26 ms·

As someone from the third world this leaves a very bad feeling if it happens. I do expect it runs into legal hurdles before that. Neither Apple nor Google have

As someone from the third world this leaves a very bad feeling if it happens. I do expect it runs into legal hurdles before that. Neither Apple nor Google have found TikTok problematic enough to delist them from their app stores. Neither is there charges that TikTok may have broken US laws. Banning something which hasn't broken US laws, on arbitrary grounds shouldn't be possible. The President shouldn't have authority to ban anything at all let alone an app available through privately operated app stores. Also dictating which apps an individual can install/not install shouldn't be the job of the Federal Government. All indication is that the president does not have authority to execute an outright ban of the thing. Also what alarms me the veil of secrecy on the procedings. The proceeding of the CFIUS should be made public in this regard. At this point US is seemingly acting like a dictatorship with very less transparency. Policies and decisions should be debated and argued before they are executed, not merely justified after the fact. That's what US and a few oher democracies have turned to doing in recent years. Ultimately I feel that it is US who has been more to blame (contrary to much of Western media coverage) for the deteriorating US-China relationship, and drumming up the chorus for a new coldwar. Chinese policy seems to have not significantly changed in the last 5 years towards the US, but on the other hand US seemed ever more keen and eger to pursue a hostile attitude towards China. With the pandemic and with genral economic malice affecting much of the world, I don't think a path of increasing hostility and conflict is what the world needs.

