7 ms·

Israel Systematically Hides Evidence of 1948 Expulsion of Arabs

98 points by rbecker 6y ago

onyva 6y ago
Ben gurion. Arthur Ruppin. Golda Meir. Kleizmer, eugenics and pathos. Israel did a fantastic job of milking the world’s empathy while committing horrible crimes. Also, nothing to do with Zionism. Hertzl, a proud ethnic Jew (Sephardi), despised the Eastern European mob that would eventually take Zionism over and Judaism and turn it into a farce.
simonh 6y ago
Really appalling. But I’ll just point out this is being reported by an Israeli newspaper. I look forward to the day a report this critical of its government can be freely published in Arab nations.
- vmception 6y ago
  > But I’ll just point out this is being reported by an Israeli newspaper. That's not a silver lining, that just means the bar is waaaay too low. Raise it.
- mkhattab 6y ago
  I don't believe Arabs are under the illusion that their government is non-tyrannical. I live in Egypt and there's not a single person I've met that doesn't think their government is corrupt, oppressive and inept. So there's really nothing revealing or surprising that a newspaper could report. "BREAKING: Egyptian government is corrupt. In other news, water is wet." On the other hand, there are perhaps many Israelis who believe the false narrative that the Palestinians sold their lands and left, but changed their minds and started the aggression.
- alextheparrot 6y ago
  The episodes surrounding Norman Finkelstein in the late 2000s seems to have drawn the line for Israel - insofar as outside critique seem to be less sanctum, but internal publications are can still critique the government. One prominent example of this is the events relating to the film "Jenin, Jenin" by Mohammed Bakri where the Supreme Court of Israel overturned a ban even while calling the film propaganda. I don't have a specific example, but my expectation would be that this holds the same in many countries including the United States. The worry, of course, for all of us is that in times of stress citizens are much more vulnerable. Citizens can be compelled to act against or be silenced from expressing their opinions. The hope, in some cases, is that foreign correspondents are less susceptible to this. On the other hand, I suppose the counter-point to relying on foreign correspondents is that they can be coerced by their own country. Maybe we can only trust that which both our peers and enemies agree on, though I suppose Oceania and Eurasia could both agree that they have always been at war with each other and we are none the wiser.
- Udik 6y ago
  I look forward to the day a report this critical of Israel can be published in a US newspaper!
throwaway073120 6y ago
An Israeli friend told me that after the Shoah her countrymen faced a choice. They could say "never again" or "never again to us."
dagav 6y ago
My ancestors lived in Israel since 1880, and the Arabs raided their villages, burned their fields, and massacred them in riots. Before Israel they lived in Yemen, where they faced pogroms and blood libel. What the West cannot understand about the Arab-Israeli conflict is that it's not just a political war, it's also a race war and a holy war. What's happening in Israel is biblical, and reducing it to politics cannot possibly capture its complexity.
- entelechy0 6y ago
  this is what everyone says. to say it is anything more than pure racism is idiocy
- abraxas 6y ago
  IMO there are very, very few nations who can truly understand the mindset of Jewish people. Only those that faced systemic extermination have the means for comparison. Armenians, Roma and a handful of others. Though I'm not Jewish myself I fancy myself a big supporter of their plight to have a safe country where they can live without fearing expulsions or genocide.
  - opportune 6y ago
    I’m picking on you a bit but I am Jewish and I really dislike this ignorant attitude conflating Jews and Israel. Do yourself a favor and educate yourself on the various non-Zionist movements and individuals who are also Jewish. The state of Israel is a racist apartheid state and this is bigotry masquerading as ignorance
    - dagav 6y ago
      Picking out a population of thousands to say "some Jews oppose Israel", and then conclude that the state of Israel is extricable from Judaism, is extremely disingenuous. Almost all Jews globally support Israel, half of the world's Jews live in Israel, Israel is built on Jewish laws and values, and you need to contend with that.
- 6y ago
arminiusreturns 6y ago
https://archive.org/details/AlbertEinsteinLetterToTheNewYorkTimes.December41948 https://archive.org/details/AlbertEinsteinLetterToTheNewYork...
skinkestek 6y ago
Could be useful to mention at the same time how many jews were thrown out from neighboring countries. This somehow slips everyones minds as those were successfully integrated and not set aside in refugee camps to be played as a pawn in the western media guilt and shame game.
Pils 6y ago
Malmab personnel interviewed at the end of the article: > But isn’t concealing documents based on footnotes in books an attempt to lock the barn door after the horses have bolted? > “I gave you an example that this needn’t be the case. If someone writes that the horse is black, if the horse isn’t outside the barn, you can’t prove that it’s really black.” For additional context, this is with regards to the scholarship of Benny Morris[0]. Plenty of liberal democracies use and abuse the concept of state secrets, but to abuse it in such a petty and transparent way feels...counterproductive? [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris
phenkdo 6y ago
Tens of thousands killed, millions forced to flee their ancestral lands overnight, guess who I am talking about: Germans Post WW2. They too loved their lands which they too had lived in for millennia. How many Germans do you see blowing up cafes in Warsaw or Prague asking for their land back? How about the 12 Million South Asians displaced in the partition of India & Pakistan? How many Hindus/Sikhs do you see asking for their lands back? the Indus Valley (modern day Pakistan) is the cradle of Indian civilization. Mind you, both these events happened at the same time (1945-50) as the founding of Israel. Somehow they all seem to have moved on with their lives, and yet the Palestinians seem to be the only one fixated on "our lands" and indulging in self-flagellation. IMHO the The Palestinians just need to get over it and move on with building a new life in some Arab countries. This idea of condemning generations to oppression and racism, and living in that hell hole of Gaza/West Bank, in the vain hope of winning it all back, is utter insanity.

