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And more importantly choke-hold over the government bureaucracy. They can essentially bulldoze government over any rules and regulations, and bribe around freel

by iamshs 6y ago

And more importantly choke-hold over the government bureaucracy. They can essentially bulldoze government over any rules and regulations, and bribe around freely. This is how Reliance got big.

donavanm 6y ago
I dont know if Id characterize it exactly like that. But “market access” does seem to be is gained by a Jio tie up. The economist has been covering it regularly. Heres a July write up https://www.economist.com/business/2020/07/04/india-incs-inward-turn https://www.economist.com/business/2020/07/04/india-incs-inw...
ggm 6y ago
I think this is about as useful as observing Boeing has a lock on the US government and distorts the market with Airbus. It completely ignores the real stories in technology and development which make people invest.
- victor106 6y ago
  Thats comparing Apples to Oranges. Read the book "The Polyester Prince". The Ambani's got it banned in India. It's an open secret that the Ambani's are the most corrupt family in India.
  - perryizgr8 6y ago
    > It's an open secret that the Ambani's are the most corrupt family in India. Not very sure about that lol!
    - kamaal 6y ago
      The publicly known net worth is just notional number not just in India but any country. Im pretty sure the princes and kings or Saudi, or Putin could be more worth than Bezos or Gates. That way corruption is very hard to measure in India. There was one story like an year back in the state of Telangana where a sub-inspector was caught, the raid revealed he was worth around 300 crore rupees. That is what he was unable to hide. What he was able to hide would be way more. He was also stupid flaunting around his wealth. Your tax commissioners, property registration DCs, other government front line approval staff, or police are just worth more than your ordinary industrialist these days. The ones below them, the lower level government bribe potential jobs easily beat the net worths of may be even top execs in your Software firms. This is illegal bribe. Legal bribes run even more deep. I knew of a person whose dad was in IAS, that man would get a plots(for negligible prices) from politicians every time BDA launched a layout in Bangalore. This is legal stuff. Their family is likely worth in upwards of a few hundred crores. Another sorry sight in any Indian city is traffic police standing around in corners making bribes, when they pull out bundles from their pockets to dispense change. Even a back of visual evaluation and a worse case back of envelop calculation you will see those men would have a few lacs in their pockets. All the best catching them, because most of these people have associations, and they meet bi-weekly in hotels and work with their legal teams to safeguard themselves. That way its hilarious to even try to evaluate net worth of politicians or big industrialists. Try checking the quantity of land banks real estate developers in a city like Bangalore own. Their game is set for decades.
      - perryizgr8 6y ago
        I mean paying bribes does not make you corrupt. The person accepting the bribe is corrupt. So the most corrupt family in India is most probably the Gandhi family. The Ambanis may be the family to have paid most of the bribes.
      - oefrha 6y ago
        For those like me who don’t know what’s a crore, it’s 10m; a crore rupees ~US$134k. Also looked up bribing traffic police as it sounds somewhat incredible. Found this: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/truckers-owners-pay-rs-48000-crore-a-year-in-bribes-study/articleshow/74414206.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-natio... According to that article, 82% of respondents (among truck drivers and fleet owners) alleged to have paid bribes in their last trip, at an estimated average of Rs 1257 (US$17) per trip (I assume people who’re annoyed about bribes are more likely to respond, so the reality should be somewhat better than 82% which is kind of crazy...).
  - 0xcafecafe 6y ago
    They are corrupt but most corrupt? Please read up on the Nehru-Gandhi family. I agree that family is shady but calling it the most corrupt is a hyperbole.
switch11 6y ago
support this 100% if you do your due diligence companies like Reliance (Dhirubhai Ambani) are the reason most honest smart Indians are fleeing the country From things like bribing the government at city and state levels, to 'disappearing competitors' to going after competitors with the sole purpose of killing them off Of course, now with what is happening with TikTok you could argue US is fast becoming the same you can just buy Government influence instead of having to compete
- 0xcafecafe 6y ago
  Honestly the reason people flee is due to the lack of opportunities as a result of the existing bureaucracy. You are conflating the cause of the inefficiency and one of the ways of getting around it. Reliance and Dhirubhai just showed how to navigate around it. The bureaucracy is a relic of the colonial past and it belongs in a museum. And I write this as an honest, maybe smart Indian sitting outside India.
ramshanker 6y ago
That may have been in the past. However ever since Modi Government came to power, industrials access to government has reduced drastically. Initial days of Modi, there used to be some fish trap to warn the officials.
- ameen 6y ago
  BJP, and it’s allies have been dependent on Reliance and the Ambani’s for so long. No way will Reliance be taken to task.
- lvbu 6y ago
  No way you can say that with straight face. The regulatory capture of TRAI by JIO is very well known.
  - quantummkv 6y ago
    Any proofs, incidents, facts, figures to support your accusations? > The regulatory capture of TRAI by JIO is very well known It is very well known in the same vein as "Bush did 9/11", "George Soros is the boss of Illumnati", "Zuckerberg is a lizard human", "Freemasons rule the world", "Area 51 has aliens", etc. Essentially baseless urban myths.
    - shripadk 6y ago
      > Any proofs, incidents, facts, figures to support your accusations? They have none. Just arm-chair conspiracy theorists.
- vijaybritto 6y ago
  "Industrial access to govt has reduced drastically"? Sorry, are you being sarcastic here? You read about how much Adani/Ambani are getting from this govt? Also the newly proposed rules for Environmental Impact? (https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/energy-and-environment/what-is-eia-and-why-is-indias-new-eia-draft-problematic/article32110013.ece https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/energy-and-environment/wha...) There are two things Modi is known for: 1. 2002 massacre of Muslims in Gujarat 2. Being friends with crony capitalists. This is not an exaggeration. You can read about what he did in his state when he was the chief minister.
quantummkv 6y ago
Here comes the copy pasted argument without any fact or figures to support it that appears in every thread regarding Jio/Reliance/Ambani/India or a combination thereof. Frankly, it is getting a bit stale and feels a lot like the standard Redditesqe drive-by factless commenting behavior to gain cheap karma and dopamine hits of raging against the system. HN is supposed to be better. > They can essentially bulldoze government over any rules and regulations, and bribe around freely. Um no. Can you show any, any incidences of them breaking the law or bribing anything other than "I know deep down in my heart of hearts that they do"? And regarding bulldozing regulations or skirting them, isn't that how every corporation works. Hell, that is essentially how every SV company, big or startup works. And so does any other company in any other country. Nothing unique or special going on here that should be pointed out in every thread. > This is how Reliance got big. This is not how Reliance got big. They got big by work and bringing products to the market. The founder made his first IPO by quite literally hawking his shares alongside his products to retail customers. And Jio is not something that is mandatorily being shoved down people's throats. People willingly use it and pay for it.
- rusticpenn 6y ago
  It was free for several months right?
- sumedh 6y ago
  > Can you show any, any incidences of them breaking the law or bribing anything other than "I know deep down in my heart of hearts that they do"? Not a corporate scenario but google how Ambani took care of his son's car accident.
  - quantummkv 6y ago
    The discussion and accusations are about his corporate practices. This does not affect or influence or impact his corporate practices or help with government control. And anyways a lot of people can take care of such issues in every country. Not all of them are capitalists or businessmen. So I doubt this scenario ties in anyway with suspect business practices.
hesarenu 6y ago
Jio got big since it offered services better then competition. Unless govt mandates everyone to use Jio they would have to stay competitive to be on top.

