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ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

• nwah1 6y ago
  Why does it need to contain an actual ARM processor?
  • S_A_P 6y ago
    I would hazard a guess because it allows a ton of configuration and key remapping options.
  • tridentlead 6y ago
    It could use an AVR but you don’t save much and the world is on ARM. You would “need” an ATMega 32u4 anyways for hardware USB support. A purposed KB IC probably wouldn’t handle split halves.
  • steveklabnik 6y ago
    Need to? It doesn't. Why might users care? Well, the kinds of people who are into custom keyboards often use custom firmware too... while this keyboard advertises QMK support, if I don't like QMK and want to use something else, which chips are inside matters. Making this even more concrete, I am in the market for some new keyboards, and at least one of them is one I'd like to write my own firmware for. Rust is far more supported on ARM chips than on some of the other popular chips that are used to build keyboards, and so knowing this has one makes me more likely to buy it than others. I don't want this specific keyboard, so it isn't a win for me, but there are surely dozens of folks like me, dozens!
    • fluffything 6y ago
      I think OP meant "Why does this keyboard need so much computing power". Most keyboards you can program use an AVR chip, which is more than enough, and you can also program that from Rust. The jump from that to this ARMv5 CPU is similar to that from this ARMv5 to an Intel Xeon. And sure enough, if someone were to build a keyboard with an Intel Xeon, you could also program that from Rust. But the question still remains: why would anybody do that ?
      • steveklabnik 6y ago
        EDIT: oops, you edited substantially from when I replied with what's below. ------------ That's correct, yes. I guess I didn't say that explicitly, but that's another decent reason to advertise this, it's not exactly the norm. (And for my personal quest, the latest Rust nightlies do work on AVR!)
      • steveklabnik 6y ago
        So, this is 100% speculation, but.... Specifically, this has a STM32F303xC. Looks like (depending on quantity, of course), you're looking at $3 to $5. Their other well-known keyboard, the Ergodox EZ, uses an ATMEGA32U4-AU. It's also $3 or $4 on Mouser. I don't know what the actual BOM looks like in total, but it seems like this isn't significantly different in price? Especially at the likely volumes here? I'm still new to this game, so maybe I'm missing something.
        • fluffything 6y ago
          Thanks, this is an interesting discussion. I thought the arms would be much more expensive: https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/6wt6mi/evaluating_mcus_for_a_custom_build/ https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/6wt6mi/evaluating_mcu...
          • steveklabnik 6y ago
            Nice, thanks for that link!
      • deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    • johnm 6y ago
      Actually, there are people who have already written firmware in Rust for their DIY/kit keyboards. Nothing yet mainstream like QMK. Here's a write up of one of them: https://josh.robsonchase.com/rest-of-the-keyboard/ https://josh.robsonchase.com/rest-of-the-keyboard/ Meet the Ferris keeb that was just recently developed. Currently built using QMK but will eventually have Rust firmware. https://github.com/pierrechevalier83/ferris https://github.com/pierrechevalier83/ferris
      • steveklabnik 6y ago
        I know some people have, but part of the fun is doing it yourself :) There's also https://github.com/TeXitoi/keyberon https://github.com/TeXitoi/keyberon
        • johnm 6y ago
          Indeed! Was just looking at that yesterday.
  • lvh 6y ago
    While Cortex-Ms are surprisingly powerful compared to the microcontrollers of yesteryear, they're still targeting the same segment. They are not comparable (in terms of cost, power consumption, performance...) to the ARM in your smartphone, let alone the ARM in AWS Graviton. They have kilobytes, not gigabytes of RAM. They run at double digit megahertz clocks.
  • detaro 6y ago
    Why not? They are affordable, accessible and common microcontrollers. Where you might have used an AVR or PIC before, nowadays a small ARM is also a completely normal choice.
• skocznymroczny 6y ago
  Is there any science when it comes to ergonomy and tall keys? I would expect tall keys to be more damaging to wrists over time due to awkward position and longer travel time.
  • mofeien 6y ago
    I learned that the proper way to type is with your hands floating above the keyboard, and resting your hands on a wrist rest when not typing. I don't always do it, but when I do, the height of the keyboard relative to the table becomes irrelevant, instead it's more about height of keys relative to my shoulders and maintaining right angled elbows. Also, to me the Moonlander keyboard and its keycaps do not seem particularly tall.
    • m463 6y ago
      I use a wrist rest as well. It's hard to get a good wrist rest - they seem to last for a month or a year on amazon, and when I want to re-order, they are unavailable. I have a memory foam one about 3-4" deep and the width of the keyboard. It is soft enough, lifts and supports my wrists and keeps them warm. I think the wrist support on this moonlander keyboard is a good idea, but making it out of cold, hard plastic does not make it look comfortable.
      • me_me_me 6y ago
        I find gel wrist rest better. It has less give while still feeling soft to my wrists.
        • m463 6y ago
          I used to use a gel wrist rest but the one I bought disappeared. I tried a plain foam one (glorious gaming), but it was too hard.
    • yodon 6y ago
      Be careful using wrist rests. The pressure can cause the carpal tunnel on the underside of your wrist to compress, increasing the friction on the tendons running through the tunnel and exacerbating or causing carpal tunnel syndrome. It's much much better to train your muscles and posture to keep your wrists from resting on a surface while you type.
• rkagerer 6y ago
  Neat! If you're interested in this kind of thing, I recommend also checking out the Kinesis Advantage.
  • mellavora 6y ago
    Yes, I love my Kinesis. Looks line ZSA is borrowing Kinesis's idea of putting a number of special keys into a "thumb-bar". Not sure if Kinesis actually invented that idea, but I think they were the first to bring it to market. And yes, the Moonlander looks very interesting!
