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I've been wondering how I could bring this up with the mainland Chinese I know. It's particularly difficult, because for some of them I'm in a supervisory/manag

I've been wondering how I could bring this up with the mainland Chinese I know. It's particularly difficult, because for some of them I'm in a supervisory/managerial role, but I don't want to put pressure on them, which would raise all sort of other ethical dilemmas and would likely not be effective. Anyone else can share experiences?

raxxorrax 6y ago
Why would you want to bring that up with them specifically? Not advocating that people should look the other way, but I wouldn't like superiors associating me with the deeds of the government of China. It might have been a good idea to actually support the protests for freedom in Hong Kong, but the "west" looked extremely weak here, laden with its own problems. edit: Just to clarify, I wouldn't bring up Hong Kong either...
dangus 6y ago
You should not.
aaomidi 6y ago
Just no.
throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
From a moral perspective, that's maybe one thing. From a legal it might be another - you might be construed as discriminating against them or harassing them based on their ethnicity, which is in fact valid; if they weren't chinese you wouldn't be discussing it with them. So in that sense I really would think carefully. In fact, don't. If they bring it up themselves, for or against that slightly changes things but frankly if they're supportive of the oppression then doing anything other than telling them "keep that opinion to yourself" is a minefield. Taking them on will most likely blow up in your face. (edit: no 'most likely' about it. It will). If they are against it and wish to discuss it with you and what to do, it's still a danger (I can't say why, more a feeling) and I'd advise them to contact/join an external group, or their MP/representative etc. and leave it at that. Shit like this discussed at work is bad news, I don't see how doing it can make things better. Anyone who disagrees and can make a better suggestion, I'm very willing to learn from. Edit: to those downvoters, I'm NOT saying don't discuss it, I'm saying don't do so at work. It is deeply unlikely anything helpful will come of for anyone, but it is very likely to damage your reputation or even lose you your job. Speak up! Sure, but in the right place and to those whose job it is to make a difference.
- cycomanic 6y ago
  These are some of the thoughts I've been having as well. On the other hand I'm actually generally interested in how this situation is communicated in China? How much and what do they know about it (note that they left China some years ago). I have to say I also find it chilling to say we can't discuss topics which have political implications for fear of it being construed of harassment. I have been frequently asked about political events/situations in Germany (where I come from), without it feeling like harassment at all.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    > I have been frequently asked about political events/situations in Germany Do those involve anything as awful as what's happening in China? If they were and you were asked to comment, how would it make you feel? > I have to say I also find it chilling to say we can't discuss topics which have political implications Sure you can! Just not at work. Mate, don't do it. Take it from someone who can't keep his mouth shut.
    - katbyte 6y ago
      The “don’t talk politics” at work thing has always confused me, isn’t standing by silent while injustices occur sorta what led to the nazis?
      - refurb 6y ago
        Pro-life/anti-abortion people believe that they are fighting for human rights. Let’s say they start talking to people at work about it. If the conversation stays civilized, no big deal. But they don’t want to limit it to talking. This is about human rights how can you just sit there and do nothing? You’re complicit! Now people are avoiding that person. Team cohesion suffers. People are calling in sick to avoid the stress of it all. Management is dealing with shit from both sides. What would you do if you were running the company? If you want to let people talk politics at work, you can’t just limit it to the politics you agree with.
    - 6y ago
mehmetoguzderin 6y ago
Han Chinese are also speaking up for this: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/06/witness-to-discrimination-confessions-of-a-han-chinese-from-xinjiang/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/06/witness-to-di... (But I would not suggest discussing unless you are close friends beyond work)
fiblye 6y ago
There are two outcomes: 1: They really will not know what you're talking about and think you're crazy and just hate Chinese people (this is common). 2: They will somewhat know what you're talking about, and have a massive list of bad things your country has done/is still doing, and you won't be happy (this is also common, but slightly less common) If you were good friends, you can mention this and drop it and try to move on. If you're doing this at work, it won't end well for anyone involved, and it'll be doubly bad if you're in an authority position.
