10 ms·

What baffles me about people defending Apple is that they are basically saying this: "I like not having a choice. And I want others not having a choice too, whe

What baffles me about people defending Apple is that they are basically saying this: "I like not having a choice. And I want others not having a choice too, whether they like it or not". Users were able to run apps on their Mac directly bypassing AppStore since forever. Why would it suddenly be a dreadful problem if Apple would allow app sideloading on iOS?

dijit 6y ago
Unpopular opinion: I see it as a little bit similar the coronavirus masks here. Your choice can potentially impact my security. (or, security of the platform). Personally I like apple devices, I like that when I give them to my family I don't get a bunch of support questions like I do when I give them PC's or my old Android devices. That said: I would prefer apple devices (and thus, their store) to be a minority market share, which pushes the play store to look at their own practices and increase the barrier to entry, or the standard to which applications are held. Even my girlfriend (who is young and relatively tech savvy, though does not work in tech) has downloaded and executed virus' from the play store by mistake.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  if you don't install sideloaded apps, it won't impact your security in the slightest. Or, maybe, you don't like the idea that you'll have to sideload the app you need because it isn't available in the AppStore? Hmm. Well, you'll feel a biiiiit like other people who don't have a choice under Apple's regime, with only difference that they can't run the app at all, and you can run it in a way that you don't like.
  - dijit 6y ago
    Context of this thread is an alternative application store; Sideloading is still possible and is free, but you have to know what you're doing. It's a tremendous barrier to entry (your keys even expire every few days so you have to keep re-sideloading) thus people don't bother with it.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
      Sideloading is you press a link, download app, install it (granting permissions), run it. Anything else is not sideloading. Alternative appstore is basically same as sideloading, cause the latter is necessary for the former to function. Btw important overlooked issue is not only sideloading per se, but unrestricted access to push notifications / subscribing to alternative push notification services. With restrictions on running in background iOS apps are next to useless without notifications - you won't get VoIP, email, chat apps working without capability to wake up on push.
      - dijit 6y ago
        I think we fundamentally disagree here then. :) I'm very happy in my locked platform, I'm happy that my family are on a locked platform. If they (or I) want to be on a more open platform then that exists, just not for apple devcies; but for now I trust random developers less than I trust Apple. If it becomes normalised to bypass the app store, then it's going to be very difficult to control the quality of software generally; and on a macro-scale will entice even large developers (like banks) to go the 'alternative app store' route, which will force everyone to be using applications which are not vetted in a reasonable way.
        Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
        In other words, as I said in the beginning of the thread, you like not having a choice, and you do not want me to have a choice, too. But why are you wording this as if AppStore will somehow vanish? I don't think it will be going anywhere even if some apps will start working without Apple's permission. Chances are, it'll get better if it has some real competition.
        dijit 6y ago
        Well, very very technically; you kinda made a choice when you bought an Apple product. It's like buying an android phone then being sour that photoshop doesn't work, I think. As for why I'm wording it as if the AppStore will dissapear, it's because of all the reasons I laid out. Right now it's a gate or a fence; the great filter which all must pass through; but if there exists a cheaper/easier alternative that gives the same results, why not use that? It will become incredibly normal to run the alternative app store- to the point where a lot of software will be released only to run there (which is a stated aim) and if everyone has the alternative store, why bother with Apples?
DeusExMachina 6y ago
