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Building a solid structure is a high skill job! Not as complex as building an application but definitely comparable. I think some people fail to understand how

Building a solid structure is a high skill job! Not as complex as building an application but definitely comparable. I think some people fail to understand how hard it is to be a good contractor. Just like software engineering it requires a lot of education and a lot of experience. You won't get it right your first few tries no matter how smart you are. Just like no software developer ever got things right when they were first learning to code.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
Building one structure is a series of low skill tasks. Building many structures (or any given sub-specialty, e.g. plumbing) on a predetermined schedule and budget and making money doing it without charging so much money that you get undercut out of business is what requires skill. For N=1 you rarely have to be a pro to do it right.
- haukilup 6y ago
  You speak pretty definitively on the topic. I'm guessing you have some experience with construction that's worth sharing? Would love to hear a positive story of how it turned out!
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    I spent a few years doing under the table construction and also picked up the skills to work on mechanical things around the same time. Then I went to college, got a career and spent some money picking up the skills required to work in metal. Electrical and plumbing (not just for water) are things you kind of have to pick up along the way. I'm no means a professional at any of these skills because I don't get 40hr of practice a week. Nor am I unique. A lot of successful people from blue collar backgrounds wind up with similar skills. Even though I have software money now I couldn't afford to pay people to build the things I can build myself.
    - berdon 6y ago
      I agree with throwaway0a5e: I became a homeowner as a never-interested DIY with EE/CS degrees. We had an unfinished basement that we paid the builder to finish only the electrical, plumbing, and framing. I'd always heard drywall'ing was easy so I left that for me to do. At the time I knew nothing about lighting, fixtures, eletrical work, etc. Ended up agreeing to J-boxes for basement lights rather than cans, and a few other money-saving things (for the electrician). Before doing the drywall myself, I ended up rerunning all the basement lights, running tons of outlets, installed an electrical subpanel in my garage, new plumbing lines, etc. All inspected and approved on my own permits. I maybe watched ~200 hours on youtube (easy to do at 2x speed) and read a lot of electrical and plumbing code. But when I was done it was "done right" and not done to "save money". I ended up saving a ton of money on the electrical and plumbing, easily in the thousands, and only saved $700 on the drywall labor. Moral of the story, don't hang your own drywall by yourself. Pay for it if you can't get a couple friends to help.
      - ghaff 6y ago
        A couple of jobs a contractor I used for a long time (before he, sadly, retired) involved some drywall. He got drywall specialists to do it. He said they were far faster and cheaper than him doing it himself. I do have a guest bedroom in my house where I once had some time during a holiday shutdown when my job situation was a bit perilous. I had some crumbling plaster so I put some drywall up. It's... functional. Painting is one thing I do myself. I do it enough I got reasonably good at it and--for touchup--I can reasonably take shortcuts that someone I was paying couldn't.
      - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