young_unixer 6y ago
This. I am from a mediocre country and had always admired how Americans defended freedom (specially freedom of speech and right to bear arms). But now they seem not to care anymore. Just throw all our freedoms out the window because China is spying on us. Even in this forum, the general sentiment is that it should just be banned.
- la6471 6y ago
  Sometimes my friend , enough is enough. Maybe for a change China Communist Party can discover the Covid vaccine and give democratic rights to its people. How about that?
  - nobody0 6y ago
    China is already set to give vaccines to its people and other people from other poorer countries.
- MangoCoffee 6y ago
  American withdrawal from the global stage. It does not start with Trump but Clinton. After Cold War, little by little American is retreating from the world stage and letting go of its "leader" position. Trump just speed up this process. You can see it in WHO. Every president before Trump have neglect it. It will be an interesting time when American completely exit the world stage.
  - javagram 6y ago
    Clinton established the WTO and signed NAFTA. He also saber rattled against China during the taiwan straits crisis, bombed plenty of foreign countries, went to war over Kosovo in violation of the UN charter, and various other actions. I don’t really see how that’s “withdrawal from the global stage”
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      Not to mention what went down in Russia: https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/06/26/russian-election-interference-meddling/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/06/26/russian-el...
  - x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
    What's your reason for dragging Clinton into this?
dkobia 6y ago
As much as I agree and being from a "third world" country myself, I can still remember China banning Facebook and Google in 2009/2010. Everyone has had to bend over backwards to gain access to the Chinese market while giving them free reign to the rest of the world.
- andrewPP 6y ago
  Facebook and Google quit China because they didn't want to obey the speech control policy which not as democratic as in the U.S. They could have continued to operate in China had they chosen to follow the rules set up by Chinese regulators. With the TikTok it is a different story. They are willing to obey all laws of US and the Trump admistration still wants to ban it without sound reason. This is ridiculous from my point of view because the authoritarian Chinese government allows the US companies to operate in China when they follow their rules, but the democratic US government doesn't allow Chinese companies to operate in the US when they do obey US laws. The only explanation to me is that the president is thinking in a way similar to curing COVID with disinfectant injection.
  - fennecfoxen 6y ago
    How facile to compare the situations of companies "when they follow [China's] rules" and "when they obey US laws" as if they are equivalent. America is being arbitrary, capricious, and unfair, in contradiction to the neutral and generally applicable law in America. But China's legal system has been arbitrary and capricious for decades, and is rotten to the core, consistently elevating the whims of the ruling party over rights and due process. To use nonsense numbers: the US is designed to be 0% arbitrary but is being 20% arbitrary here. China is designed to be 90% arbitrary all the time. Clearly means China can keep out all the firms and be virtuous, but when the US keeps out any firms for any reason they're unfair and wicked!
    - andrewPP 6y ago
      The problem with the Chinese government/legal system is well known for long and most Chinese people wish it can improve over time. It is weird to see that some people in the US wants to celebrate and justify the deterioration of their designed-to-be-perfect system.
seanmcdirmid 6y ago
Not that it justifies our behavior, but I can’t help but cringe a bit when considering how China locks American companies out of its market but expects better access for Chinese companies in the American market. America-Chinese relations started going downhill in 2009 when China thought it prudent to start blocking most Americans services, America just took a decade to follow up with similar bad behavior.
- DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
  > China locks American companies out of its market This is something that is often claimed, but it doesn't reflect reality. China does not generally lock American companies out of its market. In fact, American companies have a far greater presence in the Chinese market than vice versa. For example, take a look at the 2017 China sales figures for a few American companies: [1] * Apple: $44.7 billion * Intel: $14.8 billion * Qualcomm: $14.6 billion * Boeing: $11.9 billion * Micron: $10.4 billion If you walk into any mall in China, you'll see American brands everywhere. Starbucks, KFC, McDonald's, tons of fashion brands, and on and on. The basic fact underlying all of this is that for decades, foreign direct investment flowed essentially in one direction: from the US to China. That reflected the fact that the US had capital, while China had labor. It's only recently that Chinese companies have begun expanding abroad, and FDI has started to go in the opposite direction. 1. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trade-war-watch-these-are-the-us-companies-with-the-most-at-stake-in-china-2018-03-29 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trade-war-watch-these-are-...
  - lovehashbrowns 6y ago
    Why is Google search not available in China?
  - polartx 6y ago
    I worked for a company that provides web and app tracking (kinda like google analytics, but more granular data and user metrics). Any Chinese prospect that engaged with us had to use a myriad of proxies because the Chinese govt blocked our American servers. Also no Chinese prospect ever paid a dime. They would beg for extended trials and bring engineers in to ask questions about the software, requesting server side code, all the while they attempted rip off our product, after a year I became ‘too engaged’ with other projects to pursue opportunities with Chinese companies.
solarhoma 6y ago
Google and Apple have not delisted tiktok because China is a huge market for the companies. They are playing the part of Switzerland.
- dgellow 6y ago
  > They are playing the part of Switzerland. What does that even mean?
  - joubert 6y ago
    I would interpret that analogy as them not taking sides, i.e. remain neutral.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- trnglina 6y ago
  Apple, maybe, but Google services don't operate in China.
KingOfCoders 6y ago
We'll see when the EU uses that playbook against the US.
- LordFast 6y ago
  Actually that is exactly how it's playing out these days. The "circular firing squad" has now been taken to the international stage.
  - KingOfCoders 6y ago
    Not yet I assume, currently FAANG will need to pay a digital tax, taking the TikTok example Google or Microsoft would be forced to sell business to a competitor in the EU.
CorruptVoices 6y ago
I'm completely with you. This is embarrassing and I want to remind you the majority of people did not elect Trump. I can only hope that this never happens again.
katzgrau 6y ago
> The President shouldn't have authority to ban anything at all let alone an app available through privately operated app stores. If it's a matter of national security, yes, he should. Whether it's ultimately seen as an abuse of power can be decided later in courts or via election.
- vkou 6y ago
  TikTok is not a national security problem, no more than Whatsapp or Telegram or Skype is a national security problem. The last time I asked folks here to explain to me why they think its a national security problem, I got a list of arguments that were just a little bit less plausible then those for the existence of Santa Claus. Just because Trump says something (while providing no proof) does not make it true.
  - bladegash 6y ago
    A straight forward argument that comes to my mind is TikTok being used in the manner Cambridge Analytica used Facebook. Except in this case, it is being done by a State sponsored entity with vast resources (monetarily and people-wise). Further, instead of it being used to help a candidate become elected, it's purpose would be to influence foreign opinions of China/the PRC. That doesn't sound implausible to me.
    - flywheel 6y ago
      My wife is on TikTok for at least an hour a night if not more - I've never once seen or heard anything pro-china or anything that would otherwise influence her opinion about China. Not once. It's all content from US social media whores.
      - throwaway69123 6y ago
        You are focused on outputs what about inputs?
        6y ago
frequentnapper 6y ago
Well then China should not actively be sabotaging western businesses and governments through various means. You get what you sow. About time somebody took a hard stance towards the Chinese govt.
- YarickR2 6y ago
  Good bye Tesla Shanghai factory, then
  - refurb 6y ago
    Maybe. It’s not like the Chinese aren’t rationale actors either. The US does something and China is no doubt brainstorming what they could do, without hurting themselves or jeopardizing their long term economic plan. Could retaliation include kicking out Tesla? Sure. Would they? Who knows.
jchw 6y ago
As a United States citizen, I don’t agree that we’re obligated to play fairly with someone who brazenly refuses to do so for us. That’s all I really have to say about this.
- chrischen 6y ago