    • noelwelsh 6y ago
      I believe Maltron did it first and Kinesis stole the idea from them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltron Maltron keyboards are excellent but expensive and hard to source, particularly outside of the UK.
      • azinman2 6y ago
        I've had both and the kinesis def feels more solid. The Maltron probably came up with the original design, and they're great for that, but the keys of the Kinesis feel better/sturdier. I've had to resolder connections in the Maltron several times; luckily its easy to do... they're just unshielded wires going everywhere!
  • ahelwer 6y ago
    Kinesis Freestyle Pro is more similar, except for the ortholinear layout.
    • samgranieri 6y ago
      I switched to an Ergodox EZ from a Kinesis Freestyle 2 bluetooth. It basically took me a month to get used to an ortholinear layout, but it's been working great so far
• mopsi 6y ago
  Very interesting design. The page could really use a video of someone using it.
• Tepix 6y ago
  Looks interesting. I think the Keyboardio Model 01 (or its successor) appears to be higher quality (an perhaps ergonomics) for slightly less money.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• Milank 6y ago
  This doesn't feel like a big step forward, like something new and revolutionary. It's more like an iteration of previous models, with some small tweaks and perks. But I'm happy that split keyboard market is getting more and more attention.
  • wy35 6y ago
    Yes, I'm disappointed to see that this isn't a contoured keyboard -- still waiting for a contoured keyboard (e.g. Advantage2) with the customization of the ErgoDox without having to build it myself (e.g. Dactyl Manuform).
    • mohaine 6y ago
      This. After using Advantage2 for 10ish years I can't really go back to a flat keyboard. I liked my Keyboardio Model 1 but the Advantage2 is just more comfortable. I love the idea of customization but the flatness has me looking at all these as non-starters.
      • wy35 6y ago
        I hate to add to the Advantage2 fan club, but Kinesis absolutely knocked it out of the park in terms of ergonomics. Makes constant typing ridiculously comfortable.
      • bostonvaulter2 6y ago
        How does the customizability of the Advantage2 compare to the Ergodox EZ?
        • johnm 6y ago
          Nowhere close. There are DIY mods that people have done to be able to run e.q., QMK as well as make them bluetooth. My impression is that people who really want the concave keywells are building variations of the Dactyl Manuform.
• indentit 6y ago
  I like the idea of it, it's different enough from the standard design that it seems well thought out - but it's one of those keyboards/products I would love to be able to try for a while before committing myself to a purchase, to ensure I can get used to it and would enjoy typing on it. It'd be great to see some kinda local computer hardware/keyboard store open up for this purpose, but I guess it'd be too niche really to be profitable/popular...
  • Milank 6y ago
    That's one of the reasons I said in mu post that I'm happy that split keyboards are getting more attention. Most of the people still don't know about them. If more people knew about the benefits they bring, problems they solve, they would be much more popular. That would bring the price down, increase the choices available, bring them closer to the users. So you could probably go to a local shop and test it. But they would lose the exclusivity feeling they have now. Which one do you choose?
    • indentit 6y ago
      I think it would be better for the health of the population if split keyboards were less exclusive, along with different keyboard layouts like Colemak instead of most people being stuck on Qwerty which was designed to be awkward to slow down the typist to prevent typewriter jams. Sure, it would be harder to tell who the early adopters are, in case it is any measure of skill or determination, but that's a trade-off I would be happy with - instead of being the odd ones out, we'd be pioneers setting the trend ;)
      • Milank 6y ago
        I think it's coming. More and more people are having problems caused by the position used with standard keyboards. But it will take some time to educate everyone, starting with doctors who need to keep up with 'modern health issues' caused by using the computer whole day. Let's be philosophical: A journey of a thousand miles begins with a first step. We'll get there.
  • 6y ago
• splitpremium 6y ago
  Why do split keyboards charge a premium? Microsoft makes contoured keybords for 100usd. In India great quality mech keyboards costs $40, you bang it all day on games and it lasts. I can pay for innovation but this style is old
  • ahelwer 6y ago
    There are only a couple competitors that are split, ortholinear, and mechanical (ergodox and some small custom others). They all charge over $300 afaik. You can get decent split/standard/membrane keyboards for $80-120 from goldtouch or kinesis.
  • frostburg 6y ago
    Lower volume (also quality is bottomless hole, I know people that own PVD coating equipment because they find that the kind of finish taht you can buy isn't good enough). I have built myself a couple of Nyquist ortho splits and with my even lower volume I spent even more despite providing the labor and part of the design work.
  • wishinghand 6y ago
    Economies of scale. I bet Microsoft sells more Sculpts in a month than ZSA does in a year. Plus microsoft can make slim margins on their keyboard and make it up elsewhere; ZSA just sells keyboards and related accessories.
• Chris2048 6y ago
  If it was 150Eur I'd go for it, 300+ is beyond my keyboard budget.
• ahelwer 6y ago
  I've been getting deep into the home office ergonomics hole now that I'll be working from home indefinitely. There's a real danger here - I generally pride myself as someone who is conscientious of consumerist tendencies, but it's become clear that my drive for better ergonomics is no longer about the actual facilitation of work or avoidance of injury. I have spent more time researching ergonomic setups than could ever be saved by marginal improvements in productivity, and my poor posture is by far the greatest risk for injury. It's become about completing myself. Filling the void. Materialism: the belief that acquisition of something outside myself will finally bring me permanent satisfaction. But if you'll excuse the metaphor, the void we try to fill is a black hole of the cosmic variety: its pull grows as it is fed. Shoveling in expensive ergonomic equipment is little different from shoes or bags or guns or radios or funko pops. Anyway, this next $250 I spend on an endlessly-adjustible retractable keyboard tray & fancy ergonomic keyboard will surely address all my complaints...