I have seen many arguments, but "I like not having a choice. And I want others not having a choice too, whether they like it or not" has never been one, nor has any argument I have seen ever get close to that. I think that Apple should allow apps to be installed from outside of the app store, but your argument is just a straw man.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  "Straw man"? This is a top comment in a previous thread: As a consumer, I am 100% in favor of the way run the app store. I don't want to give random apps my credit card. I don't want to have 18 accounts to keep track of. I don't want to have to call telephone support to cancel my account. I don't want malware in my apps. I don't want apps to have my email if they don't need it. I don't need another middleman for content companies license and distribute. Everything Apple is doing is helping make a better app store for me. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24013658 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24013658 I can add that he also doesn't want Chinese dissidents to run Signal or XMPP app to bypass wiretapping by the oppressive government.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
    I am, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, for me. Fairly certain user @spullara was talking about themselves personally.
  - DeusExMachina 6y ago
    Agree or disagree, none of those things in the list sounds like your "I like not having a choice." But I guess that's how you want to read them.
- jcelerier 6y ago
  a comment just a bit below yours is (unironically, sadly) : > I'm very happy in my locked platform, I'm happy that my family are on a locked platform. > If they (or I) want to be on a more open platform then that exists, just not for apple devcies; but for now I trust random developers less than I trust Apple.
Shivetya 6y ago
What baffles me about people attacking Apple is that they basically saying this: You first had to choose an Apple product with its restrictions over all other available devices. You made the first choice, if the choice does not permit you to do what you want then you have made an incorrect choice. Apple did not choose you, you chose Apple. I willingly bought my last iPhone knowing the restrictions of the App Store and it did not bother me. If it did I could have easily bought any of the Android phones or at the time Windows phones. If you bought an Apple device knowing the restriction why did you make the choice anyway?
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  I don't buy iOS devices for personal use for this precise reason, so you are wrong in attributing me this "you made the first choice". Btw, another popular argument defending Apple is "Sideloaded apps will defraud users by tricking them into giving payment information and stealing funds" - but Apple already defrauded their users by selling them the device and next blocking them from using it in any way they want. If a user wants to run an app on iOS device, and apps developer wants a user to run this app, it should not be Apple's business to stop them from doing it.
  - jsjohnst 6y ago
    > If a user wants to run an app on iOS device Which is of course possible, has been for a long long time, and doesn’t require Apple or AppStore approval. It’s even free to do if you don’t mind repeating your steps weekly.
- jariel 6y ago
  "You made the first choice" It's not a choice when there are very limited handset operators available. Market power is a very real thing. I suggest that the overwhelming majority of iOS users would opt to be able to download apps out of the App store if this were an option.
- jcelerier 6y ago
  > What baffles me about people attacking Apple is that they basically saying this: You first had to choose an Apple product with its restrictions over all other available devices. not necessarily - I don't have an iPhone right now and I'd still attack Apple on that. Negating me this right would be the same that saying that as a french I couldn't go to protests against Guantanamo.
Skinney 6y ago
iOS has never been open, though. If you bought an iOS device, then you were already fine with not being able to install whatever you wanted on it. On the other hand, if Apple would limit MacOS in this way I would be livid.
- ur-whale 6y ago
  > On the other hand, if Apple would limit MacOS in this way I would be livid. They're well on their merry way to doing exactly that.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    People have been saying that since the Mac App Store was released in 2011.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
haecceity 6y ago
Ya but other people not having the choice to side load apps makes the app economy better. Seems reasonable.
ballenf 6y ago
And I'm baffled by the people who are upset they can't sell their own popcorn and funnel cakes in Disneyworld.
- wonderlg 6y ago
  So you’re saying that we don’t own Apple devices but merely rent them out for the day? Disneyland isn’t a product, you can’t compare it to a phone.
  - ballenf 6y ago
    Apple didn't change the rules after they sold you the phone. It was locked down when you bought it just like Disney is. We absolutely don't fully own iPhones in the FSF sense. Same for your refrigerator with DRM water filters. Or your Tesla.
    - tuscen 6y ago
      And that’s the problem: in my opinion it should be illegal. If I pay the full price I own the device from top to bottom including the ability to change every piece of internal firmwares and software. Otherwise it is renting and must be presented as such from the beginning.
