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Your comment reminds me of an episode of Joe Rogan with Johann Hari [1], talking about what really causes addiction and the failures of the "war on drugs." He

Your comment reminds me of an episode of Joe Rogan with Johann Hari [1], talking about what really causes addiction and the failures of the "war on drugs." He states, "The opposite of addiction is not sobriety, the opposite of addiction is connection." (18:08) The former U.S. surgeon general, Vivek Murthy, declared loneliness an epidemic, and just wrote a book on it [2]. I believe the biggest challenge we face in the United States centers on emotional health. How do we feel? Whom do we trust? Who do we think loves us? How do we rebuild trust? How do we apologize and forgive? How do we grieve? I watched a 60 Minutes episode talking about some of the pharma reps trying to convince doctors to prescribe more opioids [3]. One rep, Alec Burlakoff, had this interchange with the interviewer: > Bill Whitaker: You're preying on these people-- > Alec Burlakoff: Yeah, because they're desperate. They'll try anything. And they may get relief from Subsys initially, But we all know what's gonna happen. We know. We've been doin' this long enough. We know how it ends. > Bill Whitaker: And that is? > Alec Burlakoff: It ends in addiction, withdrawal, pain, suffering, and even death. > Bill Whitaker: And you didn't care about that? > Alec Burlakoff: Back then, I was numb to that. This reminds me that while I often think that the people who feel disconnected are the ones using the opioids, very often the ones selling them also feel disconnected. How did this man get so numb to selling products that he knew were causing so much pain and suffering to others? How did he get so numb in life in general? More importantly, how do we help him feel more alive? I agree, I don't think the Department of Justice, especially with a focus on punishment rather than rehabilitation, can lift us out of this hole. I believe it will require a focus on emotional health, on repairing relationships, on helping us feel less distant, more close, to our friends, family, neighbors, and fellow Americans. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDpjvFn4wgM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDpjvFn4wgM [2]: https://www.amazon.com/Together-Connection-Performance-Greater-Happiness/dp/0062913298 https://www.amazon.com/Together-Connection-Performance-Great... [3]: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/opioid-epidemic-pharmaceutical-executives-60-minutes-2020-06-21/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/opioid-epidemic-pharmaceutical-...