  • me_me_me 6y ago
    > Shoveling in expensive ergonomic equipment is little different from shoes or bags or guns or radios or funko pops. It is and it isn't. It depends if/when you stop. I just got $250 keyboard. My last one was also in that range. Though it lasted me around 10 years. I don't think its evil wanting to have nice things. Its problem when 'you life to buy things, not buy things to live.'
    • tetris11 6y ago
      I have never spent more than 30 € on a keyboard and mouse combo, and that's over the span of the last 10 years... I have never peeked over the price wall into the higher end stuff because it genuinely has never occurred to me that my current keyboard+mouse were hindering my productivity. High contrast screen? Sure, squinting hurts. Office-cancelling headphones? Sure, loud noises ruin my concentration But keyboard and mouse have never been am issue... When did you start to suspect that you needed to get a better keyboard?
      • zadjii 6y ago
• drewm1980 6y ago
  At that price it's in competition with fully contoured (i.e. not flat) mechanical keyboards.
  • Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
    Yeah. It Looks cool, some nice features. But splits with most of these features can be had for $150 or less, so I don't really see the appeal of spending 200 more without a commensurate doubling of functionality, ergonomics, etc.
    • ledauphin 6y ago
      can you provide some examples?
• Theodores 6y ago
  I appreciate that there is a market for ergonomic fancy keyboards, but can't we just get the standard keyboard right? I wish that there was a keyboard company out there that focused on standard keyboards with attention paid to supporting all locales. Choice for the US consumer might be great but elsewhere in the English speaking world you start getting compromises. Essentially you can get a US keyboard with a few of the keycaps moved around. What you actually want is more than that, things like a double height enter key. I dread to think what keyboard layout crimes go on outside the English speaking world. Now, tenkeyless. Having the number pad is great if you do a lot of book-keeping but for most people it is not needed. If you are left handed then it makes as much sense as a fish with a bicycle. But getting to know the jargon - 'tenkeyless' and 'tkl' is a journey in itself. If you are using your keyoboard to type words then you do want the keys for navigation - Page Up, Page Down, Home, End, Delete - plus the arrow keys. But mini keyboards just mess with the layout to maybe give you half the standard keys in non-standard places. So, effectively 'tkl' plus a non-US locale means you are going to have a limited choice. Now let's put in a few other common requirements - backlighting, wireless and wired operation, coffee proofing and silent operation. You can't get all these things with a non US locale and a 'tkl' keyboard. Sure there are many switch variants and fancy LED lighting schemes with ghastly keycap designs, but if you just want standard layout then it isn't going to happen. It is sad to see Logitech, Microsoft and others offer us compromised designs that cost either a pittance of serious money. Why can't there just be a manufacturer that goes for the niche of standard ISO rather than ergonomic, or with too few keys, or with some emphasis on buckling spring style feel?
  • wy35 6y ago
    > Why can't there just be a manufacturer that goes for the niche of standard ISO rather than ergonomic, or with too few keys, or with some emphasis on buckling spring style feel? Those features are what the mass consumer market wants. Also, I'm sure Logitech and Microsoft have always offered a standard ISO keyboard. > Ergonomic People value the long-term health of their wrists. > Too few keys Usually to reduce desk space. In the case of the Planck, it's also to reduce finger travel. > Emphasis on key feel If I'm typing at my job all day, I want the thousands of keypresses I do to feel good. > niche of standard ISO Honestly, I think standard ISO/ANSI is awful -- the vast amount of design decisions are a relic of the typewriter age. The rows are staggered because typewriter keyboards had physical vertical bars under the keys that would otherwise overlap. An ortholinear solution makes much more sense in the modern age. The second most-used key, backspace, is positioned in the far right corner of the keyboard. One must move their entire right hand (or have a long pinky) to hit it. The spacebar, on the other hand, is wasted real estate because it completely occupies two of the strongest digits -- the thumbs. Thus, a better solution would be to split the spacebar with one half being backspace. This isn't even going into the nightmare that is QWERTY. Regardless of keyboard, almost everyone is using an inefficient layout designed to place common keys away from each other. Conclusion: just because it's standard doesn't mean it's the best choice. IMO, when it comes to keyboard layouts, the standard is the worst choice.
• RedBeetDeadpool 6y ago
  This is pretty cool. I was thinking about ordering and building a dactyl manuform [1] after my latest upgrade, the kyria [2] which improved the inflammation in my index fingers, failed to truly solve my issues because they put my thumbs in a very contorted position. I love how you can rotate the thumb keys as its unnatural to have your thumbs press keys in the same direction as the rest of your fingers. Having started with very generic ergonomic keyboards, and now progressing to hand built keyboards have taught me that if you are experiencing some sort of tendon, nerve, or joint issues from standard keyboard use, you really need to dive into the deep end and get the most ergonomic thing out there even if $300 for a keyboard, when you can buy one for under $20, sounds incredibly expensive. If you don't, you'll likely end up paying that much to just keep fixing or improving the situation. And if you don't try to fix the situation you'll pay for it in damage to your hands which to me has no monetary value* . I might still choose to build the manuform, but it's nice that there's an option out there with adjustable thumb keys, I've never seen that before and I hope it becomes a trend in the split ergonomic keyboard world. [1] https://tomoakley.me/article/2020/01/1-month-with-the-dactyl-manuform https://tomoakley.me/article/2020/01/1-month-with-the-dactyl... [2] https://blog.splitkb.com/blog/introducing-the-kyria https://blog.splitkb.com/blog/introducing-the-kyria * okay, maybe there is an exact amount in terms of how much money you can no longer make through typing ability that is lost, but my point is there is an intrinsic value to having fully functional hands.
