6 ms·

It's mentioned in the article indirectly: when you enable consumers to demand more, you increase competitive pressures amongst producers as well. Your landlord

by bhl 6y ago

It's mentioned in the article indirectly: when you enable consumers to demand more, you increase competitive pressures amongst producers as well. Your landlord raises your rent by $1000? That's fine: you move to another town that's cheaper. Landlords are no longer competing within a town or city; now, they're competing with landlords every where else.

sangli 6y ago
Just move to other town? Is that a feasible solution?
- pixelbash 6y ago
  It is if you don't have to live somewhere specific to earn enough money to pay rent.
  - dagurp 6y ago
    If you only have UBI anyway you might not be as tied down by your current job
  - sangli 6y ago
    Job is one part of life. A human is not like a variable in program that can be refactored into another class as needed. What you are saying would work perfectly for a young college graduate, without much family or friends, who has no dependency or no one dependent on them. Now imagine a young single mother or father that depends on their family for babysitting or caring for the child while they try to become functioning member of society. Imagine someone with some health condition that needs access to certain medical facilities. People live in cities and migrate to cities because they can access schools, colleges, entertainment, public transport, medical facilities, better opportunities, parks etc etc. They can't just pick and move and uproot themselves. I think people who work in technology do not have enough exposure to the poor and struggling members of the society. I grew up in a really really poor family and when I talk to my coworkers it is very apparent that they don't understand poor people.
    - pixelbash 6y ago
      Even moving somewhere else within the same city is a lot less hassle if you are less concerned with immediately having the work part of the equation figured out. I am not a young graduate, uprooting now would be a big deal for various reasons. Neither are my friends in their 30's raising families - some of which are living with their parents for the kind of reasons you describe. My point is that without being so close to the financial edge all the time, even less well off families can take a step back and make decisions that work best for the future. The stress associated with risk (like quitting a job) results in a scary amount of lock in for many people I know.
- bsenftner 6y ago
  That's not a feasible solution. That's, frankly, callus to believe people can just uproot their lives.
  - zentiggr 6y ago
    On the anecdotal other hand, I've moved eighteen times in my life. Some of us not only don't mind, but given the opportunity, enjoy new places and new situations.
    - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
      But you also appear to have had the means to do so easily (or you wouldn't have moved 18 times) without UBI.
    - sethammons 6y ago
      Did each of those moves include raiding the dumpsters for boxes? Enlisting others to help pack and move? And taking a year of savings to cover a deposit?
- bhl 6y ago
  It's not a feasible solution for _everybody_. However on the net, by giving that option to _all_ renters, you will discourage the population of landlords from increasing rent in general.
pharke 6y ago
Wouldn't that only work if the other town didn't also have UBI? I think the conjecture is that if everyone, everywhere is suddenly guaranteed to have a certain minimum amount of money per month then landlords everywhere are going to raise rents. Who are the landlords that are just going to leave money sitting on the table at a cost to themselves? The only thing that could counter this reliably would be an increase in housing supply. I actually think that would be a better solution than UBI, figure out what American public housing has done wrong (namely the idiotic towers in a park idea) and fix it, say by producing lower density functional neighbourhoods that have proper streets, places for business, community services, etc. and just build masses of them. Housing is the biggest cost after all and it's a large public works project that could be carried out everywhere. You'd have to fix the problem of corruption in projects of that nature though and that's unfortunately a much bigger challenge. There was an article on here a while ago about a successful undertaking in Greece to build massive amounts of new housing without major public investment, maybe just do that? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-07-15/the-design-history-of-athens-iconic-apartments https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-07-15/the-desig...
- bhl 6y ago
  > figure out what American public housing has done wrong (namely the idiotic towers in a park idea) and fix it I think an issue with this approach is that it's top down, as as mentioned in the article, "those at the top can’t manage all the information about the economy". A counter-argument may be to just let towns and cities decide what to develop then, since local people have the best information about their neighborhoods. However, 1. this is already the default method and has resulted in housing crises where NIMBYism is rampant. 2. UBI would also help in this case as you're increasing the demand for housing while increasing competition between people living there and not (assuming people want to move to the area in the first place).
quotz 6y ago
You also have that option to move to another town even before the UBI...
- bhl 6y ago
  Yes, but UBI lowers the risks involved in moving.
- lmm 6y ago
  Not when you don't have a job in that other town, and if you quit your job to move then you're not eligible for unemployment.
shlant 6y ago
> That's fine: you move to another town that's cheaper This is a pretty privileged perspective to have and shows that you may not fully grasp what it's like to be poor. Do you understand the costs of moving (both monetary and time spent)? Do you understand the cost of most likely having to quit and find a new job (if they are available)? do you understand the costs (socially and mentally) of having to leave your community/family of support? The opportunity cost of what you are suggesting makes it much less feasible than you make it seem
- bsenftner 6y ago
  The pro UBI arguments completely miss the 2nd level effects - the predators will come out in droves and the less intelligent will be conned into long term contracts that consume their entire UBI. UBI is a gift to the wealthy - it gives them a huge pool to steal from.
  - teddyh 6y ago
    Possibly, but that sounds like a problem which could be solved separately, perhaps with stricter laws about what constitutes an onerous contract; we need not discount UBI entirely because it causes some problems, since the problems UBI causes might be better than the problems we have without UBI, and the problems with UBI might be easier to solve.
    - bsenftner 6y ago
      If the issue of predator treatment of consumers were addressed first, a large amount of the pressure for UBI will evaporate. The poor are poor due to predator capitalism, not due to any lack of skills on their behalf.
      - teddyh 6y ago
        It might be that UBI is politically potentially possible, while the other issues are not politically viable to solve in the present situation. Politics is the art of the possible.
snidane 6y ago
If there ever is a universal economic constant then it is precisely the fact that rent always catches up to what people are making in that city.