peteretep 6y ago
> Johann Hari A man whose professional experience is journalist and has no science, medical, public health, or psychotherapy background... and he’s trying to sell a book. Is this too harsh a take? Is there a reason I should be taking his opinion seriously?
- ghthor 6y ago
  Because it's a novel opinion, and novel opinions are what a good scientist needs to make major breakthroughs. I sure people were saying the same things about Galileo as there were of the women from Alexandria before him, etc.
  - jimkleiber 6y ago
    I like this, as scientists need hypotheses to test and often those can come from non-scientists. I wonder how many of our scientific discoveries have come from suggestions (or bold statements) from people in other fields. Sure, many may prove to be false, but I like how you've framed it as a novel opinion that could spur further research into a topic. What is science, if not a never-ending quest to learn more about the universe?
    - Donthatme 6y ago
      > I like this, as scientists need hypotheses to test and often those can come from non-scientists. Bold claim, or tortured use of often. > I wonder how many of our scientific discoveries have come from suggestions (or bold statements) from people in other fields. A lot of academic fields are fairly siloed from others. One example is presentations at a conference from a subfield that is just slightly oblique from yours is hard to follow because they use different jargon than you. It is getting a little better with some emphasis on interdisciplinary research. > Sure, many may prove to be false, but I like how you've framed it as a novel opinion that could spur further research into a topic. From my experience with being blasted by spam ideas just because my contact information is in a university's physics directory, a lot of/most 'novel opinion' is noise.
      - jimkleiber 6y ago
        > Bold claim, or tortured use of often. Fair point, it may not be that often. > A lot of academic fields are fairly siloed from others. One example is presentations at a conference from a subfield that is just slightly oblique from yours is hard to follow because they use different jargon than you. It is getting a little better with some emphasis on interdisciplinary research. True, jargon and other aspects can draw divisions really fast. I left the electrical and computer engineering department at my university to pursue international studies because it was interdisciplinary and I could basically build my own major from economics, intl business, anthropology, political science, and other areas. So I'm probably biased towards interdisciplinary stuff and maybe see more of it than there may be. > From my experience with being blasted by spam ideas just because my contact information is in a university's physics directory, a lot of/most 'novel opinion' is noise. I can only imagine how many novel theories of the universe you receive and how few have relevance. I still think sometimes we can see patterns in the odd/wrong suggestions they provide and come to hypotheses about things, but maybe more so in some fields than others, and maybe much less directly than I had postulated. Anyway, really appreciate the back and forth dialogue :-)
malux85 6y ago
> How did he get so numb in life in general? You laden them with paralysing amounts of debt in their late teens, force them into capitalistic servitude for the rest of the life. Make sure they earn only just enough to survive. Make sure they work until they are totally exhausted and you can’t squeeze another dollar of productivity out of them. Make sure they think the only alternative to this is homelessness/total destitution. Then don’t give them a legal or ethical option that shows them any future other than the above until they are dead, while their bosses boss gets rich. Then wonder why they act unethically
sva_ 6y ago
> How did this man get so numb to selling products that he knew were causing so much pain and suffering to others? If I had to take a guess, his income as the vice president of sales probably helped with that.
- jimkleiber 6y ago
  Yeah, I can imagine he faced many money/moral tradeoffs in his career, as do many of us, and perhaps he became more and more numb over time as he kept choosing the money, the whole boiling frog theory (if I used that correctly). I guess I still see it as an issue of how connected he felt to himself and other people. I know plenty of people right now, who, if they were offered his salary to do the same job, would never do it. And others who were probably in a field like that and quit because it was getting too much, or maybe even became whistleblowers. Makes me also think about how some of us can become workaholics to avoid pain in our lives, or crave lots of money to cover up for fears of not having or being enough.
  - ohbleek 6y ago
    I very much appreciate the way you’ve discussed these topics in this thread. You definitely have a tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt and I don’t think that quality is inherently faulty. I do think we have to recognize that some actions may require a certain level of sociopathic behavior and that sociopathy is very real.
    - jimkleiber 6y ago
      And I appreciate you saying this! I sometimes feel guilty for how I communicate on HN, being maybe a bit more emotional or colorful than other comments, but perhaps that's just me being self-conscious. So thank you. I guess with sociopathy, even if they are behaviors that are very difficult or impossible for a person to change (something I strongly doubt in most cases), I'm still curious as to what brought a person to that stage. This reminds me of one of the speeches that has touched my heart the most—"Love Your Enemies" by Martin Luther King, Jr.[1]—where he discusses how he strives to love a person, even if he doesn't like how they behave. I see sociopathy similarly—if the person can't change, I may remove myself as much as I can from their behaviors, but still wish them well. I don't know if it will help them change, but it sure helps me feel better :-) [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=522wcqUlS0Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=522wcqUlS0Y edit added link

peteretep 6y ago

> Johann Hari A man whose professional experience is journalist and has no science, medical, public health, or psychotherapy background... and he’s trying to sell a book. Is this too harsh a take? Is there a reason I should be taking his opinion seriously?

