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I've worked with H1 software engineers in the past, their skills ranged from highly capable to not very capable (same distribution i found among American softwa

I've worked with H1 software engineers in the past, their skills ranged from highly capable to not very capable (same distribution i found among American software engineers), but one thing that stood out to me was how hard they worked for their average to below average wages due to the fact that they feared getting laid off and being sent back to their home countries. I knew a guy who was at the beck and call of our then manager almost 24/7, this definitely creates unhealthy expectations in the labor market in general.

deleted 6y ago
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- deleted 6y ago
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net2net2net 6y ago
I can't stand the abuse of H1Bs. While I may have personal feelings on labor from immigration, these people are still people. In a similar flavor I never liked it when I worked at $BIGCO and people treated you differently if you were an employee v a contractor. It wasn't a privacy or trust-level thing - it was just social status stupidity.
- h1bthrow 6y ago
  As a F-1 OPT holder who is starting at a job with $200k base and almost double that in TC, I hate the claim that H1B is abusive. Can you tell me how I am being abused by my employer, who has helped me through every step of the way? No, I don’t think H-1B is abusive, it’s an opportunity for hardworking people to prove themselves just as, or more capable than the locals. I don’t think you’re truly concerned about my wellbeing, I think you’d just rather have my job.
  - net2net2net 6y ago
    No offense intended, but the majority of work visa holders (H1B) are not in your scenario. I'm glad you are in a good situation (money wise). I have seen them work for market average pay, but tolerate extreme hours and expectations that non-H1Bs would obviously reject. The companies know what game they are playing in these scenarios - it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
  - wool_gather 6y ago
    You've misread something here. They didn't say it was inherently abusive, they said they hate seeing people abused because of it.
    - h1bthrow 6y ago
      I don’t think having to work hard is abusive. Investment bankers famously work 70, 80 hour weeks voluntarily. Why can’t software engineers work a bit more than 40 hours a week if they wanted to? The ‘low pay’ that people claim is well above market average in most of the world, and above the median US income. People are mostly happy to have the opportunity to work here. I think that complaints of abuse are thinly veiled xenophobia. You pretend to be helping us, but you just want to protect your own overly inflated salaries from market forces.
      - ashayh 6y ago
        Wow :) You should save this comment and revisit it when you are 35ish. This attitude is exactly what companies want. It's Apple charging $1000 for a phone, and makes (say) $300 profit but you willingly hand over $1500 to them. Would you do that?
        h1bthrow 6y ago
        I've worked very hard to get to where I am, so working hard isn't difficult for me. I chose to work here because it provides the best life for me, not because anyone forced me to. Would you rather take this choice away from me?
        ashayh 6y ago
        No one is talking about taking that choice away from you. What you think is "best for you" changes for a lot of people over time. Meanwhile, using my iphone analogy again, you are merely raising the cost of a phone for those who "just want a phone". ie, you are raising the expectations for employers who will expect more people to work for 40+ hours, while getting paid for 40. If you are from a country with a long waiting time for a US green card, you should really look at a moving to another developed country, or marrying a local.
innagadadavida 6y ago
Fixing the immigration is needed to address these issues, but so far it’s been impossible to pass anything meaningful in congress and different parties have their own pet agendas.
president 6y ago
> due to the fact that they feared getting laid off and being sent back to their home countries > this definitely creates unhealthy expectations in the labor market in general. I have always assumed this was the goal; a way to skirt labor laws/protections and overtime normalize overworking and manager worship because American workers are "lazy".
CM30 6y ago
> but one thing that stood out to me was how hard they worked for their average to below average wages due to the fact that they feared getting laid off and being sent back to their home countries. Part of me wonders whether this is also because of their expectations for a reasonable salary/conditions. If you come from a country where wages are much lower than in the US, even a terrible wage from a tech company must seem like an amazing one. This then makes the comparison even more stacked towards the H1 worker. Of course they'll 'work harder' for that wage, it seems like a decent one for them and (as mentioned), there's a risk of being sent back. Meanwhile any US based employee you can get for similar money will probably be far below average in terms of skills/mindset, since no one with any real expertise will work for these wages.
noskllzgap88 6y ago
That’s the real “skills gap” tech companies mean. Americans are too aware of the game. Most office job coding work these days is filling out templated layers of indirection via frameworks and APIs. Google doesn’t have an information advantage. It has a capital advantage. It’s the same old math belying all those algorithms. They’re trying to sell the idea they possess an information advantage over less developed nations as Americans/westerners don’t buy their story anymore. They’re bored and gonna charge more to fill in the new templates of indirection.
908B64B197 6y ago
If I want to hire: A smart graduate from EPFL, Polytechnique or ETH Zurich who interned at CERN and has contributed to the Linux kernel for a software engineering job at a unicorn startup or A grad from a second tier "technical college" in India with a visa refusal rate of ~90% for a job doing manual UI testing and QA for a body shop my only path forward is H1. They'll both be listed as "computer related occupations" and apply for the same visa in the same quota. Does that makes any sense to anyone?