by bhl 6y ago

sangli 6y ago

Just move to other town? Is that a feasible solution?

pixelbash 6y ago
It is if you don't have to live somewhere specific to earn enough money to pay rent.
- dagurp 6y ago
  If you only have UBI anyway you might not be as tied down by your current job
- sangli 6y ago
  Job is one part of life. A human is not like a variable in program that can be refactored into another class as needed. What you are saying would work perfectly for a young college graduate, without much family or friends, who has no dependency or no one dependent on them. Now imagine a young single mother or father that depends on their family for babysitting or caring for the child while they try to become functioning member of society. Imagine someone with some health condition that needs access to certain medical facilities. People live in cities and migrate to cities because they can access schools, colleges, entertainment, public transport, medical facilities, better opportunities, parks etc etc. They can't just pick and move and uproot themselves. I think people who work in technology do not have enough exposure to the poor and struggling members of the society. I grew up in a really really poor family and when I talk to my coworkers it is very apparent that they don't understand poor people.
  - pixelbash 6y ago
    Even moving somewhere else within the same city is a lot less hassle if you are less concerned with immediately having the work part of the equation figured out. I am not a young graduate, uprooting now would be a big deal for various reasons. Neither are my friends in their 30's raising families - some of which are living with their parents for the kind of reasons you describe. My point is that without being so close to the financial edge all the time, even less well off families can take a step back and make decisions that work best for the future. The stress associated with risk (like quitting a job) results in a scary amount of lock in for many people I know.
bsenftner 6y ago
That's not a feasible solution. That's, frankly, callus to believe people can just uproot their lives.
- zentiggr 6y ago
  On the anecdotal other hand, I've moved eighteen times in my life. Some of us not only don't mind, but given the opportunity, enjoy new places and new situations.
  - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    But you also appear to have had the means to do so easily (or you wouldn't have moved 18 times) without UBI.
  - sethammons 6y ago
    Did each of those moves include raiding the dumpsters for boxes? Enlisting others to help pack and move? And taking a year of savings to cover a deposit?
bhl 6y ago
It's not a feasible solution for _everybody_. However on the net, by giving that option to _all_ renters, you will discourage the population of landlords from increasing rent in general.

pharke 6y ago

Wouldn't that only work if the other town didn't also have UBI? I think the conjecture is that if everyone, everywhere is suddenly guaranteed to have a certain minimum amount of money per month then landlords everywhere are going to raise rents. Who are the landlords that are just going to leave money sitting on the table at a cost to themselves? The only thing that could counter this reliably would be an increase in housing supply. I actually think that would be a better solution than UBI, figure out what American public housing has done wrong (namely the idiotic towers in a park idea) and fix it, say by producing lower density functional neighbourhoods that have proper streets, places for business, community services, etc. and just build masses of them. Housing is the biggest cost after all and it's a large public works project that could be carried out everywhere. You'd have to fix the problem of corruption in projects of that nature though and that's unfortunately a much bigger challenge. There was an article on here a while ago about a successful undertaking in Greece to build massive amounts of new housing without major public investment, maybe just do that? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-07-15/the-design-history-of-athens-iconic-apartments https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-07-15/the-desig...

bhl 6y ago
> figure out what American public housing has done wrong (namely the idiotic towers in a park idea) and fix it I think an issue with this approach is that it's top down, as as mentioned in the article, "those at the top can’t manage all the information about the economy". A counter-argument may be to just let towns and cities decide what to develop then, since local people have the best information about their neighborhoods. However, 1. this is already the default method and has resulted in housing crises where NIMBYism is rampant. 2. UBI would also help in this case as you're increasing the demand for housing while increasing competition between people living there and not (assuming people want to move to the area in the first place).

quotz 6y ago

You also have that option to move to another town even before the UBI...

bhl 6y ago
Yes, but UBI lowers the risks involved in moving.
lmm 6y ago
Not when you don't have a job in that other town, and if you quit your job to move then you're not eligible for unemployment.

shlant 6y ago

> That's fine: you move to another town that's cheaper This is a pretty privileged perspective to have and shows that you may not fully grasp what it's like to be poor. Do you understand the costs of moving (both monetary and time spent)? Do you understand the cost of most likely having to quit and find a new job (if they are available)? do you understand the costs (socially and mentally) of having to leave your community/family of support? The opportunity cost of what you are suggesting makes it much less feasible than you make it seem

bsenftner 6y ago
The pro UBI arguments completely miss the 2nd level effects - the predators will come out in droves and the less intelligent will be conned into long term contracts that consume their entire UBI. UBI is a gift to the wealthy - it gives them a huge pool to steal from.
- teddyh 6y ago
  Possibly, but that sounds like a problem which could be solved separately, perhaps with stricter laws about what constitutes an onerous contract; we need not discount UBI entirely because it causes some problems, since the problems UBI causes might be better than the problems we have without UBI, and the problems with UBI might be easier to solve.
  - bsenftner 6y ago
    If the issue of predator treatment of consumers were addressed first, a large amount of the pressure for UBI will evaporate. The poor are poor due to predator capitalism, not due to any lack of skills on their behalf.
    - teddyh 6y ago
      It might be that UBI is politically potentially possible, while the other issues are not politically viable to solve in the present situation. Politics is the art of the possible.

snidane 6y ago

If there ever is a universal economic constant then it is precisely the fact that rent always catches up to what people are making in that city.