- lc5G 6y ago
  > They will somewhat know what you're talking about, and have a massive list of bad things your country has done/is still doing, and you won't be happy Ignoring the "at work" part, you can then both realize that you should acknowledge and fight against any country doing bad things and that these bad things are not excused because other countries (or people) are also doing bad things. Two wrongs don't make a right. (I'm aware you did not claim that they did.)
  - tidenly 6y ago
    If someone came up to an American abroad and demanded they attest for the detention centers on the border people would call that ridiculous. The idea this person is entertaining the idea of doing the same for Chinese people who work with them is just as much so.
- calf 6y ago
  Note that the outcomes you describe are only bad at preserving the status quo at that workplace.
  - fiblye 6y ago
    The outcomes will also give them a heightened sense of nationalism and feed into the idea that the West is just out to get China and Chinese people, which the media plays up quite a bit. As an American, sitting down next to a European on vacation for more than a few minutes is never fun. Once they inevitably ask "Where are you from?", they follow it up with a lecture on American politics before I can even finish my sentence. It's tedious and it's nothing new. It's probably way more frustrating for people having to listen to their boss lecture them at work about how screwed up a country they've never been to but you've lived your whole life in is. You're not in a position to just politely say "bye" and never see them ever again without any consequence. You certainly can't speak up against them because they're in a position of authority.
jhanschoo 6y ago
On one extreme, you don't know if they tend to distrust Western media while trusting Chinese state media. If it is important not to compromise your relationship with them, don't pass off any of the news as your opinion, but report about the Western reporting on the Uighurs, trying also not to signal that you trust these reports or these media outlets.
bmitc 6y ago
In a workplace environment, it is completely inappropriate. Second of all, why? What do you wish to discuss? What would you like to happen? What do these people have to do with it? If you're in the U.S., do you have anything useful to discuss regarding Guantanamo Bay and the many other U.S. black sites or the Mexican concentration camps run at the border? Do you think those are appropriate conversation pieces to bring up if they don't occur naturally? How would you feel if someone brought them up as if to teach you or make you aware of them as if you didn't know or had any affect whatsoever on their existence?
- phreack 6y ago
  There is a comparable situation with Americans, many people are unaware of the Tulsa massacre, and the reaction I've seen from people first hearing about it is mostly anger at it not being taught. Personally I'd be thankful to know of censored history, particularly if it is occurring and being censored right now, in a democracy.
  - noja 6y ago
    Don't do that. Both are bad. The existence of one does not prevent the discussion of the other. Please do not try to derail or distract the discussion.
  - ailun 6y ago
    What? I learned about the Tulsa massacre, and another similar situation that I can’t remember (maybe in Florida?), in high school. How is it being censored?
    - Kye 6y ago
      Education in the US is inconsistent because states determine what's taught. I only learned about it a few years ago. Good video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsxukOPEdgg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsxukOPEdgg
    - Grimm665 6y ago
      I grew up in what would be called a progressive part of the US and was never taught about it. I felt angry and supremely let down by our education system that I only found out about this last week.
admk 6y ago
My suggestion is that you shouldn't bother. The Chinese people would not believe the Western media narrative on Xinjiang (XJ), which also doesn't really have credible sources if look deeper into their "facts" [0]. And it is increasingly clear that the XJ narrative is a US-backed propaganda rather than factual reporting [1]. Most of us would consider the western people being brainwashed into believing whatever the media puts out about XJ, just as much as the English speaking westerners think about us. Please ponder about this: can I, as a Chinese, easily change your media-fed opinion on XJ? Yet I am trying my best here (because I procrastinate). The video shown by the BBC about the official visit to the vocational training center implants a subliminal message of "bad things are happening here" with eerie BGM and horror-movie-like filter. Your system 1, i.e. your fast, instinctive and emotional mind [2] would also be tricked by that too. Regardless of what's happening there, do you really think this is the way of objective, bias-free reporting? Personally, I do not like the way they