6 ms·

I strongly disagree with Sowell on almost every topic one can think of, either in terms of philosophy, society, or economics, but I admire his outspokenness and

I strongly disagree with Sowell on almost every topic one can think of, either in terms of philosophy, society, or economics, but I admire his outspokenness and plain speaking, as the article notes he is known for, and it's a shame to read ad-hominem style attacks have been made against him. From what I can gather, however, the academic literature engages better with his arguments than journalists do.

vixen99 6y ago
Be interesting to see where you think he's wrong especially where his arguments are based on some uncompromising statistical facts.
- claudiawerner 6y ago
  It's not that I disagree with his use of statistics, but my own philosophical framework (particularly inspired by the ideas of J.E. Roemer, Gerry Cohen, Nitzan & Bichler, and more recently Roberto Veneziani) sees serious problems (I think exploitation, domination, alienation, and insufficient focus on capabilities qua equality of opportunity) with not only capital in general but the state too. I can't easily recall the statistics or framework he used, though the disagreement between our frameworks of society (such as methodological individualism) was what stood out to me. I recall Pikkety making a more convincing case on the economic side, and Frederic Lordon making a more convincing case on the philosophical side. I also disagree with Sowell on his position on sweatshops (again, not rejecting the principle on which it is made, which is that the workers would not be employed otherwise, or have lower wages from domestic companies, but rather a disagreement on the reach and justification of that argument).
  - googthrowaway42 6y ago
    For what it's worth, Thomas Sowell was a Marxist up until he did a summer internship at the US Department of Labor. Excerpt from interview where he talks about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6PDpCnMvvw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6PDpCnMvvw
    - claudiawerner 6y ago
      I know that; I think his book on Marx(ism), from the parts I've read, is actually one of the better ones written by mainstream economists, but that's quite a low bar. There are some good criticisms of it floating around on the 'net.
      - googthrowaway42 6y ago
        The best criticism of Marxism I've read is in the introduction to Human Action by Mises where he shows that the concept of class struggle, specifically class itself, is illogical. Also FWIW I have been upvoting you as you get downvoted.
        claudiawerner 6y ago
        Rothbard (and later Mises) are both on my reading list, I'm nothing if not open-minded. Thanks.
        googthrowaway42 6y ago
        Personally I would recommend starting with Human Action by Mises as it represents essentially the purest distillation of that school of thought and the culmination of a lot of Mises' earlier works. Rothbard studied under Mises so it would serve as a good introduction to him as well.
        Consultant32452 6y ago
        I highly recommend Rothbard's Anatomy of the State as an excellent starting place. It's really short, practically a pamphlet.
        SiFiPi 6y ago
        At the end of the day, when it comes to Ludwig von Mises, it's a question of whether or not you believe humans have free will. If you've studied long enough to become a neurologist, you find that free will is laughable.
  - brodouevencode 6y ago
    The one place where I align with the Piketty-neo-Marxist crowd is that economic ignorance leads to some terrible, terrible public policy. I daresay Sowell believes the same. But it ends there.
  - ergodicity001 6y ago
    What do you think of Nassim Nicholas Taleb's claim that Piketty basically has his math all wrong? https://medium.com/incerto/inequality-and-skin-in-the-game-d8f00bc0cb46 https://medium.com/incerto/inequality-and-skin-in-the-game-d... >>with not only capital in general but the state too Why should capital in general be a problem? Isn't it crony capitalism the actual problem? If you are very rich, that isn't usually a problem to your neighbor. But if you are very rich and can thus get away with tax evasion but your neighbor lands in jail for the same reason, isn't that when it actually becomes a problem?
    - claudiawerner 6y ago
