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“SSDs across the line with quadruple the storage” 1/4 TB of storage in the $1800 model, 1/2 TB in the $2300 one. Ugh. (So before the lower-end one had 64GB? [
by n3k5 6y ago
“SSDs across the line with quadruple the storage”
1/4 TB of storage in the $1800 model, 1/2 TB in the $2300 one. Ugh. (So before the lower-end one had 64GB? [Edit: Nope, 1 TB Fusion Drive, thanks smnrchrds!] That would be FULL just from installing the one game the press release mentions.)
What kind of magic fairy dust SSDs are they using that you can't have a sensible amount of storage space at those prices? Looking at the upgrade options (which aren't even available for the lower-end model), they charge $300 per TB.
- smnrchrds 6y ago> So before the lower-end one had 64GB? No, the lower end ones came with "Fusion Drive", that was 32-128 GB of SSD merged with a 1TB HDD presented as a single disk. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_Drive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_Drive
- saagarjha 6y agoThey dropped down to less than that in the middle, almost completely negating their benefit since everything something you needed would always end up on the slow spinny drive :/
- KptMarchewa 6y agoThe audacity they had selling spinning drives for personal computing in 2020.
- EricE 6y agoMeh - my Mom's iMac has the 2TB fusion drive and it works surprisingly well. When I dual boot it into bootcamp with Windows you can tell the SSD caching is not there; it's pretty obvious. Sticking a 32GB SSD (formatted NTFS) and dedicating it to readyboost helps a bit, but it's still no where near as effective as fusion under Mac OS. Obviously being pure SSD would be better, but when she got it almost five years ago that much SSD - even third party - would have been cost prohibitive and it's still pretty expensive to get 2TB as all SSD.
- simonh 6y agoI’ve been very happy with the 3TB Fusion drive in my 2014 27”, it’s hugely more performant than a bare hard drive. I’ll probably be getting a new one with a 4TB SSD, but that will make the new machine over a grand more expensive than my old machine was. These new SSDs had better be zippy.
- bayindirh 6y agoCan it be high endurance drives? My MacBook Pro has used 5% of its SSD endurance in 6 years or so? It has a 1TB SSD. I'm not filling it up, but I'm not trying to optimize the writes or something?
- jandrese 6y agoFor all of the handwringing over SSD endurance figures over the years, the fact of the matter is that normal use won't ever get close to using it up. The only people who ever really needed to worry about those figures were doing heavy data processing every day.
- bayindirh 6y agoI actually do heavy data processing but not every day. It can be hundreds of RAW images (50MB/image) or the simulation software I'm working on which can generate GBs of output in 3 seconds if I leave the wrong flags on. In my other workstation I can actually see the big jumps of write accumulation when I do these tasks via SMART (I log the data periodically). So mine was a honest question rather than covert fanboyism.
- jandrese 6y agoI'm actually impressed that you're dumping that much data regularly on Apple's notoriously undersized drives.
- bayindirh 6y agoMy other workstation is a Linux machine. I use the Mac as the portable one so, they can replace each other at any moment's notice. This is why I paid or a 1TB SSD on the Mac. I guessed that I'd wear it down faster but nope, that thing holds.
- lifeisstillgood 6y agoI would be interested in hearing more about how you log / see this - a real world case always beats benchmarks
- jjoonathan 6y agoCan you get your friendly local repair shop to solder on a bigger BGA or are they DRM'd?
- cl3misch 6y agoAre you sure the newer iMacs have soldered on storage? I was under the impression they use m.2 SSDs.
- yreg 6y agoThey don't. I wouldn't call it user replaceable, since it's difficult, but no soldering required.[0] Many vendors (including Apple premium resellers) offer replacing the drives for whatever you like. [0] iFixIt https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iMac+Intel+27-Inch+EMC+2546+Blade+SSD+Replacement/15758 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iMac+Intel+27-Inch+EMC+2546+Bla...
- jjoonathan 6y agoNice! You're right, that procedure is a bit yuck, but so it goes on macs these days.