      - scarface74 6y ago
        Do you buy game consoles? Do you have a Roku device? Do you really need the government to come in when you had a choice to buy an Android device?
        tuscen 6y ago
        It doesn't matter what I buy or not buy. It's a matter of corporations being able to eat the cake and have it too. There's a distinction of ownership and renting and corporations have successfuly twisted the difference in their favor by bribing as much people as their could.
wonderlg 6y ago
To be fair, if an alternative App Store was available and popular, I’d probably have to use it to download Spotify, Audible, etc. Its existence would affect me. It would benefit in some way (like being able to subscribe to Audible in the app) but also it could be less safe (because if Amazon can, anyone else also can, possibly without supervision)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- techntoke 6y ago
  This isn't really a problem on Android, which already allows you to install apps outside the app store.
  - Daneel_ 6y ago
    Android also has global issues with malware infections and crapware, primarily due to people downloading software from third-party app stores. I’m not saying the apple model is how I want things (far from it), but it certainly has been effective at controlling malware on the platform.
    - techntoke 6y ago
      Can you please tell me what app stores you're referring to, and which apps on F-Droid currently contain malware?
      - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
        Here's an article from from April this year 2020 https://www.techradar.com/news/phantomlance-malware-breaches-google-play-store-security https://www.techradar.com/news/phantomlance-malware-breaches... Dozens of malicious apps infected with the malware are being distributed via the Play Store and alternate app stores such as APKpure and APKCombo, often targeting users to spy on their habits and steal data. According to security firm Kaspersky, this malware campaign has been live for over 4 years, and is likely the work of the OceanLotus advanced persistent threat (APT) group, thought to be based out of Vietnam.
rzwitserloot 6y ago
I don't think you get the essence of the defense. Take New York Times. Last I checked, you can sign up online, but to cancel your subscription, you have to call and subject yourself to a slick sales pitch and all sorts of questions. It's inconvenient and borderline immoral. One solution is, heh, the free hand / competition, but we clearly see that doesn't work all that well. A much simpler solution is to identify such behaviours and straight up outlaw that stuff. Which hasn't happened yet and probably won't for the foreseeable future. Here's the thing: __The app store is in some ways like a government, and brings laws__. As long as that subscription were to run via the app store, you _CANNOT_ hide cancellation behind a phone number. Apple won't let you ship an app that works that way; in fact, apple does the billing. I'm pretty sure that benefit pales in comparison to the problems that apple's sole ownership and onerous Judge Dredd-ian (judge, jury, _and_ executioner!) control over the fate of your apps on the apple app store bring. But you paint the argument as zero cost to allowing alternate app stores, and __that is not true__. Once alternate app stores or other enforced reduction in apple's abilities to enforce and police app store policy are in place, a bunch of apps WILL go sleazy on you where they wouldn't have otherwise. NB: Of course, in practice, netflix etc. just do signups online, you get the same total lack of protection against sleazy stuff, and now the apps you download from the app store don't even tell you what you're supposed to do because apple won't let you explain that you need to sign up online and not in the app. Apple's solution / the current status quo sucks; probably sucks more than having alternate app stores available. All I'm saying is that having alternate app stores, whilst it brings a lot of upside, does bring downside, and that is (presumably) what the defenders of apple are trying to warn you about: Those downsides.
- ric2b 6y ago
  > Once alternate app stores or other enforced reduction in apple's abilities to enforce and police app store policy are in place, We don't need to imagine that scenario, that's Android, and Google still definitely holds massive control with it's play store rules. > All I'm saying is that having alternate app stores, whilst it brings a lot of upside, does bring downside, and that is (presumably) what the defenders of apple are trying to warn you about: Those downsides. So go ahead and pick your examples from the Android world.
- 6y ago
searchableguy 6y ago
People justify their purchases after, not before.
RomaTesla 6y ago
Why would an average customer want to download apps from who knows where instead of an App Store? Hey started this whole drama, they clearly did not even follow the guidelines. Why is it so hard to follow the guidelines to provide a better experience for the end user?
- Rebelgecko 6y ago