deleted 6y ago

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deleted 6y ago
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net2net2net 6y ago

I can't stand the abuse of H1Bs. While I may have personal feelings on labor from immigration, these people are still people. In a similar flavor I never liked it when I worked at $BIGCO and people treated you differently if you were an employee v a contractor. It wasn't a privacy or trust-level thing - it was just social status stupidity.

h1bthrow 6y ago
As a F-1 OPT holder who is starting at a job with $200k base and almost double that in TC, I hate the claim that H1B is abusive. Can you tell me how I am being abused by my employer, who has helped me through every step of the way? No, I don’t think H-1B is abusive, it’s an opportunity for hardworking people to prove themselves just as, or more capable than the locals. I don’t think you’re truly concerned about my wellbeing, I think you’d just rather have my job.
- net2net2net 6y ago
  No offense intended, but the majority of work visa holders (H1B) are not in your scenario. I'm glad you are in a good situation (money wise). I have seen them work for market average pay, but tolerate extreme hours and expectations that non-H1Bs would obviously reject. The companies know what game they are playing in these scenarios - it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
- wool_gather 6y ago
  You've misread something here. They didn't say it was inherently abusive, they said they hate seeing people abused because of it.
  - h1bthrow 6y ago
    I don’t think having to work hard is abusive. Investment bankers famously work 70, 80 hour weeks voluntarily. Why can’t software engineers work a bit more than 40 hours a week if they wanted to? The ‘low pay’ that people claim is well above market average in most of the world, and above the median US income. People are mostly happy to have the opportunity to work here. I think that complaints of abuse are thinly veiled xenophobia. You pretend to be helping us, but you just want to protect your own overly inflated salaries from market forces.
    - ashayh 6y ago
      Wow :) You should save this comment and revisit it when you are 35ish. This attitude is exactly what companies want. It's Apple charging $1000 for a phone, and makes (say) $300 profit but you willingly hand over $1500 to them. Would you do that?
      - h1bthrow 6y ago
        I've worked very hard to get to where I am, so working hard isn't difficult for me. I chose to work here because it provides the best life for me, not because anyone forced me to. Would you rather take this choice away from me?
        ashayh 6y ago
        No one is talking about taking that choice away from you. What you think is "best for you" changes for a lot of people over time. Meanwhile, using my iphone analogy again, you are merely raising the cost of a phone for those who "just want a phone". ie, you are raising the expectations for employers who will expect more people to work for 40+ hours, while getting paid for 40. If you are from a country with a long waiting time for a US green card, you should really look at a moving to another developed country, or marrying a local.

innagadadavida 6y ago

Fixing the immigration is needed to address these issues, but so far it’s been impossible to pass anything meaningful in congress and different parties have their own pet agendas.

president 6y ago

> due to the fact that they feared getting laid off and being sent back to their home countries > this definitely creates unhealthy expectations in the labor market in general. I have always assumed this was the goal; a way to skirt labor laws/protections and overtime normalize overworking and manager worship because American workers are "lazy".

CM30 6y ago

> but one thing that stood out to me was how hard they worked for their average to below average wages due to the fact that they feared getting laid off and being sent back to their home countries. Part of me wonders whether this is also because of their expectations for a reasonable salary/conditions. If you come from a country where wages are much lower than in the US, even a terrible wage from a tech company must seem like an amazing one. This then makes the comparison even more stacked towards the H1 worker. Of course they'll 'work harder' for that wage, it seems like a decent one for them and (as mentioned), there's a risk of being sent back. Meanwhile any US based employee you can get for similar money will probably be far below average in terms of skills/mindset, since no one with any real expertise will work for these wages.

noskllzgap88 6y ago

That’s the real “skills gap” tech companies mean. Americans are too aware of the game. Most office job coding work these days is filling out templated layers of indirection via frameworks and APIs. Google doesn’t have an information advantage. It has a capital advantage. It’s the same old math belying all those algorithms. They’re trying to sell the idea they possess an information advantage over less developed nations as Americans/westerners don’t buy their story anymore. They’re bored and gonna charge more to fill in the new templates of indirection.

908B64B197 6y ago

If I want to hire: A smart graduate from EPFL, Polytechnique or ETH Zurich who interned at CERN and has contributed to the Linux kernel for a software engineering job at a unicorn startup or A grad from a second tier "technical college" in India with a visa refusal rate of ~90% for a job doing manual UI testing and QA for a body shop my only path forward is H1. They'll both be listed as "computer related occupations" and apply for the same visa in the same quota. Does that makes any sense to anyone?