6 ms·

You are trapped in the same Hell as other creative types, such as musicians: there are countless young aspirants who are willing to do this work for free just f

You are trapped in the same Hell as other creative types, such as musicians: there are countless young aspirants who are willing to do this work for free just for a shot at "making it", but precious few people who sign checks who are able to discriminate the quality of the work. Engineering and accounting, your two comparison fields, don't suffer this problem.

raganwald 16y ago
Engineering, accounting, and other +regulated+ fields use social engineering to solve the problem of how to be paid handsomely. What they have done is convince society that there should only be a limited number of engineers and accountants, those that are highly trained and have passed rigorous examinations. The imbalance of supply and demand takes care of the rest. In those two fields, you can see that when supply is unfettered, compensation does fall. For example, accountants in Canada make fairly good money, but unlicensed "tax preparers" do not.
- samdelagarza 16y ago
  I'm not sure how it is for other engineering professions, but for software engineers we have a similar competition but instead of people willing to work for free it's people willing to work for peanuts out of India.
  - recoiledsnake 16y ago
    But what is peanuts to you is not peanuts to them. A different thing altogether from the point of this thread. A better comparison for software engineers would be with interns working for free just to gain experience, freeware or FOSS.
- olalonde 16y ago
  I totally agree with your reasoning although I'd say it only applies to regulated professions (accounting, construction engineering, etc.). Computer/software engineering isn't regulated.
  - paulgb 16y ago
    As a point of clarification, raganwald is from Canada where software engineering is regulated (though you don't need to be a software engineer to develop software professionally).
- joblessjunkie 16y ago
  I'm not sure if you are just trying to make a supplemental point, but this isn't really where I was going. Either my cell phone drops its signal, or it doesn't. Either my books balance and my checks clear, or they don't. In engineering and accounting, there are absolute and obvious measures of success. When it comes to UI design, who decides when the design is successful? My boss? He approved the Pontiac Aztek. Lord help us all.
  - kaishin 16y ago
    Allow me to chime in, UI design is as methodical as engineering and accounting. There are quantitative and qualitative methods to build and evaluate interfaces. Maybe you are referring to aesthetics, but that's only a fraction of what an interface is...
    - uniclaude 16y ago
      For sure, I think we all know that, but this is something your client or boss may not be aware of.
    - danenania 16y ago
      There may be metrics available, but it's an inherently fuzzy proposition to say a design 'works' or 'doesn't work'. For developers, once features are pinned down, there are much clearer criteria for success--a feature either works as described without errors or it doesn't. Most of the subjectivity that developers deal with is actually related to design. On the extreme end, you can say a design definitely doesn't work if a large percentage of users can't accomplish their goals or get frustrated in trying, but you can easily run into situations where half your users love a feature and will be frustrated without it, and half hate it and will have fits if you don't change it. Of course, these are the kinds of issues UI designers are paid to resolve, but there will rarely-to-never be total agreement between a designer, a client, and the client's customers on which aspects of a design work and which don't. Not so in development.
- joe_the_user 16y ago