  What is “fair”? We believe in a free market economy. There is no way to “game” it because by definition a free market has to be free and what arises from it is what is supposed to be. China has a planned economy. They pick and choose what happens economically and they have a heavy hand in manipulating it. It honestly sounds like we want to have our cake and eat it too. The free market is the best way to develop a healthy economy, and it does not require the generosity of foreign players to function. Fundamentally we’re just being rattled by the economic rise of China which is shaking the beliefs of some free market capitalists.
  - jchw 6y ago
    It would not be having our cake and eating it too to show the CCP the door. They don’t need to give us access to their market and we don’t need to give access to ours. American companies need to go though Chinese entities to do business in China. Why not the reverse?
  - whoevercares 6y ago
    China “planned” its tech industry? You gonna be kidding me
    - sidlls 6y ago
      China has its fingers deep in the pie of every tech company there, especially the ones with even minimal foreign ownership. It might not be planned in the quaint sense of the old Communist 5 year plans, but it’s certainly a modern iteration of the concept.
  - albacur 6y ago
    The U.S. doesn't have purely free market economy; it's regulated to prevent abuse from bad actors and it enters into trade deals to advance its strategic interests. This is true of all countries. I have mixed feelings about TikTok, but the claim that the U.S. can't protect itself from a hostile trade partner or a security threat because it "believes in a free market economy" is utterly baseless.
jorblumesea 6y ago
I think it's just treating China to their own bad behavior in order for them to "shape up". If they want access to Western markets they need to provide similar openness. There's no obligation to treat China fairly if they do not treat the rest of the world with fairness.
m0zg 6y ago
I'm old enough to remember how in 2017 people were un-ironically talking about putting Zuck in jail because Russia allegedly ("allegedly" because it was never proven this was state sponsored) spent $100K to organize some pro- and anti-Trump protests on Facebook, and Facebook allowed Cambridge Analytica do essentially the same data harvesting as Obama's campaign in 2012. But a Chinese communist party controlled media company with tens of millions of subscribers in the US which was _caught spying_ by both Apple _and_ Google is totally fine. Is election interference and spying done by China good somehow? I don't get what you're arguing here. For a litmus test, consider whether you'd hypothetically be fine with a massive social network operating on US soil that's run by e.g. USSR, Taliban, ISIS, or North Korea, ahead of what many think is one of the most consequential elections in our lifetimes.
- em500 6y ago
  I think what OP is arguing is fairly straightforward: if TikTok violated actual laws, take them to court, if they didn't, leave them alone. Is the USA supposed to be country that respects the rule of law, or a banana republic directed by the whims of some supreme leader?
  - m0zg 6y ago
    The wheels of justice turn too slowly for election interference, which a state controlled company like ByteDance is almost certain to perpetrate. There's even plausible deniability - you could blame it on "algorithms". Succinctly, here's why TikTok will get banned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSTHgoaVtSw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSTHgoaVtSw This is also why Google, Twitter and Facebook will get their asses reamed at some point if they continue doing what they're doing.
    - javagram 6y ago
      > The wheels of justice turn too slowly for election interference The logical solution would to start spinning the wheels faster, not take authoritarian action. Of course, the FEC right now doesn’t even have a quorum and has only had one for about a month in the last year, due to negligence by the President and Congress. It’s obvious the politicians aren’t that concerned about the “wheels of justice” when it comes to election ethics. “ Donald Trump nominated James E. Trainor III on September 14, 2017. After he was confirmed by the U.S. Senate on May 19, 2020, the commission's quorum was briefly restored,[8] and one meeting was held online, due to the coronavirus pandemic, on June 18, 2020.[9] A week later, however, Caroline Hunter resigned, with the result that the FEC once again lacked a quorum.[10]”
osrec 6y ago
I honestly feel the ban may well be a direct result of Tiktok users helping boycott a political rally in Tulsa. They were expecting hundreds of thousands to turn up, but only a few thousand turned up, leaving the organisers utterly embarrassed.
- hurrdurr2 6y ago
  Totally agree with you. We all know Trump takes things personally so this is a great way for him to get back at tiktok. I hardly think he cares about the "security" aspect of it.
  - osrec 6y ago
    Yes, I think a guy that compromises his own country's security by inadvertently sharing secret info on social media doesn't care/know much about security in the first place.
- zmmmmm 6y ago
  I guess I'm even more cynical. I don't think it's an accident that Zuck is playing much more friendly to Trump than people may have expected. This would be the perfect quid pro quo. I hate to think it could be happening like that, and it sits purely in conspiracy theory land. However it is completely consistent with the level of corruption from the administration in other areas and amoral approach by Facebook to its business.
  - osrec 6y ago
    Well, Tiktok has taken all the younger crowd away from Facebook and Instagram. Your suggestion is not beyond the realms of possibility for a guy like Zuck (I always think back to the dumb f comment he made a few years ago to remind myself of how he views his users).
    - javagram 6y ago
      “A few years ago” was 17 years ago, for reference, when he was a 19 year old college student. Facebook is working on Reels to compete with TikTok, but I’m sure Zuck would be happy if Trump takes out the competition for him. There may not be an explicit quid-pro-quo but he’s obviously trying to navigate the political situation to avoid either Democrats or Republicans taking real steps to harm his company, since both are demanding Facebook start altering what users see to promote their political causes.
flywheel 6y ago
This is just Trump being Trump - a whiny dictator man-child bully that loves to piss off people that don't like him. My guess is that TikTok is wildly popular in "blue states" and not so much in "red states" and he's just doing this to piss off the liberals.
YarickR2 6y ago
From world policeman to world bully, in 4 short years
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  As we've seen recently, policemen are often also bullies. This applies to essentially all monopolies on violence, including the one of the US.
albacur 6y ago
> Chinese policy seems to have not significantly changed in the last 5 years towards the US, but on the other hand US seemed ever more keen and eger to pursue a hostile attitude towards China. For decades, China has blocked U.S. companies from fair competition, reneged on trade deals when it suits them, backed out of industrial partnerships after extracting the IP it deems useful, and generally been a bad trade partner. I agree that the president shouldn't have authority to arbitrarily block a product or company (and ultimately he doesn't, he'll need broader support among elected officials), but it's absurd to suggest that the U.S. should blindly accept hostile behavior for decades on end without reacting, or else itself be labeled "hostile."
- dirtyid 6y ago
  The ongoing deterrence hole when it comes to US-China relations in variety of domains has been acknowledged by China watchers consistently in the past 10 years. The issue is whether current admins' China-hawks tough on China approach is smart and good for long-term US interests or merely counterproductive electioneering / domestic distraction which is... characteristic of behavior when it comes to managing other foreign relations so far. Nvm US has been quietly undermining China with Asia pivot for 10 years - many people are consumed by Trump/Pompeo and previously Bolton/Banning grievance politics because publicly clapping back feels good. Same ppl have no problem recognizing US foreign policy everywhere has been catastrophic for US interests in the last 4 years, but go full smooth brain cheering leading mode because it's China. Like holy shit, it's Pompeo. Folks can pretend/hope broken clock is right twice a day or realize people with bad history of foreign policy is maybe just bad at foreign policy. These are individuals who have no problem shaping America into the enemy it wants to fight.
- quotemstr 6y ago
  The problem here isn't TikTok being banned. I couldn't care less about TikTok. The problem here is singling out an individual entity for punishment outside an established framework of laws just because we don't like it. You can be tough on China without becoming China. Nobody is suggesting that China's trade policy go unchallenged. What I do want is a policy including evidence, recourse, and the possibility of compliance. I have seen no explanation whatsoever of why TikTok is so urgently terrible that we can't deal with whatever it is that the company is doing using rules --- and this strange silence is coming from people ordinarily keen on that old "government of laws, not men" principle. Everything is weird these days.
csomar 6y ago
There is another possibility: The U.S. government (or Trump) has dirt already on TikTok which might explain why their pressure did work. It's up to speculation why they chose to go this route instead of imploding the whole thing. A possible explanation is preserve Tiktok jobs/app in the U.S. but it became U.S. run and controlled.
partiallypro 6y ago