  • clavalle 6y ago
    The Kyria...that looks like a lot of thought went into it. And I like that you can download templates so you can print them out and find the right size.
    • RedBeetDeadpool 6y ago
      I love my kyria, The number of keyboards the author went through before making this design in my opinion highlight all the issues he solved.
  • wdgz 6y ago
    I just got a $1900 bill from my last appointment with my Hand Doctor at UCSF. So the ~200 I spent on my custom Dactyl that has actually taken my pain from a level ~4 to near 0 is really a drop in the bucket for my health. (+1 for the DM! I have the normal Dactyl because a thumb injury makes the cluster unusable for me, but I have plenty of friends who love the DM.)
• thefounder 6y ago
  Already had somwthing like this. The wires made it useless for me.
  • jolmg 6y ago
    Yeah, the wire between the two doesn't look that long. I wonder if it's a portable connector. From the bottom picture, it kind of looks like a headphone jack, but I'm doubting that's the case. I wish they'd have mentioned the connector type to see if there are alternative cables available. As it is, it seems too short to comfortably have each half to my sides when laying down.
    • samgranieri 6y ago
      It's probably a standard headphone jack like the one on my Ergodox EZ. The cable is removable
      • Borealid 6y ago
        The Ergodox EZ actually uses a four-connector TRRS connector, not the three-connector TRS connector you use for ordinary stereo headphones.
  • mohaine 6y ago
    I never understood the appeal of wireless keyboards. Sure I understand for mobile but for a primary workspace the wire has never bothered me on the keyboard. I mean it just sits there and replacing batteries is a pain. Mouse is a different story since it moves. Is it just mobile or is there some other reason you hate wires on a keyboard?
    • GordonS 6y ago
      2 reasons why wired keyboards are annoying: 1. Aesthetics; the wire looks ugly on an otherwise clean desk 2. The wire takes up space that could be used for a notebook, coffee cup, mobile phone or whatever I've had wireless keyboards at home and wired at work for years - wireless is much better IMO. On the batteries, they seem to last a very long time - I guess I change them once a year, or possibly 18 months, and that's with me using it all day, and then someone else often using it for a bit in the evening too.
• LibertyBeta 6y ago
  If it's built as well as my Ergo from them. I look forward too it. They make some very refined and well thought out implementations of otherwise obvious keyboards. And they're open source firmware support is amazing.
• 1MachineElf 6y ago
  Unfortunatley, I believe it's a mistake to move away from the 1.5u outer column used by the ErgoDox, since the pinky is a less accurate finger and benefits from the extra key width. There isn't anything this does that the ErgoDox-EZ doesn't do, besides the adjustable thumb cluster and apparent build quality. I wouldn't call this a next-generation ergonomic keyboard unless it also had integrated pointing device options like the UHK has.
  • MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
    The main critique about the ErgoDox-EZ was always the thumb cluster. This one seems a bit better designed, but can't tell from the pics if they solved that particular issue - I suspect not. Agree about the pinky column, not an improvement. I like the visuals of the ErgoDox-EZ the most, but still willing to wait for the new keyboard.io, whenever that one comes out.
  • ianhowson 6y ago
    I recently built a Dactyl Manuform and thought the same thing with the 1.5u outer columns. For me, at least, it's not a big win. I'm mostly touching the inner edge of the key because my pinkies aren't that laterally flexible. I like a lot of tilt and low to the desk, and that extra 0.5u of width ends up raising the whole thing more than it needs to. I have large hands and the ErgoDox thumb cluster is just too damn far away. Bringing it within reach is a meaningful improvement.
  • CarVac 6y ago
    My take after building my own fully-custom board is that the best ergonomics is had by ditching the outer column entirely to completely remove pinky reaching. The thumb clusters need to be bigger and closer to the alphas so they're more powerful and more easily reached. My board: https://flic.kr/p/LJdbeC https://flic.kr/p/LJdbeC
    • 1MachineElf 6y ago
      You are a legend, sir! I recall this being posted to reddit years back. I upvoted it then, and do so again now. I started out with an Atreus42 in 2016 and really loved it, so I totally get that outer columns are superfluous in most circumstances. The same could be said about most extra features on this ZSA Moonlander board overall, although I think there's some utility in being able to leverage the non-essential keys when it's convenient, especially when it costs that much. Say for example one wants to use it for gaming - most games expect there to be an outer column. (Shameless plug) Here's my keymap. It doesn't require outer columns, and needs just 34 keys: https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/sb4dv/planck/keyboards/planck/keymaps/sb4dv https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/sb4dv/planc...
• jakecopp 6y ago
  It still doesn't compare to a Kinesis Advantage 2 [1]. It’s concave! [1]: https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/
  • torartc 6y ago
    Woof that thing is huge.
• gregwebs 6y ago
  I highly recommend the kinesis freestyle edge keyboard which costs around $200 but has roughly all the same features besides the thumb module. I also highly recommend a split keyboard in general: my shoulder issues are noticeably better when using them. A split keyboard may not help with wrist pain. Personally I was able to get rid of any wrist pain by strengthening through climbing.
  • wy35 6y ago
    I'm not sure if I agree with the Freestyle being an equivalent alternative. The Freestyle uses a traditional row-staggered layout while this keyboard uses a column-staggered layout. A column-staggered layout IMO is much more comfortable since your fingers are given their own dedicated column without having to awkwardly twist your wrist.