  Engineering, accounting, and other +regulated+ fields use social engineering to solve the problem of how to be paid handsomely. What they have done is convince society that there should only be a limited number of engineers and accountants, those that are highly trained and have passed rigorous examinations. Yes, they've made an argument to society. And that argument is not entirely empty or "social engineering". With engineers, the argument is that the cost of, say, a bridge failure, is borne by not just the bridge builders but the people who might be driving on the bridge at the time of failure. Thus society, and not just the individual paying for the work, has an interest in requiring that certain work is done competently. It seems like a reasonable - it may be applied wrong -headedly or corruptly in places but for limited areas it seems entirely reasonable. You could answer that argument but when you just label the argument "social engineer" it more like your engaging in this yourself by dismissing the argument without engaging it.
  - raganwald 16y ago
    Politicians manipulate people's behaviour by appealing to their perceived best interest. So do companies marketing products. So do the Society of Engineers and the College of Physicians. Come to think of it, so do unions. Is there any "reasonableness" to their position? You can decide for yourself. If you don't like the expression "social engineering," I'm perfectly happy with "Engineers manipulate public behaviour to solve the problem of how to be paid handsomely." Whether that manipulation is in society's best interests is another argument, and yes I am avoiding it.* * "Avoiding it" does not mean that I disagree with your point.
    - joe_the_user 16y ago
      "Social engineering" and "manipulation" are terms for influence with a negative connotation. So I don't think you are entirely avoiding the question whether this influencing is valid. Moreover, you are making the presupposition that the end-goal is higher pay. That might be one goal but its quite possible engineers actually believe that regulation serves the public good. We could discuss this too but "meta-conversation" is mostly about avoiding the sneaking-in of positions without support. If a person were to say "engineers do an excellent job of educating the public concerning the need for their services to be regulated", well then the statement would skewed the other way - "Educate" is term with positive connotations. Perhaps "engineer have pushed for the regulation of their field" would be close to neutral...
hernan7 16y ago
What it feels like being disrupted, when you are a musician: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2664517-Who-is-responsible-for-bands-making-peanuts&p=40701817#post40701817 http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2664517-W... This is the tale of an ex-pro cover band player finding himself out of work, and coming to grips with the realization that the amateurs are not to blame, after all.
bigiain 16y ago
+1. But there are also people with track records at getting it right first time. Eventually the check signers (or the check signers bosses) work that out. (Hopefully before all the talented designers go broke.) Reminds me a lot of this: http://weblog.muledesign.com/2010/10/dear_gap_i_have_your_new_logo.php http://weblog.muledesign.com/2010/10/dear_gap_i_have_your_ne...
skue 16y ago
> Engineering and accounting... don't suffer this problem. Ha! You're not looking hard enough. Check out the healthcare industry to find "Developer Challenges" where companies attempt to recruit programmers to compete for tiny prizes that won't even replace their lost billable time. 1. http://health2challenge.org/ http://health2challenge.org/ 2. http://smartplatforms.org/ http://smartplatforms.org/ The second example is the funniest, given that the $5000 challenge is intended to promote a platform developed with a $60 Million grant! Bill Gates was even on hand to help kick off the challenge.