        Electrical and plumbing are relatively easy compared to anything that requires accurate measuring and cutting. The latter can really kill a project if you can't get it right consistently, preferably first time. That's where the skill comes in - not just the physical labour, but the experience needed to make allowances for material tolerances and other possible gotchas. Professionals (should) have that knack, amateurs rarely will.
- evanlivingston 6y ago
  ? If you're doing that much reduction in your estimation, couldn't the same be said for software? The labor itself might be low skill, but the experience required to do the job well and to create a lasting structure takes an enormous amount of time. "should I use ceder, spruce, pine or Aztek for the exterior door casings? Should my subsill be 7 degrees or 14? Should I use felt paper or tyvek for my weather barrier, which type of tape should I use for each type?"
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    > If you're doing that much reduction in your estimation, couldn't the same be said for software? And this is why companies hire a hundred fresh grads for every gray hair. 99x/100 they don't need super high quality work output. In all trades there's a hesitation to look at something and say "screw it, it doesn't really matter, just do what's cheap" unless you're being told to and software isn't immune from that (in software "told do" seems to come mostly in the form of time pressure whereas in the trades it's what the number job is paying). Sure it's nice to do "good" high quality work but a lot of the time it really isn't necessary or it's strictly wrong because whatever it is you're building needs to be built to a price point. It's only when you push things to the limit do all the little marginal details (the stuff the experienced pros get right) start mattering. That tends to accidentally happen more (at least in my estimation) in software than the trades because labor is so expensive and code is so easily portable. Also, janky setups and quick-n-dirty fixes abound in all trades. You just only see them in trades you know about.
- markkanof 6y ago
  Not really sure why you are being downvoted. My own experience aligns with what you are describing. For most residential work a homeowner can do a solid job as long as you are handy and willing to spend a little time familiarizing yourself with building codes and the appropriate techniques. Being a professional means being able to estimate accurately, meet those estimates, manage multiple jobs, etc. If timeline isn't the most critical factor a homeowner can do an excellent job. Often even better than the professionals because you will be willing to spend extra time and attention to get everything perfect.
  - Shebanator 6y ago
    And yet there is me, having to go to Home Depot 3 times for a simple job, and still managing to mess it up.
    - grogenaut 6y ago
      not sure if you've ever watched a crew work but one of the reasons for the cheap labor junior guy is to run to home depot.
      - no-s 6y ago
        >> but one of the reasons for the cheap labor junior guy is to run to home depot. And then get the wrong stuff, which the contractor will make do anyway if there's even the remote possibly it will work. and so on. After a while and some $$$ wasted you will get a feel for what's reasonable and what's bogus.
- imtringued 6y ago
  For N=1 failure can be catastrophic.
tornato7 6y ago
Getting my house remodeled I realized that the contractors do probably 50x as much math as I do on a daily basis, and I'm the one with a math degree. Go figure.
- agumonkey 6y ago
  You did trig fights ? ps: school should make kids build more stuff, you get real use case for a lot of mathematical thinking out of cute stuff hands on.
  - blaser-waffle 6y ago
    I agree, but 1) that's expensive, and 2) more shop class means more kids accidentally nailing their hands to things. Source: my brother nailed his hand to something in middle school. He's got a Ph.D now, for the record.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

