5 ms·

I think giving ability to download apps outside of App Store would break the entire business model that Apple has, because app owners will use other subscriptio

I think giving ability to download apps outside of App Store would break the entire business model that Apple has, because app owners will use other subscription providers and payment options with cheaper fees, but on the other hand there would be a huge problem with Scam apps or cracked versions. So it's not going to happen anyway...

actuator 6y ago
I think one of the reasoning Telegram is giving is good though. If protesters in HK are using Telegram to communicate and Apple removes it from the App Store then they have no recourse of installing it. I guess giving a way like in Android where you hide the setting behind a flag in settings and explicitly keep warning the user when they install an app from outside is a decent middle ground. I am not sure of this but I think recent version of either Android/Pixel do a check on apps even installed from outside for malicious activity.
- amoitnga 6y ago
  I agree. plus, isnt it the case for Mac? you can install apps from other places.
- threeseed 6y ago
  If Apple allowed sideloading of apps it would mirror the Mac. Where apps are still approved by Apple in order to be signed. And unsigned apps are by default not allowed to be opened. This would not change the situation in HK where China could simply force Apple not to sign the Telegram app and instead sign their fake Telegram app.
  - toyg 6y ago
    You can still run unsigned apps on macOS, either by clicking through pop-ups or (at worst) by disabling Gatekeeper.
    - threeseed 6y ago
      By default to run an unsigned app you need to right-click on the app and select Open. Then it will present a dialog asking whether to ignore the signing. Otherwise there is no option. Very few people know about this.
      - toyg 6y ago
        I know (I've been on mac for more than a decade, arguably as a power-user), and anybody who needs to know can google it in 5 seconds. Also, gatekeeper can be completely disabled from the command line, and then you don't get even that pop-up and you can run stuff unsigned. An arrangement like this would work fine on iOS too. There is no technical motive behind Apple's refusal to allow sideloading. It's simply a monopolistic power-play.
  - hu3 6y ago
    Can't you install unsigned apps on macs?
627467 6y ago
Can you define "huge"? Android enables that possibility, so a good randomized sample to prove the point: how huge is that problem in the android world, as in, how many millions of vulnerated devices and users are out there? How many millions of installs these "scam stores/apps" have? It's a genuine questions since it's likely someone in hn can provide some peer reviewed data.
- vbezhenar 6y ago
  Apple performs scan of all uploaded applications to check that they're not using private APIs. I might be wrong, but I think that unrestricted use of private APIs might result in broken security model. So allowing users to install any apps might affect security. Probably better approach would be to develop better web APIs, so Telegram could be run in a browser with identical experience.
  - anticensor 6y ago
    > run in a browser with identical experience. That would enable secret chats on desktop, so I am in.
    - duskwuff 6y ago
      Telegram Web (https://web.telegram.org/ https://web.telegram.org/) has existed for ages. There's no technical reason that it couldn't support secret chats; it's just been neglected by the Telegram developers.
heavyset_go 6y ago
I don't see the problem. Spam and scam apps still make their way on to the Mac and iOS App Stores, and I'm sure that other app stores can use the 30% cut (or less) more efficiently compared to how Apple or Google uses it to run their app stores.
- bsaul 6y ago
  scam apps are pretty rare on the app store to be honest. I don't mind apple providing an official, supported by default, highly curated app store. But that shouldn't be the only way to install software. On the other hand, there is one ecosystem which i wonder is comparable : the playstation one. Can you release a game on that console without explicit whiteflagging by sony ?
  - duskwuff 6y ago
    > On the other hand, there is one ecosystem which i wonder is comparable : the playstation one. Can you release a game on that console without explicit whiteflagging by sony ? Nope. And the same goes for virtually all of the major video game consoles -- Xbox, Playstation, and Nintendo's various consoles are all closed systems, with significantly more stringent rules than anything in the mobile market. In many cases, even starting to develop an application for the console requires the prior approval of the manufacturer.
nradov 6y ago
The App Store is only one piece of Apple's business model. They also earn significant profits from hardware sales (including seriously overpriced accessories), extended warranties, and content licensing.
simion314 6y ago
you mean that OSX users are cracking apps a lot? or they get scammed all the time? IMO the OSX security feels more sane for me, you let power users to decide if they want to allow apps to do "dangerous" things and you give the option for users to run stuff they downloaded or they wrote.