  This is a bit subjective, but IMO the guidelines don't provide a better end user experience. Sure, some of them do. But decisions like banning apps that compete with Apple don't seem to be done to help the end user If the guidelines are actually good for the end user, why does Apple violate so many of the app store guidelines in their own apps?
  - RomaTesla 6y ago
    I'm curious if Apple banning competing apps is a real thing or just something media/haters created to create drama. I don't have an insider looks, so I honestly cannot know how those things go down. Do you happen to know any specific details? Genuinely curious :D
    - toyg 6y ago
      It's a real thing. Take f.lux: they spearheaded a feature, were never allowed onto iOS, then Apple developed a copycat feature. Or the browser: there is no technical reason for stopping alternative browsers from getting onto iOS, but it would make Safari commercially irrelevant.
      - jsjohnst 6y ago
        > Take f.lux: they spearheaded a feature, were never allowed onto iOS, then Apple developed a copycat feature. I love the subjective memory / interpretation here. Apple didn’t block f.lux, there was no API available on iOS for it to work. Apple decided rather than provide a public API method, they’d just provide the feature itself. Sucks for f.lux, but far less than it did for LumaDisplay and Sidecar. > there is no technical reason for stopping alternative browsers from getting onto iOS 1) alternative browsers exist on iOS. Chrome for example! Sure, you’d be fair to say “not real Chrome”, but then see point 2 2) the technical reason you claim doesn’t exist very much does. Web browsers require the ability to have dynamic code execution from untrusted sources. Look at all the OS compromises historically from browser bugs and you can potentially understand why Apple wants to try to exert control there. The counter argument of course is that Apple has also failed here, there’s been multiple jailbreaks which could be triggered by visiting a webpage, but I see Apple using that to justify their actions further (if even we can’t get it right always, no way others will). I’m not claiming that parenthetical mentality is justified, but it likely plays a part in what Apple thinks.
foobiekr 6y ago
I absolutely am glad my parents don't have the choice.
- slivanes 6y ago
  I wonder if you'd think it OK if your kids thought you were not educated enough to be given a choice?
  - rad_gruchalski 6y ago
    It’s not about education. Some people simply do not get how this stuff works. How difficult is it to understand it. Go on and read about how many people get scammed online or scammed via telephone using the „grand son” or „cop needs your your $1k now” trick. Some people are easier to exploit and exploiting them online can be easy. My mother is in that group. It’s a very good feeling knowing I can tell her „just do it, as long as it is your iphone”.
    - searchableguy 6y ago
      What percentage of people are like this? We can have different edition of phones for both iOS and Android. One could be unlocked and allows side loading while the other doesn't. Seems like an easy enough solution? Mark the phones visibly so there is no way someone could mistake one for the other.
      - jsjohnst 6y ago
        > allows side loading All iOS Devices allow side loading currently. You don’t even need the source to the app, you can sign any app binary (compiled yourself or from another) using a free Apple developer ID for 7 days. Don’t want to refresh every 7 days? Pay $100/year and not only can you run non-Apple approved apps for a year now, you can do the same for friends. There’s even MacOS apps to make this trivially simple to do, even for lightly technical users.
    - simion314 6y ago
scarface74 6y ago
What baffles me about people complaining about their Apple devices being locked down - why did they buy it?
- lexs 6y ago
  They like the hardware maybe?
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Well. If they like government intervention so much and they want government’s help so they can get their perfect no tradeoff device, why not go all the way? Encourage the government to fund and create the perfect phone that meets all their needs. I’m sure all of the technologists in the EU government and US government can come up with the perfect “Five Year Plan”.
1vuio0pswjnm7 6y ago
"I like not having choice, so long Apple is the only choice. And I want others not having choice too, as log as Apple is their only choice, whether they like it or not." They should at least allow optional sideloading on device versions they no longer support, e.g., "obsolete" iPhones and iPads. There should be an "official" way to "root" these devices that otherwise in effect can no longer use the AppStore (because most AppStore apps only work with the most recent iOS versions). Another idea would be to have an AppStore "archive" so older devices can still use an official AppStore. Apple's "AppStore" is in effect a way to force obsolecence and mandate device upgrades.

