4 ms·

The "search" part of search and rescue is a solved problem. There's no reason to go into the wilderness without a PLB in 2020. PLBs cost around $300 [1], they

by ohazi 6y ago

The "search" part of search and rescue is a solved problem. There's no reason to go into the wilderness without a PLB in 2020. PLBs cost around $300 [1], they have five+ year batteries, and they don't require a subscription. If you need to use it, you turn it on, it grabs a GPS lock and transmits your coordinates for about a day, during which at least one satellite will see your signal and downlinks all over the planet will log your location. It may still take some time for rescue services to get to you, but finding you will no longer be the primary concern. If $300 is still too much, you can usually rent or borrow one for the duration of your trip. Just throw one in your backpack and consider yourself lucky if you never end up needing it. The nature of emergencies means you don't know what you're going to run into. You could be lost, you could have a broken leg, you could have been bitten by something lethal, you could be treading water 100 miles offshore. You could have provisions for a month, or you could need a medevac ASAP. If you actually have an emergency, do you want to sit around for a week and hope that you get noticed, or do you want rescue services all over the planet to have your exact coordinates within the hour? Ten years ago these might have been newfangled novelty gadgets, but today they really should be considered required safety equipment if you're going into an area that's remote, or where there's a real possibility of veering off course. If you're sailing a boat or flying an airplane, they're usually legally required now too. They may not be mandated for hikers or backpackers, but don't be an idiot -- you need to have one. Rescue services don't look for lines in the sand or messages in bottles anymore. The world spent over a billion dollars to get the Cospas-Sarsat program up and running, and the expected method for signaling distress in 2020 is by satellite. You should have the equipment to make a distress call if you're going to be in a position where it may be necessary. Don't needlessly make things harder on yourself and on rescue workers by thinking that it's manlier to flash a mirror at an airplane. That can be your backup method, but not your primary. [1] https://www.acrartex.com/products/resqlink-400 https://www.acrartex.com/products/resqlink-400

