected. Assuming that, the statistics of Singapore is not in any way inconsistent with what is observed in other locations. We already know that the older people have an order of magnitude higher probabilities to die while infected, or even two orders of magnitude when old enough. Note that the "fatality rate" in this context then says absolutely nothing about the permanent damages of the people's organs. The fatality rate is just "who promptly died after being detected positive." We don't know how many of Singapore cases remained with worse health after being infected, or even if some died or will die later, after being declared virus-free, and it's not probable that we'll know, them being the foreign workers. Therefore, it seems that citing Singapore in this way is irrelevant while talking about the known and reported cases of people with damaged health in, for example, the U.S. We need other statistics.
- seesawtron 6y ago
  >> But the article does very little to study if these changes actually effect people and for how long. The higher bilateral gray matter volumes (GMV) in olfactory cortices, hippocampi, insulas, left Rolandic operculum would have long-term consequences which are indeed what it means: "long-term" i.e. too short to see physical manifestations of the impact in this study. But these changes in the brain are in itself horrifying given that the symptoms only manifest as respiratory and so on.
- francisofascii 6y ago
  > the number of people with crippling long-term effects is minimal The thousands of of reported "long haulers" is troubling. While not crippling, feeling tired and feverish every day for months does not sound pleasant. It also raises awareness that viruses in general (not just Covid) could potentially help explain long term lingering health issues.
  - mmmeff 6y ago
    I'm a long hauler. Caught COVID in March. Still suffering. 28 years old. AMA.
    - burlesona 6y ago
      Which symptoms are still going?
    - just-juan-post 6y ago
      Tell us what your doctor says about your condition. Note I am NOT asking what you think your condition is. I am asking what your doctor is saying.
    - taigi100 6y ago
      How bad was your acute phase? Was it like a bad common cold or did you require hospitalization? Also, what symptoms do persist and how bad would you say they are? In what ways is your quality of life affected?
  - just-juan-post 6y ago
    The "thousands" of SELF-REPORTED long haulers. Can you show us any evidence of this happening to "thousands" of people besides the article in the Atlantic? The article that only speculates that there are thousands? AFIAK the Atlantic article said there were thousands in a Facebook group but the Atlantic did not dig into how many in the group had symptoms or were just there for support. Besides 1 off "dog bites man" stories the Atlantic article I see little reason to continue to suppress regular day to day life for something like this. You and others can howl all you want but the reality is the numbers are not on your side. The EMOTIONAL argument is on your side ("think about the children!") but you have almost no imperial evidence and continuing this lifestyle due to what possibly might happen or what happen to less than one one hundredth of a percent of the population is pure madness. Suppress the many to save the the .00001% from long term complications. Pure, weapons grade insanity.
creaghpatr 6y ago
Remember, the Lancet is not a reliable source and has already gotten caught fearmongering earlier this year: https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/04/lancet-retracts-major-covid-19-paper-that-raised-safety-concerns-about-malaria-drugs/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/04/lancet-retracts-major-co...
- DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
  Lancet is one of the foremost medical journals. Peer review does not filter out 100% of bad papers. For very understandable reasons, there's a huge pressure right now to get information about CoVID-19 out to the public (and to the medical community) quickly. That means that more bad papers are going to slip through right now. But what's the alternative? Would you rather that critical results about CoVID-19 be withheld for longer, in order to more thoroughly vet results? That's reasonable, but it involves a trade-off, and the Lancet would no doubt face criticism in the opposite direction if they withheld papers for longer.
  - ghthor 6y ago
    Except when the hypothesis is that COVID and millimeter wave radiation might be linked, that information is ruthlessly censoring by the publishing powers.
    - krapp 6y ago
      Because it's not a hypothesis, it's a nonsense conspiracy theory and of course medical journals will refuse to publish it. If people want that "information" its free for the taking on reddit, 4chan and facebook memes.
      - ghthor 6y ago
        If you think this is a conspiracy theory then I doubt you understand much of quantum theory and how photons interact with matter. This experiment were running with millimeter waves is dangerous, and I've yet to see the research that suggests otherwise. I just dont understand how others are not seeing this, were moving far to quickly with our usage of photon manipulation technologies and I dont see the justification for it.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
yters 6y ago
Combine such a capability with neuroscience and imagine the possibilities!
NiceWayToDoIT 6y ago
I am reading these negative neural impacts ranging from bad to worse, and I cannot help but think, how come there is not something in nature, a virus or bacteria, on the whole planet that can do something good? I do not know help boosting confidence, making people happier, increasing cognitive abilities, maybe improving your sense of smell or direction, gain muscle... at least something, instead it is always a very long list of destruction. Sorry guys, I am trying to offset, reading this paper made me depressive. EDIT: After reading all the answers, I remember a quote, probably answer to my question. It is not possible because we are very complex organism, and regardless how some virus or tiny bug can find flaws in our complexity, in the same way as randomly injected piece of code cannot improve application, the same way, is an equal chance that a virus will introduce positive change in our genome which will improve parameters we desire. Quote was Hoyle's Fallacy used for something completely different: "the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junkyard might assemble a Boeing 747" So it seems we need to wait for few million years or to really on marvel of genetically engineering. p.s. Thank you guys!
- bitdizzy 6y ago
  Yeast and Lactobacillus are the best friends you never knew you had.
- troughway 6y ago
  The intent behind most of this is to drive a constant sense of fear and worry without any rational cooldown, so expect to be depressed among other things. Until HN wakes up from fearmongering and "doomscrolling", the beatings will continue.
  - DenisM 6y ago
    Ok, but who and why is spreading the doom and gloom? I just don't see the profit motive.
  - throwaway29102 6y ago
    Do you have any sources to back up this claim or are you just issuing edicts?
coldcode 6y ago
Every time there is a discussion on Covid on HN, an army of trolls come out to pooh pooh everything. We are supposed to be better than Reddit here. It's about discussion not dissing. You don't have to agree with everything, but you also should not be ruining the thoughtful discussion.