dijit 6y ago

Unpopular opinion: I see it as a little bit similar the coronavirus masks here. Your choice can potentially impact my security. (or, security of the platform). Personally I like apple devices, I like that when I give them to my family I don't get a bunch of support questions like I do when I give them PC's or my old Android devices. That said: I would prefer apple devices (and thus, their store) to be a minority market share, which pushes the play store to look at their own practices and increase the barrier to entry, or the standard to which applications are held. Even my girlfriend (who is young and relatively tech savvy, though does not work in tech) has downloaded and executed virus' from the play store by mistake.

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
if you don't install sideloaded apps, it won't impact your security in the slightest. Or, maybe, you don't like the idea that you'll have to sideload the app you need because it isn't available in the AppStore? Hmm. Well, you'll feel a biiiiit like other people who don't have a choice under Apple's regime, with only difference that they can't run the app at all, and you can run it in a way that you don't like.
- dijit 6y ago
  Context of this thread is an alternative application store; Sideloading is still possible and is free, but you have to know what you're doing. It's a tremendous barrier to entry (your keys even expire every few days so you have to keep re-sideloading) thus people don't bother with it.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    Sideloading is you press a link, download app, install it (granting permissions), run it. Anything else is not sideloading. Alternative appstore is basically same as sideloading, cause the latter is necessary for the former to function. Btw important overlooked issue is not only sideloading per se, but unrestricted access to push notifications / subscribing to alternative push notification services. With restrictions on running in background iOS apps are next to useless without notifications - you won't get VoIP, email, chat apps working without capability to wake up on push.
    - dijit 6y ago
      I think we fundamentally disagree here then. :) I'm very happy in my locked platform, I'm happy that my family are on a locked platform. If they (or I) want to be on a more open platform then that exists, just not for apple devcies; but for now I trust random developers less than I trust Apple. If it becomes normalised to bypass the app store, then it's going to be very difficult to control the quality of software generally; and on a macro-scale will entice even large developers (like banks) to go the 'alternative app store' route, which will force everyone to be using applications which are not vetted in a reasonable way.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
        In other words, as I said in the beginning of the thread, you like not having a choice, and you do not want me to have a choice, too. But why are you wording this as if AppStore will somehow vanish? I don't think it will be going anywhere even if some apps will start working without Apple's permission. Chances are, it'll get better if it has some real competition.
        dijit 6y ago
        Well, very very technically; you kinda made a choice when you bought an Apple product. It's like buying an android phone then being sour that photoshop doesn't work, I think. As for why I'm wording it as if the AppStore will dissapear, it's because of all the reasons I laid out. Right now it's a gate or a fence; the great filter which all must pass through; but if there exists a cheaper/easier alternative that gives the same results, why not use that? It will become incredibly normal to run the alternative app store- to the point where a lot of software will be released only to run there (which is a stated aim) and if everyone has the alternative store, why bother with Apples?

DeusExMachina 6y ago

I have seen many arguments, but "I like not having a choice. And I want others not having a choice too, whether they like it or not" has never been one, nor has any argument I have seen ever get close to that. I think that Apple should allow apps to be installed from outside of the app store, but your argument is just a straw man.