> Ultimately I feel that it is US who has been more to blame (contrary to much of Western media coverage) for the deteriorating US-China relationship, and drumming up the chorus for a new coldwar. Chinese policy seems to have not significantly changed in the last 5 years towards the US, but on the other hand US seemed ever more keen and eger to pursue a hostile attitude towards China. In what universe? The Chinese global stance has changed drastically over the past 5 years, and they have continued to deteriorate western companies and forced companies to appease their government, or the CCP will ban those companies, steal their IP and clone then. So far not a single soul has stood up to them, for fear of losing out. They've expanded their power in the South China Sea, laying claim to land and passages that aren't theirs at all and never have been. They fund North Korea as a satellite state to antagonize its neighbors, and turn in people that escape back to NK so they can be put in slave camps. The new security law gives them reach beyond their own borders to crack down on people that criticize the CCP. Not to mention they have literal concentration camps where they are harvesting organs, hair, using them as slave labor and stealing their possessions. Ask other Asian countries how they feel about China's slow and steady encroachment of their authoritarian regime that is anti-freedom.
- getmeoutofhere 6y ago
  > Not to mention they have literal concentration camps where they are harvesting organs, hair, using them as slave labor and stealing their possessions. If you dig into this deeper, this is literally fake news. The sources for these claims are either the World Uighur Congress, a NED funded organization, or Adrian Zenz, a Christian fundamentalist who believes in the rapture, is Anti-LGBT, and praised the Nazis. If you are so inclined, you can actually visit Xinjiang yourself and ask Uighurs there about the situation. China has been actively been encouraging foreign inspectors to visit Xinjiang to see the situation. Given that America was wrong (or blatantly lied) about WMDs, Iraqis stealing incubators, Iraqis murdering babies in Kuwait, and is a geopolitical rival to China, Im doubtful about some of these claims.
  - partiallypro 6y ago
    You have to be joking. There have been Uighurs that have escaped, there have been journalists that have gone there...the Uighur population in that province is DOWN 90%, nearly overnight. We have video, satellite evidence, evidence of slavery, evidence of their hair being sold on the market, of their organs being sold on the market. You're either an agent of China or have fallen victim to their lies. After reading your bio, I'm not surprised that it's full of comments defending the CCP.
NotSammyHagar 6y ago
My belief is absent some specific illegal behavior, he can't really 'suspend' an app or a company. He can say he will, he can make it difficult for them, but it's probably going to be stopped by a court.
ekianjo 6y ago
> The President shouldn't have authority to ban anything at all let alone an app available through privately operated app stores. China routinely ban anything they don't like. How do you feel about that? Do you make appeal to fair competition to them?
pldr1234 6y ago
As someone from a country that has seen the first hand effects of Chinese influence on critical levels of government and social influence: This leaves a very good feeling if it happens.
archsurface 6y ago
Hong Kong, Huawei, Uighurs, South China Sea, India... Your comment seems to be lacking balance.
- s3r3nity 6y ago
  Wow...CCP supporters out in full-force right now downvoting anything critical of China.
  - dang 6y ago
    This breaks the site guidelines. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here. If you need explanation about why, see https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme....
altaria 6y ago
In this specific case we are dealing with an app that gives a company beholden to our enemy the power to snoop on the behavior of tens of millions of our citizens. In the real world, when you must take into account the realities of power politics sometimes extraordinary steps have to be taken. China has been engaging in cyber espionage against the US for decades. Like it or not, we are engaged in a struggle with them because we have fundamentally different political worldviews. These two worldviews cannot coexist.
humaniania 6y ago
I blame China having over 1,000,000 of it's citizens in concentration "re-education" camps for the deteriorating relationship. What kind of leadership allows that type of behavior? Not a competent one. It's shameful that this is being allowed to happen. I support measures to limit the propaganda being spread by China's government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
Wingman4l7 6y ago
> Chinese policy seems to have not significantly changed in the last 5 years towards the US, but on the other hand US seemed ever more keen and eger to pursue a hostile attitude towards China. Years of concentrated industrial espionage from China against US companies says otherwise.
- throwaway69123 6y ago
  They are technically correct the hostile policy hasnt changed in the last 5 years.
s3r3nity 6y ago
Stop with this CCP propaganda. China blocked Facebook and Google because those apps gave access to significant information that the government couldn't censor outright. The scales were never even, so now this is just a much needed correction.
s3r3nity 6y ago
China doesn't allow western companies to operate freely in their country, so why should US shoulder the blame here?
scoot_718 6y ago
> Banning something which hasn't broken US laws, on arbitrary grounds shouldn't be possible. Of course it should. They control their store fronts. This is an extremist position you are taking. > Also dictating which apps an individual can install/not install shouldn't be the job of the Federal Government. They aren't doing that. Install the app from an APK if you care so much. Protecting their citizens from hostile state actors is very much in their purview and mandate. > At this point US is seemingly acting like a dictatorship with very less transparency. Nonsense. TikTok isn't a US citizen. And they need to obey regulations. Ensuring US infrastructure and the private data of their citizens is protected is the sort of thing a democracy does. > Chinese policy seems to have not significantly changed in the last 5 years towards the US, I agree actually. They've been pulling this shit for more than a decade now. War on all fronts except military. I'm glad the world is starting to wake up to it.
DanielBMarkham 6y ago
Looks like the bullet list of things we might complain about, almost randomly presented. Since there's no reasoning presented, I guess there's no point engaging?
iliveinchina 6y ago
> Chinese policy seems to have not significantly changed in the last 5 years towards the US Chinese policy "towards the US" may be too narrow a view. Within the past 5 years, Xi Jinping has eliminated the scheduled 10-year leadership transition which served to alternate power between various elite factions in China. This has put him in a position to maintain leadership for life. After Xi achieved this, China has seen numerous significant domestic and foreign policy shifts. As China has become more of a near-peer global power with the US, Chinese domestic politics have become more relevant to everyone.
FriendlyNormie 6y ago
No one gives a fuck about your worthless opinion you insignificant peasant. Shut the fuck up you windbag.
jbgud 6y ago
>>Neither Apple nor Google have found TikTok problematic enough Security researchers have found it grossly problematic though. 1. https://www.proofpoint.com/us/blog/threat-protection/understanding-information-tiktok-gathers-and-stores https://www.proofpoint.com/us/blog/threat-protection/underst... 2. https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/tiktok-flaws-allowed-hackers-to-delete-videos-steal-user-info/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/tiktok-flaws-...
- chillee 6y ago
  Did you read the articles? From the first link: > All in all, TikTok should be treated like any social media app: one that can be used with relative safety if you’re aware of the information it gathers and what it does with the data. The second one seems like a security vulnerability found in TikTok - what separates that vulnerability from say, this one that allowed any user to delete any YouTube video? https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/374892/google-fixed-a-vulnerability-that-allowed-any-youtube-user-to-delete-any-video/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/374892/google-fixed-a-vu...
Temasik 6y ago
china cheats, they even cheat their own kind take that for argument
Guffton 6y ago
Is there a "third world" anymore?[1] [1]https://www.gapminder.org/videos/hans-rosling-ted-2006-debunking-myths-about-the-third-world/ https://www.gapminder.org/videos/hans-rosling-ted-2006-debun...
Mekantis 6y ago
National security issues override your freedom to use a spying app by a country's primary geopolitical opponent. That's just how it is. You paint China as this innocent party and the US as the sole aggressor, which is utter hogwash. I'm not sure whether you're intentionally or just ignorantly ignoring all the things China has done and continues to do in the past 20 years such as stealing IP, price dumping, etc. They're not the good guy here and anybody outside China should be wary of them.
neokrish 6y ago
This comment isn’t based on facts. I suggest you read this (https://www.lawfareblog.com/tiktok-and-law-primer-case-you-need-explain-things-your-teenager https://www.lawfareblog.com/tiktok-and-law-primer-case-you-n...) to get the legal basis right. You are free to disagree or call out US in an emotional tirade, but have the facts right on why the President can make these decisions. Additionally, painting China as a mere victim here ignores the complexity of the geopolitical tensions we are currently facing.