98 points by rbecker 6y ago

Ben gurion. Arthur Ruppin. Golda Meir. Kleizmer, eugenics and pathos. Israel did a fantastic job of milking the world’s empathy while committing horrible crimes. Also, nothing to do with Zionism. Hertzl, a proud ethnic Jew (Sephardi), despised the Eastern European mob that would eventually take Zionism over and Judaism and turn it into a farce.

simonh 6y ago

Really appalling. But I’ll just point out this is being reported by an Israeli newspaper. I look forward to the day a report this critical of its government can be freely published in Arab nations.

vmception 6y ago
> But I’ll just point out this is being reported by an Israeli newspaper. That's not a silver lining, that just means the bar is waaaay too low. Raise it.
mkhattab 6y ago
I don't believe Arabs are under the illusion that their government is non-tyrannical. I live in Egypt and there's not a single person I've met that doesn't think their government is corrupt, oppressive and inept. So there's really nothing revealing or surprising that a newspaper could report. "BREAKING: Egyptian government is corrupt. In other news, water is wet." On the other hand, there are perhaps many Israelis who believe the false narrative that the Palestinians sold their lands and left, but changed their minds and started the aggression.
alextheparrot 6y ago
The episodes surrounding Norman Finkelstein in the late 2000s seems to have drawn the line for Israel - insofar as outside critique seem to be less sanctum, but internal publications are can still critique the government. One prominent example of this is the events relating to the film "Jenin, Jenin" by Mohammed Bakri where the Supreme Court of Israel overturned a ban even while calling the film propaganda. I don't have a specific example, but my expectation would be that this holds the same in many countries including the United States. The worry, of course, for all of us is that in times of stress citizens are much more vulnerable. Citizens can be compelled to act against or be silenced from expressing their opinions. The hope, in some cases, is that foreign correspondents are less susceptible to this. On the other hand, I suppose the counter-point to relying on foreign correspondents is that they can be coerced by their own country. Maybe we can only trust that which both our peers and enemies agree on, though I suppose Oceania and Eurasia could both agree that they have always been at war with each other and we are none the wiser.
Udik 6y ago
I look forward to the day a report this critical of Israel can be published in a US newspaper!

throwaway073120 6y ago

An Israeli friend told me that after the Shoah her countrymen faced a choice. They could say "never again" or "never again to us."

dagav 6y ago

My ancestors lived in Israel since 1880, and the Arabs raided their villages, burned their fields, and massacred them in riots. Before Israel they lived in Yemen, where they faced pogroms and blood libel. What the West cannot understand about the Arab-Israeli conflict is that it's not just a political war, it's also a race war and a holy war. What's happening in Israel is biblical, and reducing it to politics cannot possibly capture its complexity.

entelechy0 6y ago
this is what everyone says. to say it is anything more than pure racism is idiocy
abraxas 6y ago
IMO there are very, very few nations who can truly understand the mindset of Jewish people. Only those that faced systemic extermination have the means for comparison. Armenians, Roma and a handful of others. Though I'm not Jewish myself I fancy myself a big supporter of their plight to have a safe country where they can live without fearing expulsions or genocide.
- opportune 6y ago
  I’m picking on you a bit but I am Jewish and I really dislike this ignorant attitude conflating Jews and Israel. Do yourself a favor and educate yourself on the various non-Zionist movements and individuals who are also Jewish. The state of Israel is a racist apartheid state and this is bigotry masquerading as ignorance
  - dagav 6y ago
    Picking out a population of thousands to say "some Jews oppose Israel", and then conclude that the state of Israel is extricable from Judaism, is extremely disingenuous. Almost all Jews globally support Israel, half of the world's Jews live in Israel, Israel is built on Jewish laws and values, and you need to contend with that.
6y ago

arminiusreturns 6y ago

https://archive.org/details/AlbertEinsteinLetterToTheNewYorkTimes.December41948 https://archive.org/details/AlbertEinsteinLetterToTheNewYork...

skinkestek 6y ago

Could be useful to mention at the same time how many jews were thrown out from neighboring countries. This somehow slips everyones minds as those were successfully integrated and not set aside in refugee camps to be played as a pawn in the western media guilt and shame game.

Pils 6y ago

Malmab personnel interviewed at the end of the article: > But isn’t concealing documents based on footnotes in books an attempt to lock the barn door after the horses have bolted? > “I gave you an example that this needn’t be the case. If someone writes that the horse is black, if the horse isn’t outside the barn, you can’t prove that it’s really black.” For additional context, this is with regards to the scholarship of Benny Morris[0]. Plenty of liberal democracies use and abuse the concept of state secrets, but to abuse it in such a petty and transparent way feels...counterproductive? [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris

phenkdo 6y ago

Tens of thousands killed, millions forced to flee their ancestral lands overnight, guess who I am talking about: Germans Post WW2. They too loved their lands which they too had lived in for millennia. How many Germans do you see blowing up cafes in Warsaw or Prague asking for their land back? How about the 12 Million South Asians displaced in the partition of India & Pakistan? How many Hindus/Sikhs do you see asking for their lands back? the Indus Valley (modern day Pakistan) is the cradle of Indian civilization. Mind you, both these events happened at the same time (1945-50) as the founding of Israel. Somehow they all seem to have moved on with their lives, and yet the Palestinians seem to be the only one fixated on "our lands" and indulging in self-flagellation. IMHO the The Palestinians just need to get over it and move on with building a new life in some Arab countries. This idea of condemning generations to oppression and racism, and living in that hell hole of Gaza/West Bank, in the vain hope of winning it all back, is utter insanity.