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I'm just looking at how it is currently used. If after all these years there isn't a positive use-case to offset it, there might not be one at all.

by yyyk 6y ago

microcolonel 6y ago
That's because you live in a country with a functioning currency.
- yyyk 6y ago
  I keep hearing that, but I am not familiar with any data that shows actual widespread use by common people* in those countries without a functional currency. Most of these countries barely have a stable internet connection or even stable electrical power, so I wouldn't surprised if these 'currencies' aren't so helpful in practice. * Note that use by corrupt politicians to launder their ill-gotten gains is not a positive.
  - mareko 6y ago
    It's true that Bitcoin is a poor medium of exchange: it's not stable, has slow transaction times, does not work well with mobile devices, and has intimidating identifiers, but it did open the door to new ideas that will likely soon have a huge impact on exactly the uses you're describing.
    - arp242 6y ago
      I feel like I've been hearing this for over 5 years. I hope it materializes, but to be honest it's hard to not be skeptical, not in the least because a lot of the original values of Bitcoin/cryptocurrencies seem to have been subverted by certain people to serve their own needs (which ... is what usually happens if there are no rules to set boundaries).
      - mareko 6y ago
        I'm a little biased, but check out celo.org and valoraapp.com. Celo is a Proof of Stake protocol built to work efficiently on mobile, with stable value, and with phone numbers as identifiers.
  - swader999 6y ago
    Cypress in 2013, Venezuela currently.
    - yyyk 6y ago
      Cyprus currency is the Euro, hardly a bad local currency as far as value is concerned, and the local residents are already adept in keeping funds in other currencies. Historically, Bitcoin had little marketshare there and made no difference. Are there any evidence of large scale use in Venezuela?
  - icelancer 6y ago
    I pay for translation services in cryptocurrency (XMR lately) to Venezuelan citizens who can't readily use USD. Easily thousands of dollars per year.
- jsmith99 6y ago
  There are simpler solutions, such as dollar bills, or a centralised digital banking system in a trusted currency.
  - microcolonel 6y ago
    These depend on a functioning legal system in a country that recognizes human rights. Dollar bills may work in incompetent states, but they don't in oppressive ones.
- raverbashing 6y ago
  Countries without functioning currencies just use (or at least peg) all transactions to Dollar/Euro, etc Yes, bitcoin can play a role but it's not like you're paying for your groceries in bitcoin. Cash under the mattress > blockchain
enraged_camel 6y ago
I'm not convinced that it is negative. After every high profile hack or breach, we complain about how organizations regularly get away with poor security practices with mere slaps on the wrist (in terms of legal penalties they end up having to pay). Perhaps these ransomware attacks are the market's way of making things... more fair.
- yyyk 6y ago
  So far, these attacks don't seem to have prompted security improvements. I guess that for large companies, the payment is a small sum, comparable to the fines they pay every once in a while. Security improvements seem to be driven more by regulation (GDPR), competition (when did ElasticSearch release TLS support for free? Not after the Nth open ES cluster - only after Amazon competed with them), and large costs (switching to Linux servers because they're cheaper. Though there are concerns about current security practices there too...).
zenexer 6y ago
Although I refuted some of your arguments above (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24033759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24033759), I agree that cryptocurrency has fairly limited utility, especially given the costs. The biggest issue I have with cryptocurrency is that it’s an utter waste of resources. It incentivizes the consumption of electricity (and talent) purely to print money, rather than to produce value. Yes, currencies provide some value to society, but we already have more sustainable options. I see the appeal if you hate taxes and regulations or live under a particularly oppressive regime. However, given that it relies, to some extent, on public infrastructure like internet and electricity that governments can outright shut off if they so desire, there are better options. Raw materials and bartering work pretty well. Just don’t invest in tulips.
- 5986043handy 6y ago
  The waste of electricity/mining gear is mostly due to Proof of Work consensus, but moving to Proof of Stake/other consensus algorithms will eliminate basically all waste (eg. Ethereum is moving to PoS).
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
    I feel like I've been hearing about ethereum proof of stake for years. When are they actually going to move to it?
    - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
      From what I can see, cryptocurrency is technologically frozen right now because any change results in some people making less money so there can never be a consensus on anything.
  - dogecoinbase 6y ago
    No one has a demonstrated effective PoS implementation yet (that isn't simple centralization). ETH will not move to PoS anytime soon enough to be meaningful, nor will any other cryptocurrency.