    • gregwebs 6y ago
      I agree this might be significantly better for some. The tenting is probably also better than the Freestyle Edge (which has only a couple settings). If someone wants a first split keyboard though I think the Freestyle Edge is a much better starting point given the price difference and the fact that the non-letter/number keys don't have normal placements on the Moonlander. Personally I tried the ErgoDox EZ and had to return it because it damaged my productivity since it doesn't support just using a normal keyboard layout. With a closer look this keyboard seems fundamentally the same actually so I wouldn't recommend considering to try it unless you use a keyboard all day long and even then be prepared to return it if it doesn't work out. The Freestyle Edge on the other hand is a sure bet.
• andrewla 6y ago
  One thing I have never been able to understand about split keyboard designs is why they don't put the characters on the split ("Y/T G/H V/B/N") on _both_ sides of the keyboard. I mean, are key caps a high cost? There's a correct way to type, but it doesn't need to be so strict. Sometimes (often) the natural use of a keyboard (like holding down a control character for a sequence of keys) makes it so that we type on the wrong side because one hand is badly out of position.
  • gchucky 6y ago
    The keyboard layouts are entirely customizable, so you could configure the keys to the right of T and left of Y to be the other one.
  • dharmab 6y ago
    You can do that. I have 123456 on the left of my ErgoDox and 567890 on the right. The keyboard is programmable using a visual editor or C code: https://github.com/dharmab/ergodox https://github.com/dharmab/ergodox
  • jchook 6y ago
    This is one of the two major issues I had with my last split keyboard. I also found that I orient myself by the edge of the keyboard, so an extra row of keys on the left side really throws me off. This keyboard seems to solve both of those problems so I may take the plunge and buy one.
  • samgranieri 6y ago
    This keyboard, and the Erdogox EZ I bought a month ago are reprogrammable! There's a slick web UI that can generate firmware for you so you can reflash a keyboard's firmware. You can also download the source code of your keyboard;s layout, program it and flash it yourself. It's called QMK Here's mine: https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/64YXl/latest/ https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/64YXl/la... Last but not least, on this keyboard and most mechanical keyboards you have the ability to change keycaps to whatever you want. I'm a touch typist, so i switched to blank keycaps https://pimpmykeyboard.com/dcs-blank-keysets/ https://pimpmykeyboard.com/dcs-blank-keysets/
• kelp 6y ago
  I badly want this, but with Topre keys. I have a couple of Topre FC660Cs and absolutely love the feel, durability and quality of the keyboard. A split would be really nice though.
  • anctualprzn 6y ago
    I'm with you. I have the FC660C. Loved the feel and sound, but the tiny form caused my RSI, which prompted me to buy an ErgoDox EZ. Had to go back to Cherry switches, but I would love some CYO Topre switches to throw in there. I wish there was a bigger market for CYO switches, but I haven't found anywhere to get them.
    • bllguo 6y ago
      CYO meaning choose your own? I wouldn't hold my breath on the Topre front, the company is notoriously conservative in their offerings. They're also not mechanical switches; there's really no way to offer hotswap Topre switches. But there is a whole world out there other than Topre and Cherry. And you can swap them out easily since you have an ergodox ez. You can buy mechanical switches from several hobby sites like https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches, it's pretty much plug and play
• _ink_ 6y ago
  Is there a similar keyboard in the $100 range? I do not need changeable keyswitches or an ARM processor in my keyboard. Currently I have the Microsoft natural ergonomic keyboard 4000 and I am quite happy with that. I just do not need a num block and think a split keyboard is easier for travelling. Are there any good split keyboards with hand rests in the $100 range?
  • rayshan 6y ago
    Try the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic, $60, works well and looks nice, but not mechanical.
  • StavrosK 6y ago
    You do need an ARM processor, though. It's fantastic to be able to remap the keys to anything you like. I didn't think I'd need it until I tried it, but now I can't live without it. I wonder if you could put an Arduino into the MS Sculpt and get the best of both worlds. Or maybe you could make an Arduino with a USB port and just have it remap keys on the fly.
    • least 6y ago
      There is such a device. Hasu's USB-USB converter works with qmk/tmk and will work with (almost) any keyboard. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69169.0 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69169.0 https://www.1upkeyboards.com/shop/controllers/usb-to-usb-converter/ https://www.1upkeyboards.com/shop/controllers/usb-to-usb-con...
      • StavrosK 6y ago
        That looks great, thanks!
  • daxelrod 6y ago
    The Kinesis Freestyle 2 [A] with the VIP3 Tenting Accessory[B] (for wrist rests and tenting) will run you $125 on Amazon. It's got two independent halves that you can angle how you want, and put at actual shoulder width apart. It lacks the ortholinear layout, mechanical switches, and programmability of the Moonlander. I went from the MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 (which I used for years and loved) to the Freestyle Pro (same layout, but with mechanical switches and programmability) and it made a huge difference in my posture and shoulder tension. It definitely takes up less space than the MS 4000, but it's still two pretty bulky halves that don't pack up to travel particularly easily. [A] https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/ [B] https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-vip3-accessory/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-vip3-accessory/
• charlieo88 6y ago
  No video of someone using it, at speed? Seems a bit sketchy.
  • wishinghand 6y ago
    I mean, it's a keyboard. Are you expecting the flux capacitor to get backed up and thrash the alluvial dampers or something?
• bambataa 6y ago
  Awkward timing for me. I recently bought an Ergodox EZ and the main problem I have with it is that many of the thumbpad keys are too far away to comfortably use. I never thought of myself as having Trump-like tiny hands before but this keyboard looks perfect.