throwaway5752 6y ago
I'm not trying to take this discussion in a bad direction, but we're seeing a society-wide failure in the US to wear small pieces of cloth over our face to reduce the transmission of a serious illness. People frequently fail to prepare adequately even when given the means and opportunity. Search and rescue scenarios are not always for people that planned around getting lost and have a locator beacons on their person. I agree, if everyone had one, it would be ideal and would almost completely eliminate the need for what I described. edit: rather than reply and extend the thread, I just wanted to say I strongly agree with you on the matter of PRBs and survival prep. I think you may have persuaded me to pick one up for day hikes.
- ohazi 6y ago
  I'm trying to fight the perception that PLBs are expensive specialty gadgets meant for professional explorers [1]. They should be considered as basic and as necessary as a life vest, seat belt, or bike helmet. You should not be backpacking on the Appalachian trail without one. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24065435 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24065435
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    How would you feel about a $300 fee to use the national parks? If a PLB is required in all but law then that's almost the same effect. IMO that kind of goes against the spirit of having national parks and other purposely undeveloped areas. Sure it would be nice if everyone had one but I don't wanna make hiking and camping, which can be very cheap ways to recreate if you want them to be, instantly $300 more expensive.
    - cik2e 6y ago
      I think this is more for serious wilderness hiking and camping, not a trek through a national park with designated campgrounds. High quality backpacks and hiking boots are around $200, and tents are easily double that. If you’re going on hikes that pose a realistic chance of getting stranded, you’re probably pretty serious and already paying for premium equipment. In which case, another $300 for peace of mind shouldn’t be a dealbreaker.
    - ohazi 6y ago
      The vast majority of people that visit national parks stay at campsites that are attached to parking lots, that have running water and bathroom facilities, and that have at least some cell reception. Many of these are attached to well marked, well traveled trails with amazing views that make for excellent all-day hikes. You don't need a PLB to visit one of these camp sites or hike some of these trails. But if your off-the-grid campsite is a 30 hour hike from the nearest road, and half of that hike includes a mountain scramble and a trek across a frozen alpine lake, then I'm sorry, but you can't responsibly plan such a trip in 2020 and not carry a PLB. Between your clothes, boots, jackets, shelter, backpack, food, fuel, cooking gear, and navigation equipment, you're likely carrying at least $1000 of equipment. You can figure out how to borrow a PLB. Spending days flying circles around a vast wilderness where somebody might have gotten lost is expensive and time consuming and takes resources away from other people who might need them. It took 20 years to get Sarsat up and running and for PLBs to get cheap, and now rescue organizations all over the planet are asking you to please, for your sake, for theirs, and for the sake of other people who may also need emergency services, carry a goddamn PLB if you're going to go off the grid. Contrary to popular belief, going out into the wilderness is not about eschewing all technology. You still need to be responsible, and today, for certain activities, that means carrying a tiny piece of emergency equipment at the bottom of your backpack that you hope to never have to touch.
kingnothing 6y ago
If you use a PLB to get rescued, do you then owe a big check to the rescuing organization like when you call for an ambulance in the USA?
- floatrock 6y ago
  Yes, especially if the service calls a helicopter. The criticism against these is they've become so common that people either get overconfident and hike out beyond their abilities, or people call for help on minor issues like they didn't pack enough water or they get a headache.
  - kbaker 6y ago
    Actually, I think that only in cases where you showed extreme lack of preparedness will you get a bill. Most SAR organizations really don't want to have someone not call them because of the cost. Or worse, delay calling them and end up with a more time-critical or more dangerous rescue situation. https://www.facebook.com/NoChargeforRescue/ https://www.facebook.com/NoChargeforRescue/
  - jointpdf 6y ago
    Corroborating the sister comment here—you are unlikely to be charged unless you do something grossly negligent—something like ignoring explicit warnings not to climb Mt. Whitney in adverse conditions and going unpermitted. I can’t speak for what the policies are worldwide, but at least in the US (in particular California), you are very unlikely to be charged for the rescue services (medical costs are a different story). Usually the county is responsible for the SAR operation, which is typically carried out by volunteers. If you’re in a National Park, then it’s NPS. Again, they could fine you, but my understanding is that this is rare. Volunteers will even come looking for you for years after you’ve disappeared (https://www.climbing.com/people/vanished-the-mysterious-disappearance-of-a-climber-in-the-sierra-nevada/ https://www.climbing.com/people/vanished-the-mysterious-disa...). Anecdote: I knew a (European) PCT hiker who was airlifted out of the Sierra. They were diabetic and had suffered a cut that for a healthy person would have been non-threatening. They were not charged anything. It would have been a shame if they hesitated due to fear of getting slapped with a bill. Old but useful threads (and great forums in general—the HNs of backcountry travel): https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/14464/ https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/14464/ http://www.highsierratopix.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=8938 http://www.highsierratopix.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=893... > The vast majority of searches I have been on have no medical component whatsoever - in fact, none of the searches in the past several years, whether I have been on them or not, have involved medical intervention. A few have involved finding remains, which allow families closure and to make claims on life insurance - a community service that makes creeping through manzanita picking up bone shards worthwhile. If my family was depending on the income from life insurance and I vanished - I'd hope search teams found what was left of me. Some searches are related to law enforcement activities and locate evidence. Some searches are urban, and locate Alzheimer's sufferers or small children lost in town. None of them costs anyone a dime, and we don't appreciate the perpetuation of the myth that anyone is charged because we don't want to see anyone delay getting help when it's clear someone is missing.” > ”Which is why our search team has never and will never charge anything. We are a self supporting nonprofit organization. We buy our own gear, pay for our own training, and raise the funds to replace team gear. I just wrote a grant proposal to get us new gps units and will shortly submit another. Madera, Merced, Fresno, Tulare, Inyo and other counties are all independent agencies, nonprofits, and do not charge a cent.”
raxxorrax 6y ago
Somehow I prefer this solution than ubiquitous drones with superior audiovisual capabilities everywhere and especially in the most remote regions of the planet.
- flingo 6y ago
  > Somehow I prefer this solution than ubiquitous drones "When all you have is a hammer..." My only question is where most of that $300 cost is coming from.
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    Me too, but I would think the price is due to the low batch size in manufacturing. If we want PLB to spread, we would need to integrate them in smartphones. The price of the hardware would probably drop dramatically.

by ohazi 6y ago

throwaway5752 6y ago

I'm not trying to take this discussion in a bad direction, but we're seeing a society-wide failure in the US to wear small pieces of cloth over our face to reduce the transmission of a serious illness. People frequently fail to prepare adequately even when given the means and opportunity. Search and rescue scenarios are not always for people that planned around getting lost and have a locator beacons on their person. I agree, if everyone had one, it would be ideal and would almost completely eliminate the need for what I described. edit: rather than reply and extend the thread, I just wanted to say I strongly agree with you on the matter of PRBs and survival prep. I think you may have persuaded me to pick one up for day hikes.

