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Why all the hoops? Companies have shamed us into thinking sharing salaries is bad. It's not. People should share freely, in my opinion it benefits all partie

by axaxs 6y ago

Why all the hoops? Companies have shamed us into thinking sharing salaries is bad. It's not. People should share freely, in my opinion it benefits all parties except the company.

pjmlp 6y ago
I also don't get it, here in many European countries that is very easy to know and we don't make such a big deal out of it. Public servants have a progression table, so by knowing their level, you know the salary. Companies either have an union agreement, so it goes back to the same level agreements, or they have internal evaluation with salary matrix, so again by knowing department and skill level, it is relatively easy to get the salary value, minus possible bonus. They are even part of some job offer descriptions. So at the end of the day it is hard to grasp why it is so sacred to discuss it on US.
- Leherenn 6y ago
  Progression tables are just age discrimination though usually. I've seen it a few times, people with 30+ years of experience being paid massively more than newcomers, and just waiting for retirement. There's absolutely no point to do more than the bare minimum not to be fired in this situation (and if it's a government job, then it's pretty much impossible depending on the place), and it absolutely shows.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    And? Most of the times those newcomers are full of ideas trying to reboot everything without spending one second to understand why things are the way they are. I also have many seen people waiting for retirement on the private sector.
    - Leherenn 6y ago
      Do you think it's fair that people that do twice the work are paid half as much just because they're younger? In the case I know (nurses), it's about a nurse taking care of twice as many patients, and usually better. Not trying to change things, just doing their job. What I can tell you is that those people doing more either quit or just give up and stop caring. For what is worth my experience is mainly with the private sector. It's just that usually they are a bit more willing to sack people.
rosywoozlechan 6y ago
It doesn't benefit top earners to share salary information. If I'm making more money than everyone else and the consequences of sharing salaries is equity than it is in my rational self-interest to keep my salary hidden because I'm unlikely to get any kind of raise until equity is achieved whereas I may continue to get raises otherwise. You know what those top earners are going to do then? Quit. And then you end up with overpaid mediocre talent and a product roadmap that is suffering from the loss of top performers. The more we celebrate victimhood as some kind of hero status, the more we shame and punish those who achieve and create success the worse off we're all going to be. A private company has every right to compensate its employees with its private capital anyway it wants, and they're going to want to do it in a way that achieves the goals of the business. They're not distributing welfare checks, they're a business.
- wwright 6y ago
  This argument is predicated on value creation being the primary determining factor in salary, and I think that’s probably worth a second thought
- intended 6y ago
  Sadly your pay has little to do with merit, and more to do with perception, connections, face time and ability to handle office issues better than your cohort. It may well be, if not more likely to be, the other way round - you could be a GOOD performer, but since you can't or don't gork office politics, you are underpaid or even not at the level of challenge and seniority you should be.
  - caymanjim 6y ago
    > Sadly your pay has little to do with merit, and more to do with perception, connections, face time and ability to handle office issues better than your cohort. These are merits. They mean you're easy to work with, people want to work with you, you know how to make and maintain important relationships. You'd make a good leader. You can recruit talented people. You can get preferential treatment from vendors. Your projects get noticed. If you can't play this game, it doesn't matter if your technical skills are better. You won't have a chance to put them into practice. You won't have allies. No one will want to work with you or listen to your opinions.
wwright 6y ago
In aggregate yes, but many individuals still have perfectly valid reasons for not wanting to share their salaries locally. No one should _have_ to share that info in most roles (important leadership and financial roles notwithstanding), but no one should ever be discouraged from sharing it either.

by axaxs 6y ago

Why all the hoops? Companies have shamed us into thinking sharing salaries is bad. It's not. People should share freely, in my opinion it benefits all parties except the company.

pjmlp 6y ago

I also don't get it, here in many European countries that is very easy to know and we don't make such a big deal out of it. Public servants have a progression table, so by knowing their level, you know the salary. Companies either have an union agreement, so it goes back to the same level agreements, or they have internal evaluation with salary matrix, so again by knowing department and skill level, it is relatively easy to get the salary value, minus possible bonus. They are even part of some job offer descriptions. So at the end of the day it is hard to grasp why it is so sacred to discuss it on US.

Leherenn 6y ago
Progression tables are just age discrimination though usually. I've seen it a few times, people with 30+ years of experience being paid massively more than newcomers, and just waiting for retirement. There's absolutely no point to do more than the bare minimum not to be fired in this situation (and if it's a government job, then it's pretty much impossible depending on the place), and it absolutely shows.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  And? Most of the times those newcomers are full of ideas trying to reboot everything without spending one second to understand why things are the way they are. I also have many seen people waiting for retirement on the private sector.
  - Leherenn 6y ago
    Do you think it's fair that people that do twice the work are paid half as much just because they're younger? In the case I know (nurses), it's about a nurse taking care of twice as many patients, and usually better. Not trying to change things, just doing their job. What I can tell you is that those people doing more either quit or just give up and stop caring. For what is worth my experience is mainly with the private sector. It's just that usually they are a bit more willing to sack people.

rosywoozlechan 6y ago

It doesn't benefit top earners to share salary information. If I'm making more money than everyone else and the consequences of sharing salaries is equity than it is in my rational self-interest to keep my salary hidden because I'm unlikely to get any kind of raise until equity is achieved whereas I may continue to get raises otherwise. You know what those top earners are going to do then? Quit. And then you end up with overpaid mediocre talent and a product roadmap that is suffering from the loss of top performers. The more we celebrate victimhood as some kind of hero status, the more we shame and punish those who achieve and create success the worse off we're all going to be. A private company has every right to compensate its employees with its private capital anyway it wants, and they're going to want to do it in a way that achieves the goals of the business. They're not distributing welfare checks, they're a business.

wwright 6y ago
This argument is predicated on value creation being the primary determining factor in salary, and I think that’s probably worth a second thought
intended 6y ago
Sadly your pay has little to do with merit, and more to do with perception, connections, face time and ability to handle office issues better than your cohort. It may well be, if not more likely to be, the other way round - you could be a GOOD performer, but since you can't or don't gork office politics, you are underpaid or even not at the level of challenge and seniority you should be.
- caymanjim 6y ago
  > Sadly your pay has little to do with merit, and more to do with perception, connections, face time and ability to handle office issues better than your cohort. These are merits. They mean you're easy to work with, people want to work with you, you know how to make and maintain important relationships. You'd make a good leader. You can recruit talented people. You can get preferential treatment from vendors. Your projects get noticed. If you can't play this game, it doesn't matter if your technical skills are better. You won't have a chance to put them into practice. You won't have allies. No one will want to work with you or listen to your opinions.

wwright 6y ago

In aggregate yes, but many individuals still have perfectly valid reasons for not wanting to share their salaries locally. No one should _have_ to share that info in most roles (important leadership and financial roles notwithstanding), but no one should ever be discouraged from sharing it either.