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
"Straw man"? This is a top comment in a previous thread: As a consumer, I am 100% in favor of the way run the app store. I don't want to give random apps my credit card. I don't want to have 18 accounts to keep track of. I don't want to have to call telephone support to cancel my account. I don't want malware in my apps. I don't want apps to have my email if they don't need it. I don't need another middleman for content companies license and distribute. Everything Apple is doing is helping make a better app store for me. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24013658 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24013658 I can add that he also doesn't want Chinese dissidents to run Signal or XMPP app to bypass wiretapping by the oppressive government.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
  I am, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, for me. Fairly certain user @spullara was talking about themselves personally.
- DeusExMachina 6y ago
  Agree or disagree, none of those things in the list sounds like your "I like not having a choice." But I guess that's how you want to read them.
jcelerier 6y ago
a comment just a bit below yours is (unironically, sadly) : > I'm very happy in my locked platform, I'm happy that my family are on a locked platform. > If they (or I) want to be on a more open platform then that exists, just not for apple devcies; but for now I trust random developers less than I trust Apple.

Shivetya 6y ago

What baffles me about people attacking Apple is that they basically saying this: You first had to choose an Apple product with its restrictions over all other available devices. You made the first choice, if the choice does not permit you to do what you want then you have made an incorrect choice. Apple did not choose you, you chose Apple. I willingly bought my last iPhone knowing the restrictions of the App Store and it did not bother me. If it did I could have easily bought any of the Android phones or at the time Windows phones. If you bought an Apple device knowing the restriction why did you make the choice anyway?

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
I don't buy iOS devices for personal use for this precise reason, so you are wrong in attributing me this "you made the first choice". Btw, another popular argument defending Apple is "Sideloaded apps will defraud users by tricking them into giving payment information and stealing funds" - but Apple already defrauded their users by selling them the device and next blocking them from using it in any way they want. If a user wants to run an app on iOS device, and apps developer wants a user to run this app, it should not be Apple's business to stop them from doing it.
- jsjohnst 6y ago
  > If a user wants to run an app on iOS device Which is of course possible, has been for a long long time, and doesn’t require Apple or AppStore approval. It’s even free to do if you don’t mind repeating your steps weekly.
jariel 6y ago
"You made the first choice" It's not a choice when there are very limited handset operators available. Market power is a very real thing. I suggest that the overwhelming majority of iOS users would opt to be able to download apps out of the App store if this were an option.
jcelerier 6y ago
> What baffles me about people attacking Apple is that they basically saying this: You first had to choose an Apple product with its restrictions over all other available devices. not necessarily - I don't have an iPhone right now and I'd still attack Apple on that. Negating me this right would be the same that saying that as a french I couldn't go to protests against Guantanamo.

Skinney 6y ago

iOS has never been open, though. If you bought an iOS device, then you were already fine with not being able to install whatever you wanted on it. On the other hand, if Apple would limit MacOS in this way I would be livid.

ur-whale 6y ago
> On the other hand, if Apple would limit MacOS in this way I would be livid. They're well on their merry way to doing exactly that.
- scarface74 6y ago
  People have been saying that since the Mac App Store was released in 2011.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

haecceity 6y ago

Ya but other people not having the choice to side load apps makes the app economy better. Seems reasonable.

ballenf 6y ago

And I'm baffled by the people who are upset they can't sell their own popcorn and funnel cakes in Disneyworld.

wonderlg 6y ago
So you’re saying that we don’t own Apple devices but merely rent them out for the day? Disneyland isn’t a product, you can’t compare it to a phone.
- ballenf 6y ago
  Apple didn't change the rules after they sold you the phone. It was locked down when you bought it just like Disney is. We absolutely don't fully own iPhones in the FSF sense. Same for your refrigerator with DRM water filters. Or your Tesla.
  - tuscen 6y ago
    And that’s the problem: in my opinion it should be illegal. If I pay the full price I own the device from top to bottom including the ability to change every piece of internal firmwares and software. Otherwise it is renting and must be presented as such from the beginning.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      Do you buy game consoles? Do you have a Roku device? Do you really need the government to come in when you had a choice to buy an Android device?
      - tuscen 6y ago
        It doesn't matter what I buy or not buy. It's a matter of corporations being able to eat the cake and have it too. There's a distinction of ownership and renting and corporations have successfuly twisted the difference in their favor by bribing as much people as their could.