ohazi 6y ago
I'm trying to fight the perception that PLBs are expensive specialty gadgets meant for professional explorers [1]. They should be considered as basic and as necessary as a life vest, seat belt, or bike helmet. You should not be backpacking on the Appalachian trail without one. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24065435 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24065435
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  How would you feel about a $300 fee to use the national parks? If a PLB is required in all but law then that's almost the same effect. IMO that kind of goes against the spirit of having national parks and other purposely undeveloped areas. Sure it would be nice if everyone had one but I don't wanna make hiking and camping, which can be very cheap ways to recreate if you want them to be, instantly $300 more expensive.
  - cik2e 6y ago
    I think this is more for serious wilderness hiking and camping, not a trek through a national park with designated campgrounds. High quality backpacks and hiking boots are around $200, and tents are easily double that. If you’re going on hikes that pose a realistic chance of getting stranded, you’re probably pretty serious and already paying for premium equipment. In which case, another $300 for peace of mind shouldn’t be a dealbreaker.
  - ohazi 6y ago
    The vast majority of people that visit national parks stay at campsites that are attached to parking lots, that have running water and bathroom facilities, and that have at least some cell reception. Many of these are attached to well marked, well traveled trails with amazing views that make for excellent all-day hikes. You don't need a PLB to visit one of these camp sites or hike some of these trails. But if your off-the-grid campsite is a 30 hour hike from the nearest road, and half of that hike includes a mountain scramble and a trek across a frozen alpine lake, then I'm sorry, but you can't responsibly plan such a trip in 2020 and not carry a PLB. Between your clothes, boots, jackets, shelter, backpack, food, fuel, cooking gear, and navigation equipment, you're likely carrying at least $1000 of equipment. You can figure out how to borrow a PLB. Spending days flying circles around a vast wilderness where somebody might have gotten lost is expensive and time consuming and takes resources away from other people who might need them. It took 20 years to get Sarsat up and running and for PLBs to get cheap, and now rescue organizations all over the planet are asking you to please, for your sake, for theirs, and for the sake of other people who may also need emergency services, carry a goddamn PLB if you're going to go off the grid. Contrary to popular belief, going out into the wilderness is not about eschewing all technology. You still need to be responsible, and today, for certain activities, that means carrying a tiny piece of emergency equipment at the bottom of your backpack that you hope to never have to touch.

kingnothing 6y ago

If you use a PLB to get rescued, do you then owe a big check to the rescuing organization like when you call for an ambulance in the USA?

floatrock 6y ago
Yes, especially if the service calls a helicopter. The criticism against these is they've become so common that people either get overconfident and hike out beyond their abilities, or people call for help on minor issues like they didn't pack enough water or they get a headache.
- kbaker 6y ago
  Actually, I think that only in cases where you showed extreme lack of preparedness will you get a bill. Most SAR organizations really don't want to have someone not call them because of the cost. Or worse, delay calling them and end up with a more time-critical or more dangerous rescue situation. https://www.facebook.com/NoChargeforRescue/ https://www.facebook.com/NoChargeforRescue/
- jointpdf 6y ago
  Corroborating the sister comment here—you are unlikely to be charged unless you do something grossly negligent—something like ignoring explicit warnings not to climb Mt. Whitney in adverse conditions and going unpermitted. I can’t speak for what the policies are worldwide, but at least in the US (in particular California), you are very unlikely to be charged for the rescue services (medical costs are a different story). Usually the county is responsible for the SAR operation, which is typically carried out by volunteers. If you’re in a National Park, then it’s NPS. Again, they could fine you, but my understanding is that this is rare. Volunteers will even come looking for you for years after you’ve disappeared (https://www.climbing.com/people/vanished-the-mysterious-disappearance-of-a-climber-in-the-sierra-nevada/ https://www.climbing.com/people/vanished-the-mysterious-disa...). Anecdote: I knew a (European) PCT hiker who was airlifted out of the Sierra. They were diabetic and had suffered a cut that for a healthy person would have been non-threatening. They were not charged anything. It would have been a shame if they hesitated due to fear of getting slapped with a bill. Old but useful threads (and great forums in general—the HNs of backcountry travel): https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/14464/ https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/14464/ http://www.highsierratopix.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=8938 http://www.highsierratopix.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=893... > The vast majority of searches I have been on have no medical component whatsoever - in fact, none of the searches in the past several years, whether I have been on them or not, have involved medical intervention. A few have involved finding remains, which allow families closure and to make claims on life insurance - a community service that makes creeping through manzanita picking up bone shards worthwhile. If my family was depending on the income from life insurance and I vanished - I'd hope search teams found what was left of me. Some searches are related to law enforcement activities and locate evidence. Some searches are urban, and locate Alzheimer's sufferers or small children lost in town. None of them costs anyone a dime, and we don't appreciate the perpetuation of the myth that anyone is charged because we don't want to see anyone delay getting help when it's clear someone is missing.” > ”Which is why our search team has never and will never charge anything. We are a self supporting nonprofit organization. We buy our own gear, pay for our own training, and raise the funds to replace team gear. I just wrote a grant proposal to get us new gps units and will shortly submit another. Madera, Merced, Fresno, Tulare, Inyo and other counties are all independent agencies, nonprofits, and do not charge a cent.”

raxxorrax 6y ago

Somehow I prefer this solution than ubiquitous drones with superior audiovisual capabilities everywhere and especially in the most remote regions of the planet.

flingo 6y ago
> Somehow I prefer this solution than ubiquitous drones "When all you have is a hammer..." My only question is where most of that $300 cost is coming from.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  Me too, but I would think the price is due to the low batch size in manufacturing. If we want PLB to spread, we would need to integrate them in smartphones. The price of the hardware would probably drop dramatically.