young_unixer 6y ago

This. I am from a mediocre country and had always admired how Americans defended freedom (specially freedom of speech and right to bear arms). But now they seem not to care anymore. Just throw all our freedoms out the window because China is spying on us. Even in this forum, the general sentiment is that it should just be banned.

la6471 6y ago
Sometimes my friend , enough is enough. Maybe for a change China Communist Party can discover the Covid vaccine and give democratic rights to its people. How about that?
- nobody0 6y ago
  China is already set to give vaccines to its people and other people from other poorer countries.
MangoCoffee 6y ago
American withdrawal from the global stage. It does not start with Trump but Clinton. After Cold War, little by little American is retreating from the world stage and letting go of its "leader" position. Trump just speed up this process. You can see it in WHO. Every president before Trump have neglect it. It will be an interesting time when American completely exit the world stage.
- javagram 6y ago
  Clinton established the WTO and signed NAFTA. He also saber rattled against China during the taiwan straits crisis, bombed plenty of foreign countries, went to war over Kosovo in violation of the UN charter, and various other actions. I don’t really see how that’s “withdrawal from the global stage”
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    Not to mention what went down in Russia: https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/06/26/russian-election-interference-meddling/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/06/26/russian-el...
- x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
  What's your reason for dragging Clinton into this?

dkobia 6y ago

As much as I agree and being from a "third world" country myself, I can still remember China banning Facebook and Google in 2009/2010. Everyone has had to bend over backwards to gain access to the Chinese market while giving them free reign to the rest of the world.

andrewPP 6y ago
Facebook and Google quit China because they didn't want to obey the speech control policy which not as democratic as in the U.S. They could have continued to operate in China had they chosen to follow the rules set up by Chinese regulators. With the TikTok it is a different story. They are willing to obey all laws of US and the Trump admistration still wants to ban it without sound reason. This is ridiculous from my point of view because the authoritarian Chinese government allows the US companies to operate in China when they follow their rules, but the democratic US government doesn't allow Chinese companies to operate in the US when they do obey US laws. The only explanation to me is that the president is thinking in a way similar to curing COVID with disinfectant injection.
- fennecfoxen 6y ago
  How facile to compare the situations of companies "when they follow [China's] rules" and "when they obey US laws" as if they are equivalent. America is being arbitrary, capricious, and unfair, in contradiction to the neutral and generally applicable law in America. But China's legal system has been arbitrary and capricious for decades, and is rotten to the core, consistently elevating the whims of the ruling party over rights and due process. To use nonsense numbers: the US is designed to be 0% arbitrary but is being 20% arbitrary here. China is designed to be 90% arbitrary all the time. Clearly means China can keep out all the firms and be virtuous, but when the US keeps out any firms for any reason they're unfair and wicked!
  - andrewPP 6y ago
    The problem with the Chinese government/legal system is well known for long and most Chinese people wish it can improve over time. It is weird to see that some people in the US wants to celebrate and justify the deterioration of their designed-to-be-perfect system.

seanmcdirmid 6y ago

Not that it justifies our behavior, but I can’t help but cringe a bit when considering how China locks American companies out of its market but expects better access for Chinese companies in the American market. America-Chinese relations started going downhill in 2009 when China thought it prudent to start blocking most Americans services, America just took a decade to follow up with similar bad behavior.

DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
> China locks American companies out of its market This is something that is often claimed, but it doesn't reflect reality. China does not generally lock American companies out of its market. In fact, American companies have a far greater presence in the Chinese market than vice versa. For example, take a look at the 2017 China sales figures for a few American companies: [1] * Apple: $44.7 billion * Intel: $14.8 billion * Qualcomm: $14.6 billion * Boeing: $11.9 billion * Micron: $10.4 billion If you walk into any mall in China, you'll see American brands everywhere. Starbucks, KFC, McDonald's, tons of fashion brands, and on and on. The basic fact underlying all of this is that for decades, foreign direct investment flowed essentially in one direction: from the US to China. That reflected the fact that the US had capital, while China had labor. It's only recently that Chinese companies have begun expanding abroad, and FDI has started to go in the opposite direction. 1. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trade-war-watch-these-are-the-us-companies-with-the-most-at-stake-in-china-2018-03-29 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trade-war-watch-these-are-...
- lovehashbrowns 6y ago
  Why is Google search not available in China?
- polartx 6y ago
  I worked for a company that provides web and app tracking (kinda like google analytics, but more granular data and user metrics). Any Chinese prospect that engaged with us had to use a myriad of proxies because the Chinese govt blocked our American servers. Also no Chinese prospect ever paid a dime. They would beg for extended trials and bring engineers in to ask questions about the software, requesting server side code, all the while they attempted rip off our product, after a year I became ‘too engaged’ with other projects to pursue opportunities with Chinese companies.

solarhoma 6y ago

Google and Apple have not delisted tiktok because China is a huge market for the companies. They are playing the part of Switzerland.

dgellow 6y ago
> They are playing the part of Switzerland. What does that even mean?
- joubert 6y ago
  I would interpret that analogy as them not taking sides, i.e. remain neutral.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
trnglina 6y ago
Apple, maybe, but Google services don't operate in China.

KingOfCoders 6y ago

We'll see when the EU uses that playbook against the US.

