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It's no better example of the us and China ideology conflicts at play right now... Both sides believed the other cheated bullied and unfairly gained from thems

It's no better example of the us and China ideology conflicts at play right now... Both sides believed the other cheated bullied and unfairly gained from themselves...

FooBarWidget 6y ago
Almost. China believes US is the bully, but I've never heard of anybody believing the US unfairly gained.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Can you recommend any sources (selfishly I'll say preferably in a european language) for relatively mainstream chinese viewpoints? One might hope HN would provide a non-siloed venue including (one would guess, self-selecting for relatively pro-western) chinese geeks, but as far as I've seen, those who openly identify as such are discouraged.
  - fiblye 6y ago
    This sounds crazy, but /r/sino on reddit is pretty much as close as you'll get to mainstream Chinese political thought in English. There's a very good chance many of the people there are legitimate shills for the government, but I mean, those are the state-sponsored and permitted opinions that they're presenting. People going against the grain either don't talk or get silenced. From an American perspective, the stuff said there is absolutely bizarre and contradictory to virtually every talking point you'll hear from everybody else, but it aligns very closely with what people I know who live in China/still have strong ties to China say. Expect lots of cherry picked data and extreme reaching just to prove a point. Though to be frank, that's politics everywhere. If you're frequently caught up in American/European politics, a few minutes of reading discussions there might frustrate you, but it'll also make you think because the viewpoints are so contrary to what most Westerners regard as the norm.
    - haecceity 6y ago
      It does sound crazy but that's mainly because it'd be crazy for mainstream Chinese opinions to be discussed in English. Maybe r/china.
      - fiblye 6y ago
        /r/china is exclusively western expats. They're the opposite of what mainstream Chinese thought is. And based off what I see on the actual Chinese net in Chinese, /r/sino stays completely in line with the common consensus.
        FooBarWidget 6y ago
        I sure hope actual Chinese netizens aren't as polarized as the guys on /r/sino. We need the east and the west to come together, and not merely to contend on who can be the biggest bully.
        imtringued 6y ago
        I don't think the people with controversial opinions voice them publicly.
        082349872349872 6y ago
        At the moment, I'm not sure if /r/sino is any more serious than /r/aeiou. We truly live in a Poe's Law world. (And I leave it to the argies and the austrians to fight over who makes the best milanesa/schnitzel. But it does sound like it may be what I was looking for, in terms of non-hanzi-expressed general opinions which, however outlandish they may sound on HN, would be unremarkable on 新浪微博.)
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      I would not recommend /r/sino if you're looking for good discussions. It's an echo chamber. Most of the guys there are blindly pro-China, blindly anti-American. For better discussions and analysis, check my recommendations here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24035638 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24035638
  - tim333 6y ago
    Mainstream chinese views are probably going to be tricky as China is rather dominated by it's dictatorial leader who I think is still a fan of Mao. The new yorker had quite a good article on him https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/04/06/born-red https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/04/06/born-red The Chinese not under the CCP dictatorship in places like Taiwan, Singapore or the US mostly seem hard working democratic and easy going.
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      Everything you read, by anyone, whether it's from a Chinese or a western source, is propaganda in one way or another. But maybe by reading Chinese sources, and seeing how different they are, will make us think more critically, and make us more immune to the propaganda we are fed at home.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    Try Tom Fowdy, Carl Zha, and Jerry Grey (@Jerry_grey2002) on Twitter; Daniel Dumbrill, Nathan Rich, and China Teacher Brand on Youtube. All of these lean more towards pro-China, but they're nowhere near as crazy and blindly pro-China as the /r/sino guys, and they analyze situations pretty well. All of these are open for debate, whereas on /r/sino you get banned if you're not showing absolutely loyalty (speaking from experience). Jerry has an excellent blog too. The funny thing is, he never intended to talk about politics, but all the bad news on China since COVID-19 frustrated him so much that he began writing. https://medium.com/@jerry_grey2002 https://medium.com/@jerry_grey2002 If you wanna discuss things, feel free to seek me out.
- justicezyx 6y ago
  Why do you believe that? People constantly complained US corps extracted too much profit, and get too much recession from the government. The government recession part is less noticeable, because Chinese people are not informed anyway. Like TESLA's shanghai factories. It's common that people complained "I can be as successful as Elon, if I got the same support from the government"...
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    This is literally the first time I've heard of those complaints. I'm not American. I don't hang around in the same circles as you.
- Thorrez 6y ago
  This book was recommended to me by a Chinese colleague: https://www.amazon.com/American-Trap-Americas-economic-against/dp/1529326869 https://www.amazon.com/American-Trap-Americas-economic-again... It seems to me to be saying the US unfairly gained.
rbecker 6y ago
You're mistaking the tools of the conflict for its cause. The conflict arose because the US finally realized China is a threat (as China knew the US was all along). Which one plays more unfairly is just a tool in propaganda efforts of each side to draw people and countries to its cause. Which is not to say there's no moral difference between the two, just that it's mostly unrelated to the cause of the conflict. In other words, you won't convince the US to allow themselves to become more vulnerable to China, by pointing out their sins in South America. Similar holds for China.