wonderlg 6y ago

To be fair, if an alternative App Store was available and popular, I’d probably have to use it to download Spotify, Audible, etc. Its existence would affect me. It would benefit in some way (like being able to subscribe to Audible in the app) but also it could be less safe (because if Amazon can, anyone else also can, possibly without supervision)

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
techntoke 6y ago
This isn't really a problem on Android, which already allows you to install apps outside the app store.
- Daneel_ 6y ago
  Android also has global issues with malware infections and crapware, primarily due to people downloading software from third-party app stores. I’m not saying the apple model is how I want things (far from it), but it certainly has been effective at controlling malware on the platform.
  - techntoke 6y ago
    Can you please tell me what app stores you're referring to, and which apps on F-Droid currently contain malware?
    - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
      Here's an article from from April this year 2020 https://www.techradar.com/news/phantomlance-malware-breaches-google-play-store-security https://www.techradar.com/news/phantomlance-malware-breaches... Dozens of malicious apps infected with the malware are being distributed via the Play Store and alternate app stores such as APKpure and APKCombo, often targeting users to spy on their habits and steal data. According to security firm Kaspersky, this malware campaign has been live for over 4 years, and is likely the work of the OceanLotus advanced persistent threat (APT) group, thought to be based out of Vietnam.

rzwitserloot 6y ago

I don't think you get the essence of the defense. Take New York Times. Last I checked, you can sign up online, but to cancel your subscription, you have to call and subject yourself to a slick sales pitch and all sorts of questions. It's inconvenient and borderline immoral. One solution is, heh, the free hand / competition, but we clearly see that doesn't work all that well. A much simpler solution is to identify such behaviours and straight up outlaw that stuff. Which hasn't happened yet and probably won't for the foreseeable future. Here's the thing: __The app store is in some ways like a government, and brings laws__. As long as that subscription were to run via the app store, you _CANNOT_ hide cancellation behind a phone number. Apple won't let you ship an app that works that way; in fact, apple does the billing. I'm pretty sure that benefit pales in comparison to the problems that apple's sole ownership and onerous Judge Dredd-ian (judge, jury, _and_ executioner!) control over the fate of your apps on the apple app store bring. But you paint the argument as zero cost to allowing alternate app stores, and __that is not true__. Once alternate app stores or other enforced reduction in apple's abilities to enforce and police app store policy are in place, a bunch of apps WILL go sleazy on you where they wouldn't have otherwise. NB: Of course, in practice, netflix etc. just do signups online, you get the same total lack of protection against sleazy stuff, and now the apps you download from the app store don't even tell you what you're supposed to do because apple won't let you explain that you need to sign up online and not in the app. Apple's solution / the current status quo sucks; probably sucks more than having alternate app stores available. All I'm saying is that having alternate app stores, whilst it brings a lot of upside, does bring downside, and that is (presumably) what the defenders of apple are trying to warn you about: Those downsides.

ric2b 6y ago
> Once alternate app stores or other enforced reduction in apple's abilities to enforce and police app store policy are in place, We don't need to imagine that scenario, that's Android, and Google still definitely holds massive control with it's play store rules. > All I'm saying is that having alternate app stores, whilst it brings a lot of upside, does bring downside, and that is (presumably) what the defenders of apple are trying to warn you about: Those downsides. So go ahead and pick your examples from the Android world.
6y ago

searchableguy 6y ago

People justify their purchases after, not before.

RomaTesla 6y ago

Why would an average customer want to download apps from who knows where instead of an App Store? Hey started this whole drama, they clearly did not even follow the guidelines. Why is it so hard to follow the guidelines to provide a better experience for the end user?