- beervirus 6y agoNot clear if this will be possible with the 2020 model though, since it has the T2 chip.
- ebg13 6y ago> What kind of magic fairy dust SSDs are they using I don't know about magic fairy dust, but Apple's SSDs are known to be phenomenally fast in benchmarks. $300/TB is compared to $200/TB aftermarket for a high end NVMe SSD. Is that markup? Yes, but it's not 300%.
- skohan 6y agoBut it’s intel so presumably you could beat it on an AMD with PCIE gen 4 right?
- berbec 6y agoNot presumably, definately, at least in benchmarks. Max transfer rates on a current model gen4 ssd can reach upwards of 5GB/second, but top-end gen3 model is faster at other things. The Samsung 970 pro is still the fastest nvme consumer disk in almost all categories, besides max transfer rate, due to its usage of 100% mlc, instead of qlc & mlc cache.
- lm28469 6y agoWhen SSDs were the hot new thing yeah, apple had top end SSDs compared to the competition, but today... https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-SSD-AP1024-7171-Benchmarked.458652.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-SSD-AP1024-7171-Benchmar...
- tmpz22 6y agoApple uses a file system especially designed for fast file transfer speeds, and guess what benchmarks they're using to declare their SSDs superior? With newer M.2 drives like the 970 EVO or Sabrent Rocket Apple has no valid excuse for charging so damn much for storage...
- ebg13 6y ago> With newer M.2 drives like the 970 EVO or Sabrent Rocket Apple has no valid excuse for charging so damn much for storage... Can you show any other major manufacturer that includes a competitive internal drive for significantly less? Because otherwise you're comparing very different things. Dell also upcharges $300 for a 1TB NVMe SSD. "If I buy it separately and install it myself" isn't a valid market comparison. If you want to do that, then do it.
- avianlyric 6y ago> What kind of magic fairy dust SSDs are they using that you can't have a sensible amount of storage space at those prices? The kind where Apple can make a 300% or more margin, knowing that people will still pay. Don't think Apple have ever sold SSD upgrades at anything remotely resembling competitive $/TB prices. Clearly they don't need too because people still buy their machines.
- smnrchrds 6y agoThey learned their lesson and made storage, RAM, etc. non-user replaceable in newer versions. You used to be able to buy a Mac from Apple and upgrade its RAM at a reasonable price on your own. Not anymore.
- osrec 6y agoWhy do their customers tolerate this?! I know some people love Apple (their hardware does look great), but this is extremely annoying.
- rmorey 6y agoBecause it’s the only supported way to run macOS
- cpach 6y agoIt is indeed annoying and expensive. I still prefer their OS/hardware combo over anything else on the market. YMMV.
- enterprise1 6y agoBecause not everyone can be a computer nerd. Apple has put a huge amount of real effort into direct outreach and support of their customers, really. Microsoft chased business. Apple chased people. Google is chasing its own tail. For the markup over the retail price of the SSD, someone else does the installation, validation, built dumb stupid restore and backup services to boot. Dell? Lenovo? Microsoft? Still ramming bloatware down your throat and persona non grata in malls or shopping centers, or wherever a digital nomad might be roaming. Apple built a hardware and software ecosystem for normies. Free from the Machiavellian incantations of pretentious experts with their opinions on memory layouts, how big their data is, when people just want to edit and backup files. People think the markup is worth it to avoid IT people. Can’t say I blame them. Have you worked with the “professional” level IT crowd? Alpha bro sausage fest and foot fungus eaters. That’s why people pay the markup.
- zitterbewegung 6y agoSchools need Macs at that price point or they can’t buy them .
- kevin_thibedeau 6y agoSchools need Macs?
- duxup 6y agoWhat do you mean by that?
- saagarjha 6y agoSchools like buying Macs, and they don't particularly care about performance. The low-end iMac has always been a top seller to lower education because a kid isn't going to complain that their computer takes four minutes to boot.
- duxup 6y agoThat doesn't explain "Schools need Macs at that price point or they can’t buy them ."
- saagarjha 6y agoI'm not sure what kind of explanation you're looking for beyond "more expensive Macs will not be bought".