train these people. Westerners would never understand this culturally. But when compared to the war effort instigated by the US against Islamic nations, vocational training is IMHO a much better alternative against terrorism. XJ used to have a terrorism problem, and it's now much safer. I would suggest you guys to travel in XJ after opening up, if possible, it is an incredible place to visit. If not then there are plenty of local people on youtube vlogging their daily lifes. [0]: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/status/1288269064297537537 https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/status/128826906429753753... [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/hwi7ub/i_am_sophie_richardson_china_director_at_human/fz17y2f/ https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/hwi7ub/i_am_soph... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow Source: am Chinese living in China, sitting in a coffee shop and procrastinating. Edit: typo.
- coincidents 6y ago
  Throwaway because yeah. What's fun is your account is four years old and you have three posts, all of which have a pro-China bias. Why are you ignoring the human rights atrocities happening in China, and why are you turfing for Xi's brutal government?
  - admk 6y ago
pjc50 6y ago
More to the point, what do you want them to do about it?
abc-xyz 6y ago
I think it’s perfectly normal in companies to share news and whatnot in various group chats. We often share news related to Xinjiang, Hong Kong, the virus, BLM, Trump, etc. We don’t all share the same political views, but we’re all adults.
bzb3 6y ago
How can you not see how grossly inappropriate it is to push politics in the workplace?
auganov 6y ago
In my experience a lot of the population is very anti-Uighur and they wouldn't care that much. In the run up to this people have been conditioned by images of violent protests in the region. They have been demonized as religious fanatics. Religion in of itself is a big no-no in China. You combine that with anti-Muslim sentiment and a different ethnicity and it's pretty easy to demonize a group. To convince them you'd really have to go into details and explain just how unjust the whole ordeal is. Most pro-govt people's default assumption will be they're doing a good job taking care of bad people. Even the notion that someone of a different religion and ethnicity who might not speak the language should be rightfully considered a Chinese citizen deserving all the same freedoms is a tough sell.
- MagnumOpus 6y ago
  > a lot of the population is very anti-Uighur You are totally right -- it really tends to go that way when 98% of them never met a really life Uighur and the only things they hear about them are from television - i.e. from the same people who are sending the Uighurs off to the gas chambers...
- throwr432345 6y ago
  It’s similar to talking to Conservatives about BLM. You need to approach it from that mindset.
yadco 6y ago
If they don't have the same free speech that you do, you could be putting them in a uncomfortable/risky situation.
SkyMarshal 6y ago
Don't. There's nothing they can do about it. The CCP will disappear them if they try. Don't put them at risk by even talking to them about it. This is a problem to be handled at the diplomatic level between govts, by govts concerned about human rights abuses using various forms economic and diplomatic leverage and pressure to effect change. You can pressure your own govt to do that if want.
winxton 6y ago
It's a losing battle. Without going into workplace relationships, the public perception of the Chinese population to their government is overwhelmingly positive. I've experienced it in my own friends and relatives, even those who have gone to university in North America for degrees like law. For an outsider without cultural understanding, it's nearly impossible. It's hard to change minds when the education system doesn't support free thinking that challenges authority, when identity is caught up with national pride and the us vs them mentality. That's why it's important to use language like CCP instead of China to separate the people from the government. The most common defense is whataboutism. Talk about Uigher camps in Xingjiang or the Hong Kong protests? "But America has racism, and police beatdowns." The argument against democracy is that the people aren't educated enough to handle voting, for example and bring up covid cases in the US. I had a conversation a while back with my cousin, who didn't like Morey's (NBA GM) comments about Hong Kong and supported the Rockets ban. me: "But it's his personal opinions, can't he say what he wants?" cousin: "No, because he's a known person. It's like Xi saying California isn't a part of the US." cousin: "That's fine, because everybody knows it's not true. We'll just think he's dumb." cousin (jokingly): "that's just the cultural difference between east and west" Unfortunately, it's hard to bring up any real nuanced conversation, and especially hard to change any minds. (i.e. like how none of the HK protestors key demands were to actually separate, something many people in China thought)