ghthor 6y ago
Because it's a novel opinion, and novel opinions are what a good scientist needs to make major breakthroughs. I sure people were saying the same things about Galileo as there were of the women from Alexandria before him, etc.
- jimkleiber 6y ago
  I like this, as scientists need hypotheses to test and often those can come from non-scientists. I wonder how many of our scientific discoveries have come from suggestions (or bold statements) from people in other fields. Sure, many may prove to be false, but I like how you've framed it as a novel opinion that could spur further research into a topic. What is science, if not a never-ending quest to learn more about the universe?
  - Donthatme 6y ago
    > I like this, as scientists need hypotheses to test and often those can come from non-scientists. Bold claim, or tortured use of often. > I wonder how many of our scientific discoveries have come from suggestions (or bold statements) from people in other fields. A lot of academic fields are fairly siloed from others. One example is presentations at a conference from a subfield that is just slightly oblique from yours is hard to follow because they use different jargon than you. It is getting a little better with some emphasis on interdisciplinary research. > Sure, many may prove to be false, but I like how you've framed it as a novel opinion that could spur further research into a topic. From my experience with being blasted by spam ideas just because my contact information is in a university's physics directory, a lot of/most 'novel opinion' is noise.
    - jimkleiber 6y ago
      > Bold claim, or tortured use of often. Fair point, it may not be that often. > A lot of academic fields are fairly siloed from others. One example is presentations at a conference from a subfield that is just slightly oblique from yours is hard to follow because they use different jargon than you. It is getting a little better with some emphasis on interdisciplinary research. True, jargon and other aspects can draw divisions really fast. I left the electrical and computer engineering department at my university to pursue international studies because it was interdisciplinary and I could basically build my own major from economics, intl business, anthropology, political science, and other areas. So I'm probably biased towards interdisciplinary stuff and maybe see more of it than there may be. > From my experience with being blasted by spam ideas just because my contact information is in a university's physics directory, a lot of/most 'novel opinion' is noise. I can only imagine how many novel theories of the universe you receive and how few have relevance. I still think sometimes we can see patterns in the odd/wrong suggestions they provide and come to hypotheses about things, but maybe more so in some fields than others, and maybe much less directly than I had postulated. Anyway, really appreciate the back and forth dialogue :-)

malux85 6y ago

> How did he get so numb in life in general? You laden them with paralysing amounts of debt in their late teens, force them into capitalistic servitude for the rest of the life. Make sure they earn only just enough to survive. Make sure they work until they are totally exhausted and you can’t squeeze another dollar of productivity out of them. Make sure they think the only alternative to this is homelessness/total destitution. Then don’t give them a legal or ethical option that shows them any future other than the above until they are dead, while their bosses boss gets rich. Then wonder why they act unethically

sva_ 6y ago

> How did this man get so numb to selling products that he knew were causing so much pain and suffering to others? If I had to take a guess, his income as the vice president of sales probably helped with that.

jimkleiber 6y ago
Yeah, I can imagine he faced many money/moral tradeoffs in his career, as do many of us, and perhaps he became more and more numb over time as he kept choosing the money, the whole boiling frog theory (if I used that correctly). I guess I still see it as an issue of how connected he felt to himself and other people. I know plenty of people right now, who, if they were offered his salary to do the same job, would never do it. And others who were probably in a field like that and quit because it was getting too much, or maybe even became whistleblowers. Makes me also think about how some of us can become workaholics to avoid pain in our lives, or crave lots of money to cover up for fears of not having or being enough.
- ohbleek 6y ago
  I very much appreciate the way you’ve discussed these topics in this thread. You definitely have a tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt and I don’t think that quality is inherently faulty. I do think we have to recognize that some actions may require a certain level of sociopathic behavior and that sociopathy is very real.
  - jimkleiber 6y ago
    And I appreciate you saying this! I sometimes feel guilty for how I communicate on HN, being maybe a bit more emotional or colorful than other comments, but perhaps that's just me being self-conscious. So thank you. I guess with sociopathy, even if they are behaviors that are very difficult or impossible for a person to change (something I strongly doubt in most cases), I'm still curious as to what brought a person to that stage. This reminds me of one of the speeches that has touched my heart the most—"Love Your Enemies" by Martin Luther King, Jr.[1]—where he discusses how he strives to love a person, even if he doesn't like how they behave. I see sociopathy similarly—if the person can't change, I may remove myself as much as I can from their behaviors, but still wish them well. I don't know if it will help them change, but it sure helps me feel better :-) [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=522wcqUlS0Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=522wcqUlS0Y edit added link