76 points by seesawtron 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Vast majority of people recover just fine and what ever neurological structural changes are caused by the virus appear to have very little affect. The article claims that both non-severe and severe patients get the same damage, meaning that globally we have at minimum 10 million people with this damage, probably many time more since most cases aren't tested. But the article does very little to study if these changes actually effect people and for how long. Evidence, as well as basic observation points to people recovering very well from the disease (we have over 4 million cases in the US but the number of people with crippling long-term effects is minimal, otherwise we'd be able to observe a massive group of impaired individuals). The article does very little to illustrate that impact on people. For example, people who lose their sense of smell, which is listed as symptom in this Chinese study get it back and they get it back faster than when they lose the sense of smell with other viruses: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/08/thousands-covid-19-patients-lost-sense-smell-will-get-back-cvd/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/08/thousands...

aphextron 6y ago
> Evidence, as well as basic observation points to people recovering very well from the disease For now. We have no idea what kind of long term damage this is going to cause yet.
- logicchains 6y ago
  >For now. We have no idea what kind of long term damage this is going to cause yet. Has there ever been an influenza/coronavirus-like infection with less than 0.1% fatality rate in working-age people (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/singapore/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/singapore/) that caused lasting disability in a significant proportion of the population? Given how the immune system works it doesn't make sense that someone's body is good enough at fighting the virus that it only displays mild cold-like symptoms yet weak enough that it somehow lets the virus cause serious long-term damage.
  - numbsafari 6y ago
    I have a cyst on my spine. It doesn't keep me from walking. But, many days, it keeps me awake and makes it very difficult for me to do physical tasks that I was once able to accomplish with ease. I used to be able to squat 545lbs. I can hardly lift 100 lbs without assistance. If I do a moderate day of yard work, I am unable to take a shower upright. All because of a pea-sized cyst. Just because something isn't fatal, or debilitating to the point of it putting you in a wheel chair, doesn't mean it can't have a massive impact on not only your quality of life and your relationships, it can keep you from being able to adequately care for yourself or be a productive member of society.
    - just-juan-post 6y ago
      Ok so what is your lockdown plan then? We lock down until what condition is met?
      - mmmeff 6y ago
        Just fuck off
  - acqq 6y ago
    > Has there ever been an influenza/coronavirus-like infection with less than 0.1% fatality rate in working-age people (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/singapore/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/singapore/) that caused lasting disability in a significant proportion of the population? I've read that the low fatality rate of Singapore is due to mostly foreign, younger, healthy workers being the "cases" who were infected. Assuming that, the statistics of Singapore is not in any way inconsistent with what is observed in other locations. We already know that the older people have an order of magnitude higher probabilities to die while infected, or even two orders of magnitude when old enough. Note that the "fatality rate" in this context then says absolutely nothing about the permanent damages of the people's organs. The fatality rate is just "who promptly died after being detected positive." We don't know how many of Singapore cases remained with worse health after being infected, or even if some died or will die later, after being declared virus-free, and it's not probable that we'll know, them being the foreign workers. Therefore, it seems that citing Singapore in this way is irrelevant while talking about the known and reported cases of people with damaged health in, for example, the U.S. We need other statistics.
seesawtron 6y ago
>> But the article does very little to study if these changes actually effect people and for how long. The higher bilateral gray matter volumes (GMV) in olfactory cortices, hippocampi, insulas, left Rolandic operculum would have long-term consequences which are indeed what it means: "long-term" i.e. too short to see physical manifestations of the impact in this study. But these changes in the brain are in itself horrifying given that the symptoms only manifest as respiratory and so on.
francisofascii 6y ago
> the number of people with crippling long-term effects is minimal The thousands of of reported "long haulers" is troubling. While not crippling, feeling tired and feverish every day for months does not sound pleasant. It also raises awareness that viruses in general (not just Covid) could potentially help explain long term lingering health issues.
- mmmeff 6y ago
  I'm a long hauler. Caught COVID in March. Still suffering. 28 years old. AMA.
  - burlesona 6y ago
    Which symptoms are still going?
  - just-juan-post 6y ago
    Tell us what your doctor says about your condition. Note I am NOT asking what you think your condition is. I am asking what your doctor is saying.
  - taigi100 6y ago
    How bad was your acute phase? Was it like a bad common cold or did you require hospitalization? Also, what symptoms do persist and how bad would you say they are? In what ways is your quality of life affected?
- just-juan-post 6y ago
  The "thousands" of SELF-REPORTED long haulers. Can you show us any evidence of this happening to "thousands" of people besides the article in the Atlantic? The article that only speculates that there are thousands? AFIAK the Atlantic article said there were thousands in a Facebook group but the Atlantic did not dig into how many in the group had symptoms or were just there for support. Besides 1 off "dog bites man" stories the Atlantic article I see little reason to continue to suppress regular day to day life for something like this. You and others can howl all you want but the reality is the numbers are not on your side. The EMOTIONAL argument is on your side ("think about the children!") but you have almost no imperial evidence and continuing this lifestyle due to what possibly might happen or what happen to less than one one hundredth of a percent of the population is pure madness. Suppress the many to save the the .00001% from long term complications. Pure, weapons grade insanity.