raxxorrax 6y ago

Why would you want to bring that up with them specifically? Not advocating that people should look the other way, but I wouldn't like superiors associating me with the deeds of the government of China. It might have been a good idea to actually support the protests for freedom in Hong Kong, but the "west" looked extremely weak here, laden with its own problems. edit: Just to clarify, I wouldn't bring up Hong Kong either...

dangus 6y ago

You should not.

aaomidi 6y ago

Just no.

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago

From a moral perspective, that's maybe one thing. From a legal it might be another - you might be construed as discriminating against them or harassing them based on their ethnicity, which is in fact valid; if they weren't chinese you wouldn't be discussing it with them. So in that sense I really would think carefully. In fact, don't. If they bring it up themselves, for or against that slightly changes things but frankly if they're supportive of the oppression then doing anything other than telling them "keep that opinion to yourself" is a minefield. Taking them on will most likely blow up in your face. (edit: no 'most likely' about it. It will). If they are against it and wish to discuss it with you and what to do, it's still a danger (I can't say why, more a feeling) and I'd advise them to contact/join an external group, or their MP/representative etc. and leave it at that. Shit like this discussed at work is bad news, I don't see how doing it can make things better. Anyone who disagrees and can make a better suggestion, I'm very willing to learn from. Edit: to those downvoters, I'm NOT saying don't discuss it, I'm saying don't do so at work. It is deeply unlikely anything helpful will come of for anyone, but it is very likely to damage your reputation or even lose you your job. Speak up! Sure, but in the right place and to those whose job it is to make a difference.

cycomanic 6y ago
These are some of the thoughts I've been having as well. On the other hand I'm actually generally interested in how this situation is communicated in China? How much and what do they know about it (note that they left China some years ago). I have to say I also find it chilling to say we can't discuss topics which have political implications for fear of it being construed of harassment. I have been frequently asked about political events/situations in Germany (where I come from), without it feeling like harassment at all.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  > I have been frequently asked about political events/situations in Germany Do those involve anything as awful as what's happening in China? If they were and you were asked to comment, how would it make you feel? > I have to say I also find it chilling to say we can't discuss topics which have political implications Sure you can! Just not at work. Mate, don't do it. Take it from someone who can't keep his mouth shut.
  - katbyte 6y ago
    The “don’t talk politics” at work thing has always confused me, isn’t standing by silent while injustices occur sorta what led to the nazis?
    - refurb 6y ago
      Pro-life/anti-abortion people believe that they are fighting for human rights. Let’s say they start talking to people at work about it. If the conversation stays civilized, no big deal. But they don’t want to limit it to talking. This is about human rights how can you just sit there and do nothing? You’re complicit! Now people are avoiding that person. Team cohesion suffers. People are calling in sick to avoid the stress of it all. Management is dealing with shit from both sides. What would you do if you were running the company? If you want to let people talk politics at work, you can’t just limit it to the politics you agree with.
  - 6y ago

mehmetoguzderin 6y ago

Han Chinese are also speaking up for this: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/06/witness-to-discrimination-confessions-of-a-han-chinese-from-xinjiang/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/06/witness-to-di... (But I would not suggest discussing unless you are close friends beyond work)

fiblye 6y ago

There are two outcomes: 1: They really will not know what you're talking about and think you're crazy and just hate Chinese people (this is common). 2: They will somewhat know what you're talking about, and have a massive list of bad things your country has done/is still doing, and you won't be happy (this is also common, but slightly less common) If you were good friends, you can mention this and drop it and try to move on. If you're doing this at work, it won't end well for anyone involved, and it'll be doubly bad if you're in an authority position.