Building one structure is a series of low skill tasks. Building many structures (or any given sub-specialty, e.g. plumbing) on a predetermined schedule and budget and making money doing it without charging so much money that you get undercut out of business is what requires skill. For N=1 you rarely have to be a pro to do it right.

haukilup 6y ago
You speak pretty definitively on the topic. I'm guessing you have some experience with construction that's worth sharing? Would love to hear a positive story of how it turned out!
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  I spent a few years doing under the table construction and also picked up the skills to work on mechanical things around the same time. Then I went to college, got a career and spent some money picking up the skills required to work in metal. Electrical and plumbing (not just for water) are things you kind of have to pick up along the way. I'm no means a professional at any of these skills because I don't get 40hr of practice a week. Nor am I unique. A lot of successful people from blue collar backgrounds wind up with similar skills. Even though I have software money now I couldn't afford to pay people to build the things I can build myself.
  - berdon 6y ago
    I agree with throwaway0a5e: I became a homeowner as a never-interested DIY with EE/CS degrees. We had an unfinished basement that we paid the builder to finish only the electrical, plumbing, and framing. I'd always heard drywall'ing was easy so I left that for me to do. At the time I knew nothing about lighting, fixtures, eletrical work, etc. Ended up agreeing to J-boxes for basement lights rather than cans, and a few other money-saving things (for the electrician). Before doing the drywall myself, I ended up rerunning all the basement lights, running tons of outlets, installed an electrical subpanel in my garage, new plumbing lines, etc. All inspected and approved on my own permits. I maybe watched ~200 hours on youtube (easy to do at 2x speed) and read a lot of electrical and plumbing code. But when I was done it was "done right" and not done to "save money". I ended up saving a ton of money on the electrical and plumbing, easily in the thousands, and only saved $700 on the drywall labor. Moral of the story, don't hang your own drywall by yourself. Pay for it if you can't get a couple friends to help.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      A couple of jobs a contractor I used for a long time (before he, sadly, retired) involved some drywall. He got drywall specialists to do it. He said they were far faster and cheaper than him doing it himself. I do have a guest bedroom in my house where I once had some time during a holiday shutdown when my job situation was a bit perilous. I had some crumbling plaster so I put some drywall up. It's... functional. Painting is one thing I do myself. I do it enough I got reasonably good at it and--for touchup--I can reasonably take shortcuts that someone I was paying couldn't.
    - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
      Electrical and plumbing are relatively easy compared to anything that requires accurate measuring and cutting. The latter can really kill a project if you can't get it right consistently, preferably first time. That's where the skill comes in - not just the physical labour, but the experience needed to make allowances for material tolerances and other possible gotchas. Professionals (should) have that knack, amateurs rarely will.
evanlivingston 6y ago
? If you're doing that much reduction in your estimation, couldn't the same be said for software? The labor itself might be low skill, but the experience required to do the job well and to create a lasting structure takes an enormous amount of time. "should I use ceder, spruce, pine or Aztek for the exterior door casings? Should my subsill be 7 degrees or 14? Should I use felt paper or tyvek for my weather barrier, which type of tape should I use for each type?"
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  > If you're doing that much reduction in your estimation, couldn't the same be said for software? And this is why companies hire a hundred fresh grads for every gray hair. 99x/100 they don't need super high quality work output. In all trades there's a hesitation to look at something and say "screw it, it doesn't really matter, just do what's cheap" unless you're being told to and software isn't immune from that (in software "told do" seems to come mostly in the form of time pressure whereas in the trades it's what the number job is paying). Sure it's nice to do "good" high quality work but a lot of the time it really isn't necessary or it's strictly wrong because whatever it is you're building needs to be built to a price point. It's only when you push things to the limit do all the little marginal details (the stuff the experienced pros get right) start mattering. That tends to accidentally happen more (at least in my estimation) in software than the trades because labor is so expensive and code is so easily portable. Also, janky setups and quick-n-dirty fixes abound in all trades. You just only see them in trades you know about.
markkanof 6y ago
Not really sure why you are being downvoted. My own experience aligns with what you are describing. For most residential work a homeowner can do a solid job as long as you are handy and willing to spend a little time familiarizing yourself with building codes and the appropriate techniques. Being a professional means being able to estimate accurately, meet those estimates, manage multiple jobs, etc. If timeline isn't the most critical factor a homeowner can do an excellent job. Often even better than the professionals because you will be willing to spend extra time and attention to get everything perfect.
- Shebanator 6y ago
  And yet there is me, having to go to Home Depot 3 times for a simple job, and still managing to mess it up.
  - grogenaut 6y ago
    not sure if you've ever watched a crew work but one of the reasons for the cheap labor junior guy is to run to home depot.
    - no-s 6y ago
      >> but one of the reasons for the cheap labor junior guy is to run to home depot. And then get the wrong stuff, which the contractor will make do anyway if there's even the remote possibly it will work. and so on. After a while and some $$$ wasted you will get a feel for what's reasonable and what's bogus.
imtringued 6y ago
For N=1 failure can be catastrophic.

tornato7 6y ago

Getting my house remodeled I realized that the contractors do probably 50x as much math as I do on a daily basis, and I'm the one with a math degree. Go figure.

agumonkey 6y ago
You did trig fights ? ps: school should make kids build more stuff, you get real use case for a lot of mathematical thinking out of cute stuff hands on.
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  I agree, but 1) that's expensive, and 2) more shop class means more kids accidentally nailing their hands to things. Source: my brother nailed his hand to something in middle school. He's got a Ph.D now, for the record.