      I haven't read Taleb's response; I might, though Pikkety is less my focus, because I think he spends a lot of time arguing for the system, but continuing along the line of reducing inequality, rather than questioning the system itself. I see capital as a problem precisely not as a matter of quantity (one person having more than another), but as a matter of quality. While 'crony capitalism' is obviously a problem, I don't think it's the root of the problem, philosophically speaking. I'd still think that a system in which a rich person can't get away with tax evasion has serious problems. This is where I likely diverge from, say, Warren's or even Sanders' platform (speaking as someone not from the US). I think deep issues (exploitation, domination, and alienation) deserve a look, even if they seem to be an alien perspective from the outset.
- Eleopteryx 6y ago
  His argument that Donald Trump would be a better choice for President than Hillary Clinton because the former would be easier to remove from office than the latter, arguing specifically that "congressional Republicans would [not] automatically spring to his defense, if he overstepped the line". Doesn't seem like a great example of keen political judgment in hindsight.
  - haolez 6y ago
    That's probably true, since Hilary's campaign cost 3 times more than Trump's campaign. In the end, both sides are there to defend their interests, and not yours.
    - djsumdog 6y ago
      I made this back in 2016, about voting and that famous paper that talks about how the opinions of voters are really only expressed for the top 10% of income earners in the US: https://battlepenguin.video/videos/watch/99a2d4b3-cfe6-4a77-9695-c70c64e4a163 https://battlepenguin.video/videos/watch/99a2d4b3-cfe6-4a77-... and few months later I followed it up about the outrage and anger that was being poured out: https://battlepenguin.com/politics/the-fallout-of-american-anger/ https://battlepenguin.com/politics/the-fallout-of-american-a... We're still in the shadow of that outrage, and it's directed at the puppets and not the Fortune 500 execs that are pulling the strings.
  - derision 6y ago
    I've seen numerous examples of congressional Republicans not automatically springing to his defense
    - Eleopteryx 6y ago
      "Numerous examples" is fantastic but what he said was a generalization and as a generalization it holds up. What % of congressional Republicans would you estimate "did not automatically spring to his defense"?
    - MisterBastahrd 6y ago
- schemy 6y ago
  There is nothing simpler than misusing statistics. The right wing does it all the time. 53% of all prisoners are black, ergo blacks are criminals. Homosexuals represent 70% of all HIV infections, ergo homosexuality is inherently risky and should be treated the same way as hard drugs. Now Thomas Sowell doesn't say any of those things himself. His points are much more interesting ... to people who have been only exposed to the liberal side of the story for their whole lives. To someone who has read the original red in tooth and claw conservative talking points from the 80s his books are just a rear guard action and a not very interesting one at that. Which is why the success of Thomas Sowell with people who have gone to university and then exposed to the real world is entirely the fault of the people who cancelled racism/sexism in the 80s/90s and are trying to do it again today.
  - IanDrake 6y ago
    You're projecting your bias into the causation. Most conservatives I know understand that disproportionate black crime has nothing to do with race and everything to do with disproportionately adopted negative value systems in the black community. Specifically, fatherless homes and lack of appreciation for education. These variables have the same impact on people of all races. Unfortunately, instead of correcting the problem, movements like BLM think the idea of two parent families needs to be "disrupted".
    - diffrinse 6y ago
      > lack of appreciation for education Have you ever been to a Black public school, like actually attended one as a student? I promise you the #1 problem isn't lack of appreciation for education. >fatherless homes Except this actually has a pretty pinpoint time when it began to cultivate and it overlaps with the War on Drugs and the stagnation of Black middle class growth in the 80s. The modern situation is accumulation of these effects, not their cause.
      - 323454 6y ago
        The rate of non-marital births steadily increased for Blacks and Whites from 1950-1995 (although Blacks did start from a higher baseline). From 1995 until now it has mostly levelled off. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_National_Action#/media/File%3ANonmarital_Birth_Rates_in_the_United_States%2C_1940-2014.png https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_F...