LordFast 6y ago
Actually that is exactly how it's playing out these days. The "circular firing squad" has now been taken to the international stage.
- KingOfCoders 6y ago
  Not yet I assume, currently FAANG will need to pay a digital tax, taking the TikTok example Google or Microsoft would be forced to sell business to a competitor in the EU.

CorruptVoices 6y ago

I'm completely with you. This is embarrassing and I want to remind you the majority of people did not elect Trump. I can only hope that this never happens again.

katzgrau 6y ago

> The President shouldn't have authority to ban anything at all let alone an app available through privately operated app stores. If it's a matter of national security, yes, he should. Whether it's ultimately seen as an abuse of power can be decided later in courts or via election.

vkou 6y ago
TikTok is not a national security problem, no more than Whatsapp or Telegram or Skype is a national security problem. The last time I asked folks here to explain to me why they think its a national security problem, I got a list of arguments that were just a little bit less plausible then those for the existence of Santa Claus. Just because Trump says something (while providing no proof) does not make it true.
- bladegash 6y ago
  A straight forward argument that comes to my mind is TikTok being used in the manner Cambridge Analytica used Facebook. Except in this case, it is being done by a State sponsored entity with vast resources (monetarily and people-wise). Further, instead of it being used to help a candidate become elected, it's purpose would be to influence foreign opinions of China/the PRC. That doesn't sound implausible to me.
  - flywheel 6y ago
    My wife is on TikTok for at least an hour a night if not more - I've never once seen or heard anything pro-china or anything that would otherwise influence her opinion about China. Not once. It's all content from US social media whores.
    - throwaway69123 6y ago
      You are focused on outputs what about inputs?
      - 6y ago

frequentnapper 6y ago

Well then China should not actively be sabotaging western businesses and governments through various means. You get what you sow. About time somebody took a hard stance towards the Chinese govt.

YarickR2 6y ago
Good bye Tesla Shanghai factory, then
- refurb 6y ago
  Maybe. It’s not like the Chinese aren’t rationale actors either. The US does something and China is no doubt brainstorming what they could do, without hurting themselves or jeopardizing their long term economic plan. Could retaliation include kicking out Tesla? Sure. Would they? Who knows.

jchw 6y ago

As a United States citizen, I don’t agree that we’re obligated to play fairly with someone who brazenly refuses to do so for us. That’s all I really have to say about this.

chrischen 6y ago
What is “fair”? We believe in a free market economy. There is no way to “game” it because by definition a free market has to be free and what arises from it is what is supposed to be. China has a planned economy. They pick and choose what happens economically and they have a heavy hand in manipulating it. It honestly sounds like we want to have our cake and eat it too. The free market is the best way to develop a healthy economy, and it does not require the generosity of foreign players to function. Fundamentally we’re just being rattled by the economic rise of China which is shaking the beliefs of some free market capitalists.
- jchw 6y ago
  It would not be having our cake and eating it too to show the CCP the door. They don’t need to give us access to their market and we don’t need to give access to ours. American companies need to go though Chinese entities to do business in China. Why not the reverse?
- whoevercares 6y ago
  China “planned” its tech industry? You gonna be kidding me
  - sidlls 6y ago
    China has its fingers deep in the pie of every tech company there, especially the ones with even minimal foreign ownership. It might not be planned in the quaint sense of the old Communist 5 year plans, but it’s certainly a modern iteration of the concept.
- albacur 6y ago
  The U.S. doesn't have purely free market economy; it's regulated to prevent abuse from bad actors and it enters into trade deals to advance its strategic interests. This is true of all countries. I have mixed feelings about TikTok, but the claim that the U.S. can't protect itself from a hostile trade partner or a security threat because it "believes in a free market economy" is utterly baseless.

jorblumesea 6y ago

I think it's just treating China to their own bad behavior in order for them to "shape up". If they want access to Western markets they need to provide similar openness. There's no obligation to treat China fairly if they do not treat the rest of the world with fairness.

m0zg 6y ago

I'm old enough to remember how in 2017 people were un-ironically talking about putting Zuck in jail because Russia allegedly ("allegedly" because it was never proven this was state sponsored) spent $100K to organize some pro- and anti-Trump protests on Facebook, and Facebook allowed Cambridge Analytica do essentially the same data harvesting as Obama's campaign in 2012. But a Chinese communist party controlled media company with tens of millions of subscribers in the US which was _caught spying_ by both Apple _and_ Google is totally fine. Is election interference and spying done by China good somehow? I don't get what you're arguing here. For a litmus test, consider whether you'd hypothetically be fine with a massive social network operating on US soil that's run by e.g. USSR, Taliban, ISIS, or North Korea, ahead of what many think is one of the most consequential elections in our lifetimes.

em500 6y ago
I think what OP is arguing is fairly straightforward: if TikTok violated actual laws, take them to court, if they didn't, leave them alone. Is the USA supposed to be country that respects the rule of law, or a banana republic directed by the whims of some supreme leader?
- m0zg 6y ago
  The wheels of justice turn too slowly for election interference, which a state controlled company like ByteDance is almost certain to perpetrate. There's even plausible deniability - you could blame it on "algorithms". Succinctly, here's why TikTok will get banned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSTHgoaVtSw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSTHgoaVtSw This is also why Google, Twitter and Facebook will get their asses reamed at some point if they continue doing what they're doing.
  - javagram 6y ago
    > The wheels of justice turn too slowly for election interference The logical solution would to start spinning the wheels faster, not take authoritarian action. Of course, the FEC right now doesn’t even have a quorum and has only had one for about a month in the last year, due to negligence by the President and Congress. It’s obvious the politicians aren’t that concerned about the “wheels of justice” when it comes to election ethics. “ Donald Trump nominated James E. Trainor III on September 14, 2017. After he was confirmed by the U.S. Senate on May 19, 2020, the commission's quorum was briefly restored,[8] and one meeting was held online, due to the coronavirus pandemic, on June 18, 2020.[9] A week later, however, Caroline Hunter resigned, with the result that the FEC once again lacked a quorum.[10]”

osrec 6y ago

I honestly feel the ban may well be a direct result of Tiktok users helping boycott a political rally in Tulsa. They were expecting hundreds of thousands to turn up, but only a few thousand turned up, leaving the organisers utterly embarrassed.