lc5G 6y ago
> They will somewhat know what you're talking about, and have a massive list of bad things your country has done/is still doing, and you won't be happy Ignoring the "at work" part, you can then both realize that you should acknowledge and fight against any country doing bad things and that these bad things are not excused because other countries (or people) are also doing bad things. Two wrongs don't make a right. (I'm aware you did not claim that they did.)
- tidenly 6y ago
  If someone came up to an American abroad and demanded they attest for the detention centers on the border people would call that ridiculous. The idea this person is entertaining the idea of doing the same for Chinese people who work with them is just as much so.
calf 6y ago
Note that the outcomes you describe are only bad at preserving the status quo at that workplace.
- fiblye 6y ago
  The outcomes will also give them a heightened sense of nationalism and feed into the idea that the West is just out to get China and Chinese people, which the media plays up quite a bit. As an American, sitting down next to a European on vacation for more than a few minutes is never fun. Once they inevitably ask "Where are you from?", they follow it up with a lecture on American politics before I can even finish my sentence. It's tedious and it's nothing new. It's probably way more frustrating for people having to listen to their boss lecture them at work about how screwed up a country they've never been to but you've lived your whole life in is. You're not in a position to just politely say "bye" and never see them ever again without any consequence. You certainly can't speak up against them because they're in a position of authority.

jhanschoo 6y ago

On one extreme, you don't know if they tend to distrust Western media while trusting Chinese state media. If it is important not to compromise your relationship with them, don't pass off any of the news as your opinion, but report about the Western reporting on the Uighurs, trying also not to signal that you trust these reports or these media outlets.

bmitc 6y ago

In a workplace environment, it is completely inappropriate. Second of all, why? What do you wish to discuss? What would you like to happen? What do these people have to do with it? If you're in the U.S., do you have anything useful to discuss regarding Guantanamo Bay and the many other U.S. black sites or the Mexican concentration camps run at the border? Do you think those are appropriate conversation pieces to bring up if they don't occur naturally? How would you feel if someone brought them up as if to teach you or make you aware of them as if you didn't know or had any affect whatsoever on their existence?

phreack 6y ago
There is a comparable situation with Americans, many people are unaware of the Tulsa massacre, and the reaction I've seen from people first hearing about it is mostly anger at it not being taught. Personally I'd be thankful to know of censored history, particularly if it is occurring and being censored right now, in a democracy.
- noja 6y ago
  Don't do that. Both are bad. The existence of one does not prevent the discussion of the other. Please do not try to derail or distract the discussion.
- ailun 6y ago
  What? I learned about the Tulsa massacre, and another similar situation that I can’t remember (maybe in Florida?), in high school. How is it being censored?
  - Kye 6y ago
    Education in the US is inconsistent because states determine what's taught. I only learned about it a few years ago. Good video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsxukOPEdgg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsxukOPEdgg
  - Grimm665 6y ago
    I grew up in what would be called a progressive part of the US and was never taught about it. I felt angry and supremely let down by our education system that I only found out about this last week.

admk 6y ago

My suggestion is that you shouldn't bother. The Chinese people would not believe the Western media narrative on Xinjiang (XJ), which also doesn't really have credible sources if look deeper into their "facts" [0]. And it is increasingly clear that the XJ narrative is a US-backed propaganda rather than factual reporting [1]. Most of us would consider the western people being brainwashed into believing whatever the media puts out about XJ, just as much as the English speaking westerners think about us. Please ponder about this: can I, as a Chinese, easily change your media-fed opinion on XJ? Yet I am trying my best here (because I procrastinate). The video shown by the BBC about the official visit to the vocational training center implants a subliminal message of "bad things are happening here" with eerie BGM and horror-movie-like filter. Your system 1, i.e. your fast, instinctive and emotional mind [2] would also be tricked by that too. Regardless of what's happening there, do you really think this is the way of objective, bias-free reporting? Personally, I do not like the way they train these people. Westerners would never understand this culturally. But when compared to the war effort instigated by the US against Islamic nations, vocational training is IMHO a much better alternative against terrorism. XJ used to have a terrorism problem, and it's now much safer. I would suggest you guys to travel in XJ after opening up, if possible, it is an incredible place to visit. If not then there are plenty of local people on youtube vlogging their daily lifes. [0]: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/status/1288269064297537537 https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/status/128826906429753753... [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/hwi7ub/i_am_sophie_richardson_china_director_at_human/fz17y2f/ https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/hwi7ub/i_am_soph... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow Source: am Chinese living in China, sitting in a coffee shop and procrastinating. Edit: typo.