by iamshs 6y ago

And more importantly choke-hold over the government bureaucracy. They can essentially bulldoze government over any rules and regulations, and bribe around freely. This is how Reliance got big.

donavanm 6y ago

I dont know if Id characterize it exactly like that. But “market access” does seem to be is gained by a Jio tie up. The economist has been covering it regularly. Heres a July write up https://www.economist.com/business/2020/07/04/india-incs-inward-turn https://www.economist.com/business/2020/07/04/india-incs-inw...

ggm 6y ago

I think this is about as useful as observing Boeing has a lock on the US government and distorts the market with Airbus. It completely ignores the real stories in technology and development which make people invest.

victor106 6y ago
Thats comparing Apples to Oranges. Read the book "The Polyester Prince". The Ambani's got it banned in India. It's an open secret that the Ambani's are the most corrupt family in India.
- perryizgr8 6y ago
  > It's an open secret that the Ambani's are the most corrupt family in India. Not very sure about that lol!
  - kamaal 6y ago
    The publicly known net worth is just notional number not just in India but any country. Im pretty sure the princes and kings or Saudi, or Putin could be more worth than Bezos or Gates. That way corruption is very hard to measure in India. There was one story like an year back in the state of Telangana where a sub-inspector was caught, the raid revealed he was worth around 300 crore rupees. That is what he was unable to hide. What he was able to hide would be way more. He was also stupid flaunting around his wealth. Your tax commissioners, property registration DCs, other government front line approval staff, or police are just worth more than your ordinary industrialist these days. The ones below them, the lower level government bribe potential jobs easily beat the net worths of may be even top execs in your Software firms. This is illegal bribe. Legal bribes run even more deep. I knew of a person whose dad was in IAS, that man would get a plots(for negligible prices) from politicians every time BDA launched a layout in Bangalore. This is legal stuff. Their family is likely worth in upwards of a few hundred crores. Another sorry sight in any Indian city is traffic police standing around in corners making bribes, when they pull out bundles from their pockets to dispense change. Even a back of visual evaluation and a worse case back of envelop calculation you will see those men would have a few lacs in their pockets. All the best catching them, because most of these people have associations, and they meet bi-weekly in hotels and work with their legal teams to safeguard themselves. That way its hilarious to even try to evaluate net worth of politicians or big industrialists. Try checking the quantity of land banks real estate developers in a city like Bangalore own. Their game is set for decades.
    - perryizgr8 6y ago
      I mean paying bribes does not make you corrupt. The person accepting the bribe is corrupt. So the most corrupt family in India is most probably the Gandhi family. The Ambanis may be the family to have paid most of the bribes.
    - oefrha 6y ago
      For those like me who don’t know what’s a crore, it’s 10m; a crore rupees ~US$134k. Also looked up bribing traffic police as it sounds somewhat incredible. Found this: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/truckers-owners-pay-rs-48000-crore-a-year-in-bribes-study/articleshow/74414206.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-natio... According to that article, 82% of respondents (among truck drivers and fleet owners) alleged to have paid bribes in their last trip, at an estimated average of Rs 1257 (US$17) per trip (I assume people who’re annoyed about bribes are more likely to respond, so the reality should be somewhat better than 82% which is kind of crazy...).
- 0xcafecafe 6y ago
  They are corrupt but most corrupt? Please read up on the Nehru-Gandhi family. I agree that family is shady but calling it the most corrupt is a hyperbole.