- duxup 6y agoMaybe I misread the comment but it was a response to someone noting how expensive they were... so I read it as saying that they're supposed to be that expensive so schools would buy that. That seemed odd.
- chipotle_coyote 6y agoSchools have historically liked buying Macs; I'm not sure how true that is anymore. Chromebooks have swept the schools, both because they're very cheap and because Google has, from what I've read, just terrific classroom management software compared to most competitors. More recently Apple has been pushing the iPad into education pretty hard -- competition from the Chromebook is arguably why the $329 iPad ($299 for education) exists. Macs are increasingly positioned as being for teachers and administrators, not students.
- skohan 6y agoIt seems crazy. I bought a 2TB M.2 PCIE gen 3 drive not too long ago for 200 EUR. These drives are so tiny now they could easy offer an expansion slot which is accessible to the user, like the PS5 will. I miss the early-2000s era Apple who would actually do something like that.
- wlesieutre 6y agoAt least Thunderbolt gives a theoretical 40 Gbps expansion option, if not as clean as having it built-in would be. $100-$150 for an enclosure, so that's still going to be cheaper than Apple's markup.
- sixothree 6y agoI wish there was a consumer level standard for NVME drives caddies like the ones that are emerging for servers. Like this but for consumers. https://www.anandtech.com/show/11702/intel-introduces-new-ruler-ssd-for-servers https://www.anandtech.com/show/11702/intel-introduces-new-ru...
- shocks 6y agoApple’s pricing makes sense when you realise they’re just a consumer electronics company masquerading as a luxury brand. Most people can afford to buy an iPhone of some kind. $1000 monitor stands and expensive iMacs is what makes their brand seem luxury.
- saagarjha 6y agoYeah, iMacs don't really help there.
- mberning 6y agoYeah, entry level should be a 512GB SSD and 16GB of RAM for any "premium" desktop in 2020. I'm sure some bean counter at Apple has calculated that arranging the options in this way makes more money for Apple per unit, but I can't tell you how many times I have looked at an iMac or Mac Mini and thought "that's a pretty good price", then add the correct amount of memory and disk capacity and noped right out of their website.
- hn_check 6y agoHN clearly isn't the target market. When HN frets about how it isn't suitable for them, it's just a lot of meaningless bluster and noise. Though let's be real here. I have a 2018 MBP with 256GB of storage. I have XCode, the XCode beta, Logic Pro, virtually the entire Adobe gamut of software, brew and a massive selection of brew packages, every browser, IntelliJ, GoLand, and just a tonne of crap. I've used about 150GB. As fair disclosure I have a USB 3 1TB 970 Pro in an enclosure that I use for the occasional massive file download, purely because I'm paranoid about flash exhaustion, though by the system metrics I'm still at less than 1% wear. Yeah, someone buying this for their kid to do their homework is going to be completely fine with 256GB. Though it's worth noting that the next option is just $200 more and gives you a faster process and 512GB. The lowest end one is just the one to frame the value, and presumably isn't their recommendation.
- okennedy 6y agoI agree that Apple has focused its attention exclusively on the consumer market... and that's a problem. Developers write code for platforms that they're using. This is what drove adoption of Apple hardware in the early 2ks (a POSIX that runs MS Office!), which in turn set set the stage for the iPhone and iOS. Unlike then, Apple now has a good grip on the consumer market: Not targetting iOS with a mobile/tablet release is a bad idea, regardless of whether or not devs are familiar with it. But OSX? There are a few areas where it's still has strong devotees: Color management in OSX is still fantastic, creating a lot of loyalty among artists, photographers, etc... It's still technically a POSIX, so it's still attractive to developers. In short, OSX is not targetted at consumers. When someone needs a "computer" for their kid to do their homework, that's increasingly going to be an Android/iOS device. For a platform to survive, it needs a healthy developer community. A developer community needs incentives (e.g., market-share or devs already using the platform). Right now, what are the incentives for OSX devs?