• tom_ 6y ago
  I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. (Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they want their devices to be less useful, not more!) Particularly annoying when there's such a wide range of non-split keyboards with nice keyswitches. You've got all the bizarre layouts you can eat, but you still get the option of a more standard one too.
  • nextos 6y ago
    I love mechanical keyboards. My favorite switch is ALPS. But IMHO, the most ergonomic switches are low-travel ones. They increase my typing speed, reduce latency and make long sessions effortless. Luckily, low-travel versions of many good quality keyboard switches are being produced and developed more often now to cater the gaming market. For a simple, readily available option, I find the Apple Magic Keyboard more than good enough. It has really low latency [1]. I wonder if other low-travel switches are the same or if it has a particularly speedy firmware. [1] https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/ https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/
    • rbanffy 6y ago
      > I find the Apple Magic Keyboard more than good enough I liked the previous gen better. It has slightly longer travel than the new one, very similar to the pre-butterfly Macbooks. Having said that, I prefer the feel of the butterflies over the magic ones. Even though the travel is very short, it's very tactile. I had a great surprise with the - haha - Raspberry Pi keyboard. It has a firm touch, good travel and small footprint. It feels much nicer than any keyboard in its price range has the right to feel. I'd love to try the Kinesis, but I'm not sure I like its footprint. I already have a Unicomp 122-key Battlecruiser on my Linux box and it's quite enough .
    • tck42 6y ago
      I've found Kailh Blue low profile to be the sweet spot for mechanical but low travel. My absolute favorite keyboard is the HAVIT HV-KB395L [1], unfortunately the switches seem to not be very durable (or I'm just very rough on my keyboards). I have two broken ones around (left control key is flaky), considering if I want to buy another one. This is literally the only keyboard I have found that uses those switches. [1] https://www.prohavit.com/products/hv-kb395l-low-profile-mechanical-keyboard/ https://www.prohavit.com/products/hv-kb395l-low-profile-mech...
• rayshan 6y ago
  I've been eyeing the Ergodox-EZ for a few months and this was an instant buy for me. Lately I've been rotating between TKL keyboards and the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic, but my right wrist is still getting worse. I looked at over a dozen split keyboard options. Seems like no matter if you build or buy, it'll cost around $300. I decided I didn't want to also buy a soldering kit and wait months for parts to arrive. Here's a comparison site between all the known split keyboard layouts (no moonlander yet though): https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/ https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/
  • walkingolof 6y ago
    Try the Kinesis Advantage, got one with red switches, I do not type faster, but it’s very comfy for my old wrists and I do not make many mistakes. Bonus, the configuration is stored as text files that shows up in a “usb drive” on the desktop.
  • knowmad 6y ago
    If you're eyeing the EZ but want a more ergonomic split version and to save money, check out the Nyquist/Levinson from Keebio. I built my current keyboard for less than $120 and I love it! Full Disclosure: - soldering the switches is required (I didn't include the price of the soldering iron or solder in the $120) - I used Gateron Brown switches which are some of the cheapest mechanical switches - I got blank DSA keycaps from Amazon(I bought special deep dish caps for the f and j keys from pimp my keyboard)
• nandkeypull 6y ago
  For similar ergonomic keyboards (mostly DIY), there's of course a GitHub awesome list: https://github.com/pvinis/awesome-split-keyboards https://github.com/pvinis/awesome-split-keyboards. My personal favorite is the Lily58: https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/d9g3qe/the_build_is_done_lily58_pro_mt3_devtty_halo_true/ https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/d9g3qe.... It avoids having a preposterous number of thumb keys and has a number row. And the OLEDs are a nice touch.
  • Symbiote 6y ago
    I recently forked the "awesome" list as it seemed a bit abandoned, but I haven't added anything to it just yet. https://aposymbiont.github.io/awesome-split-keyboards/ https://aposymbiont.github.io/awesome-split-keyboards/ (If anyone actually enjoys writing JavaScript, or can do it in their sleep, feel free to take over. I'm 95% a backend dev, so I was just aiming for something easy to maintain, ideally generated from something like a CSV file. The intention is to link to it from Reddit's /s/ErgoMechKeyboards.)
    • nandkeypull 6y ago
      Nice visualization! I like how you added filters for all the different options. The repo I linked to is a fork of the original abandoned one; it seems to be being updated regularly (last merge 8 days ago).
• egypturnash 6y ago
  Hyper is Ctrl+Shift+Alt+Win/Cmd, while Meh is Ctrl+Shift+Alt. No sane application on your machine uses these, which means you get free system-wide shortcuts. Ugh I wish Illustrator would let me use these, it only lets me assign shortcuts to cmd, cmd-shift, cmd-alt, and cmd-alt-shift. I would be so happy if I could add ctrl I to the mix, I have about thirty keypresses left unassigned and they are all kind of terrible choices. I guess this means my setup is insane. I’m fine with that.
  • ghufran_syed 6y ago
    What OS do you use? Could you use something like Karabiner on OSX, I'm not an expert but I think it allows you to map arbitrary key combinations to other key combinations that the program will accept
    • StavrosK 6y ago
      But you can already map the keyboard's keys to anything you want, no need to map twice.