vixen99 6y ago

Be interesting to see where you think he's wrong especially where his arguments are based on some uncompromising statistical facts.

claudiawerner 6y ago
It's not that I disagree with his use of statistics, but my own philosophical framework (particularly inspired by the ideas of J.E. Roemer, Gerry Cohen, Nitzan & Bichler, and more recently Roberto Veneziani) sees serious problems (I think exploitation, domination, alienation, and insufficient focus on capabilities qua equality of opportunity) with not only capital in general but the state too. I can't easily recall the statistics or framework he used, though the disagreement between our frameworks of society (such as methodological individualism) was what stood out to me. I recall Pikkety making a more convincing case on the economic side, and Frederic Lordon making a more convincing case on the philosophical side. I also disagree with Sowell on his position on sweatshops (again, not rejecting the principle on which it is made, which is that the workers would not be employed otherwise, or have lower wages from domestic companies, but rather a disagreement on the reach and justification of that argument).
- googthrowaway42 6y ago
  For what it's worth, Thomas Sowell was a Marxist up until he did a summer internship at the US Department of Labor. Excerpt from interview where he talks about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6PDpCnMvvw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6PDpCnMvvw
  - claudiawerner 6y ago
    I know that; I think his book on Marx(ism), from the parts I've read, is actually one of the better ones written by mainstream economists, but that's quite a low bar. There are some good criticisms of it floating around on the 'net.
    - googthrowaway42 6y ago
      The best criticism of Marxism I've read is in the introduction to Human Action by Mises where he shows that the concept of class struggle, specifically class itself, is illogical. Also FWIW I have been upvoting you as you get downvoted.
      - claudiawerner 6y ago
        Rothbard (and later Mises) are both on my reading list, I'm nothing if not open-minded. Thanks.
        googthrowaway42 6y ago
        Personally I would recommend starting with Human Action by Mises as it represents essentially the purest distillation of that school of thought and the culmination of a lot of Mises' earlier works. Rothbard studied under Mises so it would serve as a good introduction to him as well.
        Consultant32452 6y ago
        I highly recommend Rothbard's Anatomy of the State as an excellent starting place. It's really short, practically a pamphlet.
        SiFiPi 6y ago
        At the end of the day, when it comes to Ludwig von Mises, it's a question of whether or not you believe humans have free will. If you've studied long enough to become a neurologist, you find that free will is laughable.
- brodouevencode 6y ago
  The one place where I align with the Piketty-neo-Marxist crowd is that economic ignorance leads to some terrible, terrible public policy. I daresay Sowell believes the same. But it ends there.
- ergodicity001 6y ago
  What do you think of Nassim Nicholas Taleb's claim that Piketty basically has his math all wrong? https://medium.com/incerto/inequality-and-skin-in-the-game-d8f00bc0cb46 https://medium.com/incerto/inequality-and-skin-in-the-game-d... >>with not only capital in general but the state too Why should capital in general be a problem? Isn't it crony capitalism the actual problem? If you are very rich, that isn't usually a problem to your neighbor. But if you are very rich and can thus get away with tax evasion but your neighbor lands in jail for the same reason, isn't that when it actually becomes a problem?
  - claudiawerner 6y ago
    I haven't read Taleb's response; I might, though Pikkety is less my focus, because I think he spends a lot of time arguing for the system, but continuing along the line of reducing inequality, rather than questioning the system itself. I see capital as a problem precisely not as a matter of quantity (one person having more than another), but as a matter of quality. While 'crony capitalism' is obviously a problem, I don't think it's the root of the problem, philosophically speaking. I'd still think that a system in which a rich person can't get away with tax evasion has serious problems. This is where I likely diverge from, say, Warren's or even Sanders' platform (speaking as someone not from the US). I think deep issues (exploitation, domination, and alienation) deserve a look, even if they seem to be an alien perspective from the outset.
Eleopteryx 6y ago
His argument that Donald Trump would be a better choice for President than Hillary Clinton because the former would be easier to remove from office than the latter, arguing specifically that "congressional Republicans would [not] automatically spring to his defense, if he overstepped the line". Doesn't seem like a great example of keen political judgment in hindsight.
- haolez 6y ago
  That's probably true, since Hilary's campaign cost 3 times more than Trump's campaign. In the end, both sides are there to defend their interests, and not yours.
  - djsumdog 6y ago
    I made this back in 2016, about voting and that famous paper that talks about how the opinions of voters are really only expressed for the top 10% of income earners in the US: https://battlepenguin.video/videos/watch/99a2d4b3-cfe6-4a77-9695-c70c64e4a163 https://battlepenguin.video/videos/watch/99a2d4b3-cfe6-4a77-... and few months later I followed it up about the outrage and anger that was being poured out: https://battlepenguin.com/politics/the-fallout-of-american-anger/ https://battlepenguin.com/politics/the-fallout-of-american-a... We're still in the shadow of that outrage, and it's directed at the puppets and not the Fortune 500 execs that are pulling the strings.
- derision 6y ago
  I've seen numerous examples of congressional Republicans not automatically springing to his defense
  - Eleopteryx 6y ago
    "Numerous examples" is fantastic but what he said was a generalization and as a generalization it holds up. What % of congressional Republicans would you estimate "did not automatically spring to his defense"?
  - MisterBastahrd 6y ago
schemy 6y ago
There is nothing simpler than misusing statistics. The right wing does it all the time. 53% of all prisoners are black, ergo blacks are criminals. Homosexuals represent 70% of all HIV infections, ergo homosexuality is inherently risky and should be treated the same way as hard drugs. Now Thomas Sowell doesn't say any of those things himself. His points are much more interesting ... to people who have been only exposed to the liberal side of the story for their whole lives. To someone who has read the original red in tooth and claw conservative talking points from the 80s his books are just a rear guard action and a not very interesting one at that. Which is why the success of Thomas Sowell with people who have gone to university and then exposed to the real world is entirely the fault of the people who cancelled racism/sexism in the 80s/90s and are trying to do it again today.
- IanDrake 6y ago
  You're projecting your bias into the causation. Most conservatives I know understand that disproportionate black crime has nothing to do with race and everything to do with disproportionately adopted negative value systems in the black community. Specifically, fatherless homes and lack of appreciation for education. These variables have the same impact on people of all races. Unfortunately, instead of correcting the problem, movements like BLM think the idea of two parent families needs to be "disrupted".
  - diffrinse 6y ago
    > lack of appreciation for education Have you ever been to a Black public school, like actually attended one as a student? I promise you the #1 problem isn't lack of appreciation for education. >fatherless homes Except this actually has a pretty pinpoint time when it began to cultivate and it overlaps with the War on Drugs and the stagnation of Black middle class growth in the 80s. The modern situation is accumulation of these effects, not their cause.
    - 323454 6y ago
      The rate of non-marital births steadily increased for Blacks and Whites from 1950-1995 (although Blacks did start from a higher baseline). From 1995 until now it has mostly levelled off. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_National_Action#/media/File%3ANonmarital_Birth_Rates_in_the_United_States%2C_1940-2014.png https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_F...