hurrdurr2 6y ago
Totally agree with you. We all know Trump takes things personally so this is a great way for him to get back at tiktok. I hardly think he cares about the "security" aspect of it.
- osrec 6y ago
  Yes, I think a guy that compromises his own country's security by inadvertently sharing secret info on social media doesn't care/know much about security in the first place.
zmmmmm 6y ago
I guess I'm even more cynical. I don't think it's an accident that Zuck is playing much more friendly to Trump than people may have expected. This would be the perfect quid pro quo. I hate to think it could be happening like that, and it sits purely in conspiracy theory land. However it is completely consistent with the level of corruption from the administration in other areas and amoral approach by Facebook to its business.
- osrec 6y ago
  Well, Tiktok has taken all the younger crowd away from Facebook and Instagram. Your suggestion is not beyond the realms of possibility for a guy like Zuck (I always think back to the dumb f comment he made a few years ago to remind myself of how he views his users).
  - javagram 6y ago
    “A few years ago” was 17 years ago, for reference, when he was a 19 year old college student. Facebook is working on Reels to compete with TikTok, but I’m sure Zuck would be happy if Trump takes out the competition for him. There may not be an explicit quid-pro-quo but he’s obviously trying to navigate the political situation to avoid either Democrats or Republicans taking real steps to harm his company, since both are demanding Facebook start altering what users see to promote their political causes.

flywheel 6y ago

This is just Trump being Trump - a whiny dictator man-child bully that loves to piss off people that don't like him. My guess is that TikTok is wildly popular in "blue states" and not so much in "red states" and he's just doing this to piss off the liberals.

YarickR2 6y ago

From world policeman to world bully, in 4 short years

sudosysgen 6y ago
As we've seen recently, policemen are often also bullies. This applies to essentially all monopolies on violence, including the one of the US.

albacur 6y ago

> Chinese policy seems to have not significantly changed in the last 5 years towards the US, but on the other hand US seemed ever more keen and eger to pursue a hostile attitude towards China. For decades, China has blocked U.S. companies from fair competition, reneged on trade deals when it suits them, backed out of industrial partnerships after extracting the IP it deems useful, and generally been a bad trade partner. I agree that the president shouldn't have authority to arbitrarily block a product or company (and ultimately he doesn't, he'll need broader support among elected officials), but it's absurd to suggest that the U.S. should blindly accept hostile behavior for decades on end without reacting, or else itself be labeled "hostile."

dirtyid 6y ago
The ongoing deterrence hole when it comes to US-China relations in variety of domains has been acknowledged by China watchers consistently in the past 10 years. The issue is whether current admins' China-hawks tough on China approach is smart and good for long-term US interests or merely counterproductive electioneering / domestic distraction which is... characteristic of behavior when it comes to managing other foreign relations so far. Nvm US has been quietly undermining China with Asia pivot for 10 years - many people are consumed by Trump/Pompeo and previously Bolton/Banning grievance politics because publicly clapping back feels good. Same ppl have no problem recognizing US foreign policy everywhere has been catastrophic for US interests in the last 4 years, but go full smooth brain cheering leading mode because it's China. Like holy shit, it's Pompeo. Folks can pretend/hope broken clock is right twice a day or realize people with bad history of foreign policy is maybe just bad at foreign policy. These are individuals who have no problem shaping America into the enemy it wants to fight.
quotemstr 6y ago
The problem here isn't TikTok being banned. I couldn't care less about TikTok. The problem here is singling out an individual entity for punishment outside an established framework of laws just because we don't like it. You can be tough on China without becoming China. Nobody is suggesting that China's trade policy go unchallenged. What I do want is a policy including evidence, recourse, and the possibility of compliance. I have seen no explanation whatsoever of why TikTok is so urgently terrible that we can't deal with whatever it is that the company is doing using rules --- and this strange silence is coming from people ordinarily keen on that old "government of laws, not men" principle. Everything is weird these days.

csomar 6y ago

There is another possibility: The U.S. government (or Trump) has dirt already on TikTok which might explain why their pressure did work. It's up to speculation why they chose to go this route instead of imploding the whole thing. A possible explanation is preserve Tiktok jobs/app in the U.S. but it became U.S. run and controlled.

partiallypro 6y ago

> Ultimately I feel that it is US who has been more to blame (contrary to much of Western media coverage) for the deteriorating US-China relationship, and drumming up the chorus for a new coldwar. Chinese policy seems to have not significantly changed in the last 5 years towards the US, but on the other hand US seemed ever more keen and eger to pursue a hostile attitude towards China. In what universe? The Chinese global stance has changed drastically over the past 5 years, and they have continued to deteriorate western companies and forced companies to appease their government, or the CCP will ban those companies, steal their IP and clone then. So far not a single soul has stood up to them, for fear of losing out. They've expanded their power in the South China Sea, laying claim to land and passages that aren't theirs at all and never have been. They fund North Korea as a satellite state to antagonize its neighbors, and turn in people that escape back to NK so they can be put in slave camps. The new security law gives them reach beyond their own borders to crack down on people that criticize the CCP. Not to mention they have literal concentration camps where they are harvesting organs, hair, using them as slave labor and stealing their possessions. Ask other Asian countries how they feel about China's slow and steady encroachment of their authoritarian regime that is anti-freedom.

getmeoutofhere 6y ago
> Not to mention they have literal concentration camps where they are harvesting organs, hair, using them as slave labor and stealing their possessions. If you dig into this deeper, this is literally fake news. The sources for these claims are either the World Uighur Congress, a NED funded organization, or Adrian Zenz, a Christian fundamentalist who believes in the rapture, is Anti-LGBT, and praised the Nazis. If you are so inclined, you can actually visit Xinjiang yourself and ask Uighurs there about the situation. China has been actively been encouraging foreign inspectors to visit Xinjiang to see the situation. Given that America was wrong (or blatantly lied) about WMDs, Iraqis stealing incubators, Iraqis murdering babies in Kuwait, and is a geopolitical rival to China, Im doubtful about some of these claims.
- partiallypro 6y ago
  You have to be joking. There have been Uighurs that have escaped, there have been journalists that have gone there...the Uighur population in that province is DOWN 90%, nearly overnight. We have video, satellite evidence, evidence of slavery, evidence of their hair being sold on the market, of their organs being sold on the market. You're either an agent of China or have fallen victim to their lies. After reading your bio, I'm not surprised that it's full of comments defending the CCP.