raganwald 16y ago

Engineering, accounting, and other +regulated+ fields use social engineering to solve the problem of how to be paid handsomely. What they have done is convince society that there should only be a limited number of engineers and accountants, those that are highly trained and have passed rigorous examinations. The imbalance of supply and demand takes care of the rest. In those two fields, you can see that when supply is unfettered, compensation does fall. For example, accountants in Canada make fairly good money, but unlicensed "tax preparers" do not.

samdelagarza 16y ago
I'm not sure how it is for other engineering professions, but for software engineers we have a similar competition but instead of people willing to work for free it's people willing to work for peanuts out of India.
- recoiledsnake 16y ago
  But what is peanuts to you is not peanuts to them. A different thing altogether from the point of this thread. A better comparison for software engineers would be with interns working for free just to gain experience, freeware or FOSS.
olalonde 16y ago
I totally agree with your reasoning although I'd say it only applies to regulated professions (accounting, construction engineering, etc.). Computer/software engineering isn't regulated.
- paulgb 16y ago
  As a point of clarification, raganwald is from Canada where software engineering is regulated (though you don't need to be a software engineer to develop software professionally).
joblessjunkie 16y ago
I'm not sure if you are just trying to make a supplemental point, but this isn't really where I was going. Either my cell phone drops its signal, or it doesn't. Either my books balance and my checks clear, or they don't. In engineering and accounting, there are absolute and obvious measures of success. When it comes to UI design, who decides when the design is successful? My boss? He approved the Pontiac Aztek. Lord help us all.
- kaishin 16y ago
  Allow me to chime in, UI design is as methodical as engineering and accounting. There are quantitative and qualitative methods to build and evaluate interfaces. Maybe you are referring to aesthetics, but that's only a fraction of what an interface is...
  - uniclaude 16y ago
    For sure, I think we all know that, but this is something your client or boss may not be aware of.
  - danenania 16y ago
    There may be metrics available, but it's an inherently fuzzy proposition to say a design 'works' or 'doesn't work'. For developers, once features are pinned down, there are much clearer criteria for success--a feature either works as described without errors or it doesn't. Most of the subjectivity that developers deal with is actually related to design. On the extreme end, you can say a design definitely doesn't work if a large percentage of users can't accomplish their goals or get frustrated in trying, but you can easily run into situations where half your users love a feature and will be frustrated without it, and half hate it and will have fits if you don't change it. Of course, these are the kinds of issues UI designers are paid to resolve, but there will rarely-to-never be total agreement between a designer, a client, and the client's customers on which aspects of a design work and which don't. Not so in development.
joe_the_user 16y ago
Engineering, accounting, and other +regulated+ fields use social engineering to solve the problem of how to be paid handsomely. What they have done is convince society that there should only be a limited number of engineers and accountants, those that are highly trained and have passed rigorous examinations. Yes, they've made an argument to society. And that argument is not entirely empty or "social engineering". With engineers, the argument is that the cost of, say, a bridge failure, is borne by not just the bridge builders but the people who might be driving on the bridge at the time of failure. Thus society, and not just the individual paying for the work, has an interest in requiring that certain work is done competently. It seems like a reasonable - it may be applied wrong -headedly or corruptly in places but for limited areas it seems entirely reasonable. You could answer that argument but when you just label the argument "social engineer" it more like your engaging in this yourself by dismissing the argument without engaging it.
- raganwald 16y ago
  Politicians manipulate people's behaviour by appealing to their perceived best interest. So do companies marketing products. So do the Society of Engineers and the College of Physicians. Come to think of it, so do unions. Is there any "reasonableness" to their position? You can decide for yourself. If you don't like the expression "social engineering," I'm perfectly happy with "Engineers manipulate public behaviour to solve the problem of how to be paid handsomely." Whether that manipulation is in society's best interests is another argument, and yes I am avoiding it.* * "Avoiding it" does not mean that I disagree with your point.
  - joe_the_user 16y ago
    "Social engineering" and "manipulation" are terms for influence with a negative connotation. So I don't think you are entirely avoiding the question whether this influencing is valid. Moreover, you are making the presupposition that the end-goal is higher pay. That might be one goal but its quite possible engineers actually believe that regulation serves the public good. We could discuss this too but "meta-conversation" is mostly about avoiding the sneaking-in of positions without support. If a person were to say "engineers do an excellent job of educating the public concerning the need for their services to be regulated", well then the statement would skewed the other way - "Educate" is term with positive connotations. Perhaps "engineer have pushed for the regulation of their field" would be close to neutral...

hernan7 16y ago

What it feels like being disrupted, when you are a musician: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2664517-Who-is-responsible-for-bands-making-peanuts&p=40701817#post40701817 http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2664517-W... This is the tale of an ex-pro cover band player finding himself out of work, and coming to grips with the realization that the amateurs are not to blame, after all.

bigiain 16y ago

+1. But there are also people with track records at getting it right first time. Eventually the check signers (or the check signers bosses) work that out. (Hopefully before all the talented designers go broke.) Reminds me a lot of this: http://weblog.muledesign.com/2010/10/dear_gap_i_have_your_new_logo.php http://weblog.muledesign.com/2010/10/dear_gap_i_have_your_ne...

skue 16y ago

> Engineering and accounting... don't suffer this problem. Ha! You're not looking hard enough. Check out the healthcare industry to find "Developer Challenges" where companies attempt to recruit programmers to compete for tiny prizes that won't even replace their lost billable time. 1. http://health2challenge.org/ http://health2challenge.org/ 2. http://smartplatforms.org/ http://smartplatforms.org/ The second example is the funniest, given that the $5000 challenge is intended to promote a platform developed with a $60 Million grant! Bill Gates was even on hand to help kick off the challenge.