actuator 6y ago

I think one of the reasoning Telegram is giving is good though. If protesters in HK are using Telegram to communicate and Apple removes it from the App Store then they have no recourse of installing it. I guess giving a way like in Android where you hide the setting behind a flag in settings and explicitly keep warning the user when they install an app from outside is a decent middle ground. I am not sure of this but I think recent version of either Android/Pixel do a check on apps even installed from outside for malicious activity.

amoitnga 6y ago
I agree. plus, isnt it the case for Mac? you can install apps from other places.
threeseed 6y ago
If Apple allowed sideloading of apps it would mirror the Mac. Where apps are still approved by Apple in order to be signed. And unsigned apps are by default not allowed to be opened. This would not change the situation in HK where China could simply force Apple not to sign the Telegram app and instead sign their fake Telegram app.
- toyg 6y ago
  You can still run unsigned apps on macOS, either by clicking through pop-ups or (at worst) by disabling Gatekeeper.
  - threeseed 6y ago
    By default to run an unsigned app you need to right-click on the app and select Open. Then it will present a dialog asking whether to ignore the signing. Otherwise there is no option. Very few people know about this.
    - toyg 6y ago
      I know (I've been on mac for more than a decade, arguably as a power-user), and anybody who needs to know can google it in 5 seconds. Also, gatekeeper can be completely disabled from the command line, and then you don't get even that pop-up and you can run stuff unsigned. An arrangement like this would work fine on iOS too. There is no technical motive behind Apple's refusal to allow sideloading. It's simply a monopolistic power-play.
- hu3 6y ago
  Can't you install unsigned apps on macs?

627467 6y ago

Can you define "huge"? Android enables that possibility, so a good randomized sample to prove the point: how huge is that problem in the android world, as in, how many millions of vulnerated devices and users are out there? How many millions of installs these "scam stores/apps" have? It's a genuine questions since it's likely someone in hn can provide some peer reviewed data.

vbezhenar 6y ago
Apple performs scan of all uploaded applications to check that they're not using private APIs. I might be wrong, but I think that unrestricted use of private APIs might result in broken security model. So allowing users to install any apps might affect security. Probably better approach would be to develop better web APIs, so Telegram could be run in a browser with identical experience.
- anticensor 6y ago
  > run in a browser with identical experience. That would enable secret chats on desktop, so I am in.
  - duskwuff 6y ago
    Telegram Web (https://web.telegram.org/ https://web.telegram.org/) has existed for ages. There's no technical reason that it couldn't support secret chats; it's just been neglected by the Telegram developers.

heavyset_go 6y ago

I don't see the problem. Spam and scam apps still make their way on to the Mac and iOS App Stores, and I'm sure that other app stores can use the 30% cut (or less) more efficiently compared to how Apple or Google uses it to run their app stores.

bsaul 6y ago
scam apps are pretty rare on the app store to be honest. I don't mind apple providing an official, supported by default, highly curated app store. But that shouldn't be the only way to install software. On the other hand, there is one ecosystem which i wonder is comparable : the playstation one. Can you release a game on that console without explicit whiteflagging by sony ?
- duskwuff 6y ago
  > On the other hand, there is one ecosystem which i wonder is comparable : the playstation one. Can you release a game on that console without explicit whiteflagging by sony ? Nope. And the same goes for virtually all of the major video game consoles -- Xbox, Playstation, and Nintendo's various consoles are all closed systems, with significantly more stringent rules than anything in the mobile market. In many cases, even starting to develop an application for the console requires the prior approval of the manufacturer.

nradov 6y ago

The App Store is only one piece of Apple's business model. They also earn significant profits from hardware sales (including seriously overpriced accessories), extended warranties, and content licensing.

simion314 6y ago

you mean that OSX users are cracking apps a lot? or they get scammed all the time? IMO the OSX security feels more sane for me, you let power users to decide if they want to allow apps to do "dangerous" things and you give the option for users to run stuff they downloaded or they wrote.