switch11 6y ago

support this 100% if you do your due diligence companies like Reliance (Dhirubhai Ambani) are the reason most honest smart Indians are fleeing the country From things like bribing the government at city and state levels, to 'disappearing competitors' to going after competitors with the sole purpose of killing them off Of course, now with what is happening with TikTok you could argue US is fast becoming the same you can just buy Government influence instead of having to compete

0xcafecafe 6y ago
Honestly the reason people flee is due to the lack of opportunities as a result of the existing bureaucracy. You are conflating the cause of the inefficiency and one of the ways of getting around it. Reliance and Dhirubhai just showed how to navigate around it. The bureaucracy is a relic of the colonial past and it belongs in a museum. And I write this as an honest, maybe smart Indian sitting outside India.

ramshanker 6y ago

That may have been in the past. However ever since Modi Government came to power, industrials access to government has reduced drastically. Initial days of Modi, there used to be some fish trap to warn the officials.

ameen 6y ago
BJP, and it’s allies have been dependent on Reliance and the Ambani’s for so long. No way will Reliance be taken to task.
lvbu 6y ago
No way you can say that with straight face. The regulatory capture of TRAI by JIO is very well known.
- quantummkv 6y ago
  Any proofs, incidents, facts, figures to support your accusations? > The regulatory capture of TRAI by JIO is very well known It is very well known in the same vein as "Bush did 9/11", "George Soros is the boss of Illumnati", "Zuckerberg is a lizard human", "Freemasons rule the world", "Area 51 has aliens", etc. Essentially baseless urban myths.
  - shripadk 6y ago
    > Any proofs, incidents, facts, figures to support your accusations? They have none. Just arm-chair conspiracy theorists.
vijaybritto 6y ago
"Industrial access to govt has reduced drastically"? Sorry, are you being sarcastic here? You read about how much Adani/Ambani are getting from this govt? Also the newly proposed rules for Environmental Impact? (https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/energy-and-environment/what-is-eia-and-why-is-indias-new-eia-draft-problematic/article32110013.ece https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/energy-and-environment/wha...) There are two things Modi is known for: 1. 2002 massacre of Muslims in Gujarat 2. Being friends with crony capitalists. This is not an exaggeration. You can read about what he did in his state when he was the chief minister.

quantummkv 6y ago

Here comes the copy pasted argument without any fact or figures to support it that appears in every thread regarding Jio/Reliance/Ambani/India or a combination thereof. Frankly, it is getting a bit stale and feels a lot like the standard Redditesqe drive-by factless commenting behavior to gain cheap karma and dopamine hits of raging against the system. HN is supposed to be better. > They can essentially bulldoze government over any rules and regulations, and bribe around freely. Um no. Can you show any, any incidences of them breaking the law or bribing anything other than "I know deep down in my heart of hearts that they do"? And regarding bulldozing regulations or skirting them, isn't that how every corporation works. Hell, that is essentially how every SV company, big or startup works. And so does any other company in any other country. Nothing unique or special going on here that should be pointed out in every thread. > This is how Reliance got big. This is not how Reliance got big. They got big by work and bringing products to the market. The founder made his first IPO by quite literally hawking his shares alongside his products to retail customers. And Jio is not something that is mandatorily being shoved down people's throats. People willingly use it and pay for it.

rusticpenn 6y ago
It was free for several months right?
sumedh 6y ago
> Can you show any, any incidences of them breaking the law or bribing anything other than "I know deep down in my heart of hearts that they do"? Not a corporate scenario but google how Ambani took care of his son's car accident.
- quantummkv 6y ago
  The discussion and accusations are about his corporate practices. This does not affect or influence or impact his corporate practices or help with government control. And anyways a lot of people can take care of such issues in every country. Not all of them are capitalists or businessmen. So I doubt this scenario ties in anyway with suspect business practices.

hesarenu 6y ago

Jio got big since it offered services better then competition. Unless govt mandates everyone to use Jio they would have to stay competitive to be on top.