coincidents 6y ago
Throwaway because yeah. What's fun is your account is four years old and you have three posts, all of which have a pro-China bias. Why are you ignoring the human rights atrocities happening in China, and why are you turfing for Xi's brutal government?
- admk 6y ago

pjc50 6y ago

More to the point, what do you want them to do about it?

abc-xyz 6y ago

I think it’s perfectly normal in companies to share news and whatnot in various group chats. We often share news related to Xinjiang, Hong Kong, the virus, BLM, Trump, etc. We don’t all share the same political views, but we’re all adults.

bzb3 6y ago

How can you not see how grossly inappropriate it is to push politics in the workplace?

auganov 6y ago

In my experience a lot of the population is very anti-Uighur and they wouldn't care that much. In the run up to this people have been conditioned by images of violent protests in the region. They have been demonized as religious fanatics. Religion in of itself is a big no-no in China. You combine that with anti-Muslim sentiment and a different ethnicity and it's pretty easy to demonize a group. To convince them you'd really have to go into details and explain just how unjust the whole ordeal is. Most pro-govt people's default assumption will be they're doing a good job taking care of bad people. Even the notion that someone of a different religion and ethnicity who might not speak the language should be rightfully considered a Chinese citizen deserving all the same freedoms is a tough sell.

MagnumOpus 6y ago
> a lot of the population is very anti-Uighur You are totally right -- it really tends to go that way when 98% of them never met a really life Uighur and the only things they hear about them are from television - i.e. from the same people who are sending the Uighurs off to the gas chambers...
throwr432345 6y ago
It’s similar to talking to Conservatives about BLM. You need to approach it from that mindset.

yadco 6y ago

If they don't have the same free speech that you do, you could be putting them in a uncomfortable/risky situation.

SkyMarshal 6y ago

Don't. There's nothing they can do about it. The CCP will disappear them if they try. Don't put them at risk by even talking to them about it. This is a problem to be handled at the diplomatic level between govts, by govts concerned about human rights abuses using various forms economic and diplomatic leverage and pressure to effect change. You can pressure your own govt to do that if want.

winxton 6y ago

It's a losing battle. Without going into workplace relationships, the public perception of the Chinese population to their government is overwhelmingly positive. I've experienced it in my own friends and relatives, even those who have gone to university in North America for degrees like law. For an outsider without cultural understanding, it's nearly impossible. It's hard to change minds when the education system doesn't support free thinking that challenges authority, when identity is caught up with national pride and the us vs them mentality. That's why it's important to use language like CCP instead of China to separate the people from the government. The most common defense is whataboutism. Talk about Uigher camps in Xingjiang or the Hong Kong protests? "But America has racism, and police beatdowns." The argument against democracy is that the people aren't educated enough to handle voting, for example and bring up covid cases in the US. I had a conversation a while back with my cousin, who didn't like Morey's (NBA GM) comments about Hong Kong and supported the Rockets ban. me: "But it's his personal opinions, can't he say what he wants?" cousin: "No, because he's a known person. It's like Xi saying California isn't a part of the US." cousin: "That's fine, because everybody knows it's not true. We'll just think he's dumb." cousin (jokingly): "that's just the cultural difference between east and west" Unfortunately, it's hard to bring up any real nuanced conversation, and especially hard to change any minds. (i.e. like how none of the HK protestors key demands were to actually separate, something many people in China thought)