creaghpatr 6y ago

Remember, the Lancet is not a reliable source and has already gotten caught fearmongering earlier this year: https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/04/lancet-retracts-major-covid-19-paper-that-raised-safety-concerns-about-malaria-drugs/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/04/lancet-retracts-major-co...

DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
Lancet is one of the foremost medical journals. Peer review does not filter out 100% of bad papers. For very understandable reasons, there's a huge pressure right now to get information about CoVID-19 out to the public (and to the medical community) quickly. That means that more bad papers are going to slip through right now. But what's the alternative? Would you rather that critical results about CoVID-19 be withheld for longer, in order to more thoroughly vet results? That's reasonable, but it involves a trade-off, and the Lancet would no doubt face criticism in the opposite direction if they withheld papers for longer.
- ghthor 6y ago
  Except when the hypothesis is that COVID and millimeter wave radiation might be linked, that information is ruthlessly censoring by the publishing powers.
  - krapp 6y ago
    Because it's not a hypothesis, it's a nonsense conspiracy theory and of course medical journals will refuse to publish it. If people want that "information" its free for the taking on reddit, 4chan and facebook memes.
    - ghthor 6y ago
      If you think this is a conspiracy theory then I doubt you understand much of quantum theory and how photons interact with matter. This experiment were running with millimeter waves is dangerous, and I've yet to see the research that suggests otherwise. I just dont understand how others are not seeing this, were moving far to quickly with our usage of photon manipulation technologies and I dont see the justification for it.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

yters 6y ago

Combine such a capability with neuroscience and imagine the possibilities!

NiceWayToDoIT 6y ago

I am reading these negative neural impacts ranging from bad to worse, and I cannot help but think, how come there is not something in nature, a virus or bacteria, on the whole planet that can do something good? I do not know help boosting confidence, making people happier, increasing cognitive abilities, maybe improving your sense of smell or direction, gain muscle... at least something, instead it is always a very long list of destruction. Sorry guys, I am trying to offset, reading this paper made me depressive. EDIT: After reading all the answers, I remember a quote, probably answer to my question. It is not possible because we are very complex organism, and regardless how some virus or tiny bug can find flaws in our complexity, in the same way as randomly injected piece of code cannot improve application, the same way, is an equal chance that a virus will introduce positive change in our genome which will improve parameters we desire. Quote was Hoyle's Fallacy used for something completely different: "the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junkyard might assemble a Boeing 747" So it seems we need to wait for few million years or to really on marvel of genetically engineering. p.s. Thank you guys!

bitdizzy 6y ago
Yeast and Lactobacillus are the best friends you never knew you had.
troughway 6y ago
The intent behind most of this is to drive a constant sense of fear and worry without any rational cooldown, so expect to be depressed among other things. Until HN wakes up from fearmongering and "doomscrolling", the beatings will continue.
- DenisM 6y ago
  Ok, but who and why is spreading the doom and gloom? I just don't see the profit motive.
- throwaway29102 6y ago
  Do you have any sources to back up this claim or are you just issuing edicts?

coldcode 6y ago

Every time there is a discussion on Covid on HN, an army of trolls come out to pooh pooh everything. We are supposed to be better than Reddit here. It's about discussion not dissing. You don't have to agree with everything, but you also should not be ruining the thoughtful discussion.