Rebelgecko 6y ago
This is a bit subjective, but IMO the guidelines don't provide a better end user experience. Sure, some of them do. But decisions like banning apps that compete with Apple don't seem to be done to help the end user If the guidelines are actually good for the end user, why does Apple violate so many of the app store guidelines in their own apps?
- RomaTesla 6y ago
  I'm curious if Apple banning competing apps is a real thing or just something media/haters created to create drama. I don't have an insider looks, so I honestly cannot know how those things go down. Do you happen to know any specific details? Genuinely curious :D
  - toyg 6y ago
    It's a real thing. Take f.lux: they spearheaded a feature, were never allowed onto iOS, then Apple developed a copycat feature. Or the browser: there is no technical reason for stopping alternative browsers from getting onto iOS, but it would make Safari commercially irrelevant.
    - jsjohnst 6y ago
      > Take f.lux: they spearheaded a feature, were never allowed onto iOS, then Apple developed a copycat feature. I love the subjective memory / interpretation here. Apple didn’t block f.lux, there was no API available on iOS for it to work. Apple decided rather than provide a public API method, they’d just provide the feature itself. Sucks for f.lux, but far less than it did for LumaDisplay and Sidecar. > there is no technical reason for stopping alternative browsers from getting onto iOS 1) alternative browsers exist on iOS. Chrome for example! Sure, you’d be fair to say “not real Chrome”, but then see point 2 2) the technical reason you claim doesn’t exist very much does. Web browsers require the ability to have dynamic code execution from untrusted sources. Look at all the OS compromises historically from browser bugs and you can potentially understand why Apple wants to try to exert control there. The counter argument of course is that Apple has also failed here, there’s been multiple jailbreaks which could be triggered by visiting a webpage, but I see Apple using that to justify their actions further (if even we can’t get it right always, no way others will). I’m not claiming that parenthetical mentality is justified, but it likely plays a part in what Apple thinks.

foobiekr 6y ago

I absolutely am glad my parents don't have the choice.

slivanes 6y ago
I wonder if you'd think it OK if your kids thought you were not educated enough to be given a choice?
- rad_gruchalski 6y ago
  It’s not about education. Some people simply do not get how this stuff works. How difficult is it to understand it. Go on and read about how many people get scammed online or scammed via telephone using the „grand son” or „cop needs your your $1k now” trick. Some people are easier to exploit and exploiting them online can be easy. My mother is in that group. It’s a very good feeling knowing I can tell her „just do it, as long as it is your iphone”.
  - searchableguy 6y ago
    What percentage of people are like this? We can have different edition of phones for both iOS and Android. One could be unlocked and allows side loading while the other doesn't. Seems like an easy enough solution? Mark the phones visibly so there is no way someone could mistake one for the other.
    - jsjohnst 6y ago
      > allows side loading All iOS Devices allow side loading currently. You don’t even need the source to the app, you can sign any app binary (compiled yourself or from another) using a free Apple developer ID for 7 days. Don’t want to refresh every 7 days? Pay $100/year and not only can you run non-Apple approved apps for a year now, you can do the same for friends. There’s even MacOS apps to make this trivially simple to do, even for lightly technical users.
  - simion314 6y ago

scarface74 6y ago

What baffles me about people complaining about their Apple devices being locked down - why did they buy it?

lexs 6y ago
They like the hardware maybe?
- scarface74 6y ago
  Well. If they like government intervention so much and they want government’s help so they can get their perfect no tradeoff device, why not go all the way? Encourage the government to fund and create the perfect phone that meets all their needs. I’m sure all of the technologists in the EU government and US government can come up with the perfect “Five Year Plan”.

1vuio0pswjnm7 6y ago

"I like not having choice, so long Apple is the only choice. And I want others not having choice too, as log as Apple is their only choice, whether they like it or not." They should at least allow optional sideloading on device versions they no longer support, e.g., "obsolete" iPhones and iPads. There should be an "official" way to "root" these devices that otherwise in effect can no longer use the AppStore (because most AppStore apps only work with the most recent iOS versions). Another idea would be to have an AppStore "archive" so older devices can still use an official AppStore. Apple's "AppStore" is in effect a way to force obsolecence and mandate device upgrades.