    • egypturnash 6y ago
      I'm on OSX and am already using Karabiner to remap capslock to cmd-alt-shift and fn to cmd-alt! The problem is that Illustrator only has so many key combinations I can set up, and I have all but thirty of them allocated. I suppose I could do something terrible like have Quicksilver grab shortcuts that involved control and make it press menu items for me, I already have a couple of keypresses that invoke scripts to make AI do things that way, but that has complications like "now my key shortcuts are managed in two places" and "some of these shortcuts don't show up in the menus, which makes things complicated when I am doing a less-frequently-used shortcut". (Now that I think about it I could maybe solve the second issue with OSX's keyboard shortcuts settings... oh, nope, "you cannot add keyboard shortcuts for the application Adobe Illustrator 2020". Also I'd have to remake them every time there was an update that changed the name.)
• wl 6y ago
  Next-generation? What separates this from Ergodox or Keyboardio? And all of the above seem to be a step backwards from the Maltron and Kinesis Advantage which have been around for decades. Dactyl and the like are the only ergo keyboards I might label "next-generation."
• cfontes 6y ago
  I swear I don't mean to offend anyone, but it's insane that people pay this much for a keyboard, mouse, headphone, an so on. You can literally feed a family for a whole year in some countries with this money. Good ergonomics are awesome, macros are cool, but this is like a Channel Bag for nerds, if you like it awesome but don't deceive yourself into needing it. I love tech as everyone in here, I like my gizmos as well (Oculus quest being the most beloved one) so I understand, I just hate the consumerism that this type of item needs to survive, phones being the prime example of this, but a good keyboard ($100 range maybe) is probably marginally worst at it's task than this thing is. Again, don't take it as a personal offence.
  • striking 6y ago
    A keyboard is a tool, and for people who type on theirs 40+ hours a week, a couple hundred here or there is a rounding error at the end of the year. I bought a ZSA keyboard (not this one) due to otherwise having to type on a crappy butterfly keyboard on a laptop provided by work (when my E key started repeating, I knew I was over it). I could've bought some sort of crappy rubber dome thing, but I didn't. And I'm very happy with my purchase.
    • cfontes 6y ago
      I am among those people, 2 programming jobs, 12 hours a day typing non stop, for 15 years so far. I am probably super lucky but have never had an issue on my wrists and have used every single shitty keyboard you can think of. I love an ergonomic keyboard, but it costs 50 dollars maybe? This is not that, this is something else.
      • banachtarski 6y ago
        What's the point of judging how people spend money on the internet? Are you saying you are above reproach in your spending in every facet of life? You don't buy anything because you just enjoy it, or because it strikes your personal fancy? If so, good for you, but don't say things like "I don't mean any offense" and follow that up immediately with "I find it insane that..." The second statement is clearly intended to convey some sort of offense. My two cents (as someone that doesn't have a fancy keyboard).
• deleted 6y ago
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• arka2147483647 6y ago
  The thing i like best about ZSA, is that they are selling products. Just buy, configure with a nice web tool. No soldering, assembly or programming required to make it work. All other Ergodox, or Ergodox alternatives, seem like much more work to get working the way you want. Anyway, the thumb clusters were my primary annoyance with my Ergodox, so i ordered a Moonlander. I hope it works out.
  • benji-york 6y ago
    For another take on thumb clusters, check out the Diverge: https://unikeyboard.io/product/diverge/ https://unikeyboard.io/product/diverge/
    • arka2147483647 6y ago
      Honestly, the three-normal-buttons thumb cluster seems worse than the three-long-buttons in Moonlander. But would be nice to try it if i get the chance.
      • Symbiote 6y ago
        You press the key on or close to the the near edge using your thumb either way, so it really doesn't matter. (This comment typed on an Ergodash: https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash It would be possible to press the key labelled with the noodle bowl using my thumb, although I'm not in the habit of doing so. I might try and make it a habit, now I think about it. The top half of the "Enter" on the right side is pointless; my keyboard has 2 small keys instead of the large one.)
    • rayshan 6y ago
      Thanks for reminding me of this, really glad they're still iterating. We need more options with long-term companies and support. $393.40 shipped is too steep though, for that price I think the ergodox / moonlander is a better option.
    • bostonvaulter2 6y ago
      That layout looks nice! Would be good to compare it to the Moonlander, I wish there was somewhere I could try out these different keyboards in person.
• sawaruna 6y ago
  Split keyboards are really popular amongst the Japanese mechanical keyboard scene for some reason. Tons of people making and selling DIY split / ortholinear split kits.
  • _ink_ 6y ago
    Sounds interesting, do you have some links?
    • sawaruna 6y ago
      There isn't a great single resource I can point to, but try the twitter account Yusha Kobo[0], which is a keyboard shop in Tokyo. Not just their posts, but if you look at the feeds or likes of people they retweet, you should be able to find a bunch of examples. [0] https://twitter.com/yushakobo https://twitter.com/yushakobo
  • LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
    I think this has historical roots in the japanese [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRON_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRON_project from the eighties which also had something like these [2] http://xahlee.info/kbd/TRON_keyboard.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/TRON_keyboard.html And from Sci-Fi Anime from the time, and afterwards. This was their [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_computer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_computer project, and those keyboards belonged to it. So that concept has been in the air from then on, at least.
• nine_k 6y ago
  My take: - It's basically Ergodox EZ for the main part, from the same company. - The thumb block is more comfortable now, but 2 keys smaller. - The position of wrist pad is adjustable. - Backlight, legs, and wrist pads are included in the base set. - The price of the whole thing is about the same as of Ergodox EZ in a minimal set, without backlight and wrist pads. Still not barrel-shaped as e.g. Kinesis Advantage; you can put the parts quite far aside, though. Looks like a buy if you were planning to buy a mechanical ergonomic keyboard.
• VectorLock 6y ago
  This looks like a modest step back from the Kinesis Advantage with dishes keys, so not so much 'next-generation'.