I'm just looking at how it is currently used. If after all these years there isn't a positive use-case to offset it, there might not be one at all.

by yyyk 6y ago

I'm just looking at how it is currently used. If after all these years there isn't a positive use-case to offset it, there might not be one at all.

microcolonel 6y ago

That's because you live in a country with a functioning currency.

yyyk 6y ago
I keep hearing that, but I am not familiar with any data that shows actual widespread use by common people* in those countries without a functional currency. Most of these countries barely have a stable internet connection or even stable electrical power, so I wouldn't surprised if these 'currencies' aren't so helpful in practice. * Note that use by corrupt politicians to launder their ill-gotten gains is not a positive.
- mareko 6y ago
  It's true that Bitcoin is a poor medium of exchange: it's not stable, has slow transaction times, does not work well with mobile devices, and has intimidating identifiers, but it did open the door to new ideas that will likely soon have a huge impact on exactly the uses you're describing.
  - arp242 6y ago
    I feel like I've been hearing this for over 5 years. I hope it materializes, but to be honest it's hard to not be skeptical, not in the least because a lot of the original values of Bitcoin/cryptocurrencies seem to have been subverted by certain people to serve their own needs (which ... is what usually happens if there are no rules to set boundaries).
    - mareko 6y ago
      I'm a little biased, but check out celo.org and valoraapp.com. Celo is a Proof of Stake protocol built to work efficiently on mobile, with stable value, and with phone numbers as identifiers.
- swader999 6y ago
  Cypress in 2013, Venezuela currently.
  - yyyk 6y ago
    Cyprus currency is the Euro, hardly a bad local currency as far as value is concerned, and the local residents are already adept in keeping funds in other currencies. Historically, Bitcoin had little marketshare there and made no difference. Are there any evidence of large scale use in Venezuela?
- icelancer 6y ago
  I pay for translation services in cryptocurrency (XMR lately) to Venezuelan citizens who can't readily use USD. Easily thousands of dollars per year.
jsmith99 6y ago
There are simpler solutions, such as dollar bills, or a centralised digital banking system in a trusted currency.
- microcolonel 6y ago
  These depend on a functioning legal system in a country that recognizes human rights. Dollar bills may work in incompetent states, but they don't in oppressive ones.
raverbashing 6y ago
Countries without functioning currencies just use (or at least peg) all transactions to Dollar/Euro, etc Yes, bitcoin can play a role but it's not like you're paying for your groceries in bitcoin. Cash under the mattress > blockchain

enraged_camel 6y ago

I'm not convinced that it is negative. After every high profile hack or breach, we complain about how organizations regularly get away with poor security practices with mere slaps on the wrist (in terms of legal penalties they end up having to pay). Perhaps these ransomware attacks are the market's way of making things... more fair.

yyyk 6y ago
So far, these attacks don't seem to have prompted security improvements. I guess that for large companies, the payment is a small sum, comparable to the fines they pay every once in a while. Security improvements seem to be driven more by regulation (GDPR), competition (when did ElasticSearch release TLS support for free? Not after the Nth open ES cluster - only after Amazon competed with them), and large costs (switching to Linux servers because they're cheaper. Though there are concerns about current security practices there too...).

zenexer 6y ago

Although I refuted some of your arguments above (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24033759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24033759), I agree that cryptocurrency has fairly limited utility, especially given the costs. The biggest issue I have with cryptocurrency is that it’s an utter waste of resources. It incentivizes the consumption of electricity (and talent) purely to print money, rather than to produce value. Yes, currencies provide some value to society, but we already have more sustainable options. I see the appeal if you hate taxes and regulations or live under a particularly oppressive regime. However, given that it relies, to some extent, on public infrastructure like internet and electricity that governments can outright shut off if they so desire, there are better options. Raw materials and bartering work pretty well. Just don’t invest in tulips.

5986043handy 6y ago
The waste of electricity/mining gear is mostly due to Proof of Work consensus, but moving to Proof of Stake/other consensus algorithms will eliminate basically all waste (eg. Ethereum is moving to PoS).
- asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
  I feel like I've been hearing about ethereum proof of stake for years. When are they actually going to move to it?
  - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
    From what I can see, cryptocurrency is technologically frozen right now because any change results in some people making less money so there can never be a consensus on anything.
- dogecoinbase 6y ago
  No one has a demonstrated effective PoS implementation yet (that isn't simple centralization). ETH will not move to PoS anytime soon enough to be meaningful, nor will any other cryptocurrency.