It's no better example of the us and China ideology conflicts at play right now... Both sides believed the other cheated bullied and unfairly gained from themselves...

FooBarWidget 6y ago

Almost. China believes US is the bully, but I've never heard of anybody believing the US unfairly gained.

082349872349872 6y ago
Can you recommend any sources (selfishly I'll say preferably in a european language) for relatively mainstream chinese viewpoints? One might hope HN would provide a non-siloed venue including (one would guess, self-selecting for relatively pro-western) chinese geeks, but as far as I've seen, those who openly identify as such are discouraged.
- fiblye 6y ago
  This sounds crazy, but /r/sino on reddit is pretty much as close as you'll get to mainstream Chinese political thought in English. There's a very good chance many of the people there are legitimate shills for the government, but I mean, those are the state-sponsored and permitted opinions that they're presenting. People going against the grain either don't talk or get silenced. From an American perspective, the stuff said there is absolutely bizarre and contradictory to virtually every talking point you'll hear from everybody else, but it aligns very closely with what people I know who live in China/still have strong ties to China say. Expect lots of cherry picked data and extreme reaching just to prove a point. Though to be frank, that's politics everywhere. If you're frequently caught up in American/European politics, a few minutes of reading discussions there might frustrate you, but it'll also make you think because the viewpoints are so contrary to what most Westerners regard as the norm.
  - haecceity 6y ago
    It does sound crazy but that's mainly because it'd be crazy for mainstream Chinese opinions to be discussed in English. Maybe r/china.
    - fiblye 6y ago
      /r/china is exclusively western expats. They're the opposite of what mainstream Chinese thought is. And based off what I see on the actual Chinese net in Chinese, /r/sino stays completely in line with the common consensus.
      - FooBarWidget 6y ago
        I sure hope actual Chinese netizens aren't as polarized as the guys on /r/sino. We need the east and the west to come together, and not merely to contend on who can be the biggest bully.
        imtringued 6y ago
        I don't think the people with controversial opinions voice them publicly.
        082349872349872 6y ago
        At the moment, I'm not sure if /r/sino is any more serious than /r/aeiou. We truly live in a Poe's Law world. (And I leave it to the argies and the austrians to fight over who makes the best milanesa/schnitzel. But it does sound like it may be what I was looking for, in terms of non-hanzi-expressed general opinions which, however outlandish they may sound on HN, would be unremarkable on 新浪微博.)
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    I would not recommend /r/sino if you're looking for good discussions. It's an echo chamber. Most of the guys there are blindly pro-China, blindly anti-American. For better discussions and analysis, check my recommendations here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24035638 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24035638
- tim333 6y ago
  Mainstream chinese views are probably going to be tricky as China is rather dominated by it's dictatorial leader who I think is still a fan of Mao. The new yorker had quite a good article on him https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/04/06/born-red https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/04/06/born-red The Chinese not under the CCP dictatorship in places like Taiwan, Singapore or the US mostly seem hard working democratic and easy going.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    Everything you read, by anyone, whether it's from a Chinese or a western source, is propaganda in one way or another. But maybe by reading Chinese sources, and seeing how different they are, will make us think more critically, and make us more immune to the propaganda we are fed at home.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  Try Tom Fowdy, Carl Zha, and Jerry Grey (@Jerry_grey2002) on Twitter; Daniel Dumbrill, Nathan Rich, and China Teacher Brand on Youtube. All of these lean more towards pro-China, but they're nowhere near as crazy and blindly pro-China as the /r/sino guys, and they analyze situations pretty well. All of these are open for debate, whereas on /r/sino you get banned if you're not showing absolutely loyalty (speaking from experience). Jerry has an excellent blog too. The funny thing is, he never intended to talk about politics, but all the bad news on China since COVID-19 frustrated him so much that he began writing. https://medium.com/@jerry_grey2002 https://medium.com/@jerry_grey2002 If you wanna discuss things, feel free to seek me out.
justicezyx 6y ago
Why do you believe that? People constantly complained US corps extracted too much profit, and get too much recession from the government. The government recession part is less noticeable, because Chinese people are not informed anyway. Like TESLA's shanghai factories. It's common that people complained "I can be as successful as Elon, if I got the same support from the government"...
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  This is literally the first time I've heard of those complaints. I'm not American. I don't hang around in the same circles as you.
Thorrez 6y ago
This book was recommended to me by a Chinese colleague: https://www.amazon.com/American-Trap-Americas-economic-against/dp/1529326869 https://www.amazon.com/American-Trap-Americas-economic-again... It seems to me to be saying the US unfairly gained.

rbecker 6y ago

You're mistaking the tools of the conflict for its cause. The conflict arose because the US finally realized China is a threat (as China knew the US was all along). Which one plays more unfairly is just a tool in propaganda efforts of each side to draw people and countries to its cause. Which is not to say there's no moral difference between the two, just that it's mostly unrelated to the cause of the conflict. In other words, you won't convince the US to allow themselves to become more vulnerable to China, by pointing out their sins in South America. Similar holds for China.