NotSammyHagar 6y ago

My belief is absent some specific illegal behavior, he can't really 'suspend' an app or a company. He can say he will, he can make it difficult for them, but it's probably going to be stopped by a court.

ekianjo 6y ago

> The President shouldn't have authority to ban anything at all let alone an app available through privately operated app stores. China routinely ban anything they don't like. How do you feel about that? Do you make appeal to fair competition to them?

pldr1234 6y ago

As someone from a country that has seen the first hand effects of Chinese influence on critical levels of government and social influence: This leaves a very good feeling if it happens.

archsurface 6y ago

Hong Kong, Huawei, Uighurs, South China Sea, India... Your comment seems to be lacking balance.

s3r3nity 6y ago
Wow...CCP supporters out in full-force right now downvoting anything critical of China.
- dang 6y ago
  This breaks the site guidelines. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here. If you need explanation about why, see https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme....

altaria 6y ago

In this specific case we are dealing with an app that gives a company beholden to our enemy the power to snoop on the behavior of tens of millions of our citizens. In the real world, when you must take into account the realities of power politics sometimes extraordinary steps have to be taken. China has been engaging in cyber espionage against the US for decades. Like it or not, we are engaged in a struggle with them because we have fundamentally different political worldviews. These two worldviews cannot coexist.

humaniania 6y ago

I blame China having over 1,000,000 of it's citizens in concentration "re-education" camps for the deteriorating relationship. What kind of leadership allows that type of behavior? Not a competent one. It's shameful that this is being allowed to happen. I support measures to limit the propaganda being spread by China's government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Wingman4l7 6y ago

throwaway69123 6y ago
They are technically correct the hostile policy hasnt changed in the last 5 years.

s3r3nity 6y ago

Stop with this CCP propaganda. China blocked Facebook and Google because those apps gave access to significant information that the government couldn't censor outright. The scales were never even, so now this is just a much needed correction.

s3r3nity 6y ago

China doesn't allow western companies to operate freely in their country, so why should US shoulder the blame here?

scoot_718 6y ago

> Banning something which hasn't broken US laws, on arbitrary grounds shouldn't be possible. Of course it should. They control their store fronts. This is an extremist position you are taking. > Also dictating which apps an individual can install/not install shouldn't be the job of the Federal Government. They aren't doing that. Install the app from an APK if you care so much. Protecting their citizens from hostile state actors is very much in their purview and mandate. > At this point US is seemingly acting like a dictatorship with very less transparency. Nonsense. TikTok isn't a US citizen. And they need to obey regulations. Ensuring US infrastructure and the private data of their citizens is protected is the sort of thing a democracy does. > Chinese policy seems to have not significantly changed in the last 5 years towards the US, I agree actually. They've been pulling this shit for more than a decade now. War on all fronts except military. I'm glad the world is starting to wake up to it.

DanielBMarkham 6y ago

Looks like the bullet list of things we might complain about, almost randomly presented. Since there's no reasoning presented, I guess there's no point engaging?

iliveinchina 6y ago

> Chinese policy seems to have not significantly changed in the last 5 years towards the US Chinese policy "towards the US" may be too narrow a view. Within the past 5 years, Xi Jinping has eliminated the scheduled 10-year leadership transition which served to alternate power between various elite factions in China. This has put him in a position to maintain leadership for life. After Xi achieved this, China has seen numerous significant domestic and foreign policy shifts. As China has become more of a near-peer global power with the US, Chinese domestic politics have become more relevant to everyone.

FriendlyNormie 6y ago

No one gives a fuck about your worthless opinion you insignificant peasant. Shut the fuck up you windbag.

jbgud 6y ago

>>Neither Apple nor Google have found TikTok problematic enough Security researchers have found it grossly problematic though. 1. https://www.proofpoint.com/us/blog/threat-protection/understanding-information-tiktok-gathers-and-stores https://www.proofpoint.com/us/blog/threat-protection/underst... 2. https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/tiktok-flaws-allowed-hackers-to-delete-videos-steal-user-info/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/tiktok-flaws-...

chillee 6y ago
Did you read the articles? From the first link: > All in all, TikTok should be treated like any social media app: one that can be used with relative safety if you’re aware of the information it gathers and what it does with the data. The second one seems like a security vulnerability found in TikTok - what separates that vulnerability from say, this one that allowed any user to delete any YouTube video? https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/374892/google-fixed-a-vulnerability-that-allowed-any-youtube-user-to-delete-any-video/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/374892/google-fixed-a-vu...

Temasik 6y ago

china cheats, they even cheat their own kind take that for argument

Guffton 6y ago

Is there a "third world" anymore?[1] [1]https://www.gapminder.org/videos/hans-rosling-ted-2006-debunking-myths-about-the-third-world/ https://www.gapminder.org/videos/hans-rosling-ted-2006-debun...

Mekantis 6y ago

National security issues override your freedom to use a spying app by a country's primary geopolitical opponent. That's just how it is. You paint China as this innocent party and the US as the sole aggressor, which is utter hogwash. I'm not sure whether you're intentionally or just ignorantly ignoring all the things China has done and continues to do in the past 20 years such as stealing IP, price dumping, etc. They're not the good guy here and anybody outside China should be wary of them.

neokrish 6y ago

This comment isn’t based on facts. I suggest you read this (https://www.lawfareblog.com/tiktok-and-law-primer-case-you-need-explain-things-your-teenager https://www.lawfareblog.com/tiktok-and-law-primer-case-you-n...) to get the legal basis right. You are free to disagree or call out US in an emotional tirade, but have the facts right on why the President can make these decisions. Additionally, painting China as a mere victim here ignores the complexity of the geopolitical tensions we are currently facing.