- hn_check 6y agoNot entirely sure if you intended to reply to my comment, however just to clarify I'm saying that this particular machine isn't for developers or hackers. Apple has different machines for different markets. Developers buy MBPs. Industry users buy iMac Pros (which starts at 32GB RAM and 1TB SSD, going up from there) or even the goofy Mac Pro. "When someone needs a "computer" for their kid to do their homework, that's increasingly going to be an Android/iOS device." Lots of people do the vast majority of their "computing" on pads and smartphones, but they still like a computer on the desk for..."productivity". For many of those people, this device is more than adequate.
- alkonaut 6y agoDon’t buy a desktop computer with non-user replaceable/upgradeable disks. In an air form factor I can buy the argument that it saves 50 grams or one mm of thickness. In a desktop it’s just ridiculous. Having any other standard than 2.5” or nvme is silly, and ideally a desktop even in the iMac form factor should have at least one empty 2.5” slot.
- nolok 6y agoI don(t disagree but really a 1 TB nvme ssd is around 100e now, there is no reason for this kind of storage limits.
- ben-schaaf 6y agoThere's a great reason for it: profit! Apple knows their customers will pay because they don't have a choice - their computers are bought for them or their software only runs on macOS.
- rconti 6y agoYup. I've had my 2015 5k iMac apart a couple of times, and it's not for the faint of heart. Screen is glued on, takes a few hours, and for certain tasks the entire computer has to be taken apart. Nothing like the drive swap on my mom's ancient 2008ish (?) iMac where you just suction cup the screen off and the drive is right there. I accidentally ordered the 'wrong' iMac (256gb SSD) which turned out to be the right option because the fusion drives seem to have issues. Had a 2TB SSD hanging off the back for the past 6 months until i finally went to install it internally. Sadly, if you didn't order your machine with a SATA drive, it doesn't have a SATA Cable -- hence having to disassemble the entire thing to get to the plug on the logic board that lets you add a drive.
- outworlder 6y agoApple SSDs have been historically leaps and bounds ahead of the competition. Apple started using SSDs driven by PCIe while consumers were all using SATA. Jacking up the price was justified. Not anymore. Fast NVME drives are commonplace. Unless these drives are again significantly faster than the competition, which I doubt, that's just Apple doing their thing and not adjusting fast enough.
- FireBeyond 6y agoMaybe. Also part of the RDF. I've met many Apple people who seem to believe that even today, high end Dell laptops etc. are all still SATA. Apple's drives are no longer faster. They're fast. But high end PC drives are just as fast (and usually 1/3 the price).
- gumby 6y agoApart from the margin argument advanced in the comments (which I agree with) this TB3 machine can be upgraded with an external drive directly attached to the PCIe bus (that TB3 interface is faster than your disk Last time I checked so supposedly no performance issue). You may not find this adequate (actually, I don’t like it either) but it’s not an unreasonable position to take. Having worked in the hw biz not only do memory sockets add to BOM, they reduce reliability (statistically — not on any one machine, but over your installed base)
- satya71 6y agoThe only constraint of price is that must be greater than cost. After that price is determined by what the customer is willing to pay based on the value they receive.
- ogre_codes 6y ago> 1/2 TB in the $2300 one It's $2k for the 27" with 500GB. How much is it to get a really good quality 5k display with a Dell? > What kind of magic fairy dust SSDs are they using that you can't have a sensible amount of storage space at those prices? I'm using 165GB of 500GB on my current system. Considering all the systems issued by work are configured the same and nobody complains about space issues, I don't think it's a big problem. I'd take the 5k display over 1TB storage any time. Sadly my work issues laptops and not iMacs.
- caycep 6y agoI realize that games these days are full of high detail world-building, but I shudder to think that 250-500 gb for an install is considered commonplace these days...
- wdb 6y agoIt's odd that you can't increase the storage for the £1799 / $2300 model. I don't think 256GB SSD is enough these days. Personally, I am always inclined to buy my Apple products when travelling as most times it's a lot cheaper in the US or Singapore. I mean $2300 (incl. VAT) vs $1799+1.08=$1945 $350 cheaper.