• ohazi 6y ago
  The columnar layout thesis ("your fingers move vertically, not horizontally!") is wrong. Your fingers can move both vertically and horizontally, but moving them vertically requires tensioning and releasing the tendons that travel through the carpal tunnel, while moving them from side to side does not. It's the exact opposite of what you want to be doing if you have wrist RSI. I got partway through an Ergodox build before realizing this and will probably never use this thing.
  • StavrosK 6y ago
    I switched to a columnar layout split QMK keyboard a few months ago. The columnar layout was easily the worst decision, it took me months to learn to be fast on it again, for basically zero benefit. Yes, I was typing "wrong", but who defines what's right when it works fine for me? I would definitely recommend getting a QMK split keyboard with extra keys, I love mine, but I would advise that people get a staggered one to avoid having to learn to type again from scratch.
  • erikerikson 6y ago
    > It's the exact opposite of what you want to be doing if you have wrist RSI. Do you have a reference for this? I don't have it but use ergonomic tools to avoid such in the long term.
  • frank2 6y ago
    I don't understand what you are saying. It seems to me that the finger tips have to move both horizontally and vertically regardless of the layout.
  • Asooka 6y ago
    Well, from personal experience, normal keyboards give me wrist pain, even mechanical ones, while the ergodox does not. Obviously everyone is different and the movements that cause me pain may be comfortable for you, but it's not right to say that the columnar layout is inherently flawed. If it were cheaper, I would advise you to try for yourself and see, but as it stands if a normal keyboard works for you, there is probably no reason for you to switch.
• evan_ 6y ago
  this looks really cool but I'm not sure I can get used to the arrow key layout. I suppose I could do some kind of mapping to turn IJKL into an inverted T arrow key bank.
• tokamak-teapot 6y ago
  My wrists ache badly if I type too much, despite all the adjustments I’ve made over the years. I’m currently using an Apple wired keyboard angled so the front edge is higher, with my hands floating above it or sitting on silicon rests. I also use Filco tenkeyless mechanical keyboards - one with blue and one with brown switches. I prefer the feel of these and make fewer mistakes, but I’m convinced they make my wrists worse. I think the next options for me to try are split, tenting and staggered columns. Is there a chance of trying these out without spending this kind of money? I don’t think I’m up to the task of soldering switches, unfortunately.
  • evan_ 6y ago
    if you want to demo a split keyboard you could plug two keyboards in and put one hand on each
    • tokamak-teapot 6y ago
      That’s an amazing idea!
  • black_puppydog 6y ago
    Might not be the right time of^W^W year for this, but at hacker events like CCC there are always "bring your keyboard" type of events where you can play around with many different variants.
  • nico_h 6y ago
    Depending on the number of rows and columns you want there is quite a cottage industry of ergo keyboards. I think the main ergo flat keyboard (staggered columns) with 3 rows 6 columns are the Gergo / Kyria / Corne depending on the number and placement of thumb keys (they can be found assembled to order). For 3d / sculpted keyboards, this person is selling assembled to order Dactyl manuforms: https://dactyl.bigcartel.com/ https://dactyl.bigcartel.com/ A good reference for flat boards is https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/ https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/ via https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/f5h3d6/split_keyboard_layout_comparison_site/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/f5h3d6/s... Then for the sculpted keyboards, mostly the Dactyl/ Dactyl Manuform families there are a bunch of vendors. The cheapest one is in the first link. Otherwise one guy is currently selling some of his split on reddit's mechmarket.
• sawaruna 6y ago
  If anyone is interested in building their own split ergo: https://blog.splitkb.com/blog/introducing-the-kyria https://blog.splitkb.com/blog/introducing-the-kyria
  • wishinghand 6y ago
    I think the Kyria would be perfect for me if it had individual RGB backlit keys. I love the idea of the rotary encoders.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• jtmarmon 6y ago
  I've had the EZ for a while now and my only gripe has been how much of a pain it is to travel with. The folding and carrying case made this an instant buy for me.
• cuddlybacon 6y ago
  This is interesting. I have an ergodox, well two of them, and I think this does improve on the design. I read a user comment somewhere that said that the ergodox seems like the design got solidified when there were still improvements to be made, and for me that has been true. Let's talk about some changes they made that I really like: * The left side is the primary. If I ever want half a keyboard, I'll want just the left side. On the ergodox, the right side is the primary side. * It's thinner. The bulkiness of the ergodox ez makes it look cheap, which it very much is not. * The tilting of the thumb cluster might make that 3rd key accessible to me. On my ergodox, my thumbs can only operate two of the buttons. * They tried a new layout on the thumb cluster. Some other thoughts I have: * I find it strange that the default layouts for both keyboards split the arrow keys. Some games use the arrows for moving the viewport, and I find split arrow keys unworkable for that. * The rotating hinge for the thumb cluster is neat, but what about just moving them closer? The keyboardio Model 01 manages to get 5 workable thumb buttons with this. But it did sacrifice the rows beneath zxc and ,./ Maybe that is inevitable. * The site is responsive, loaded fairly fast (550ms, which is good considering I'm on my work VPN. HN takes 250ms), and is smaller than I expected considering all the images (1.6MB). * I find it hard to come up with uses for the fancier things the keyboard firmware can do (eg dual purpose modifier keys, space cadet shift, macros etc). * EDIT: I have been curious if a design where the thumb buttons push inward is workable. That direction seems more suitable to the thumb. Again, I think the issue is being able to fit the buttons without affecting the keys for the fingers. Still, I'd probably give this a try if I needed a new keyboard.
  • MivLives 6y ago
    There's defiantly layouts that have been made with the thumb buttons moved in. The Iris[1] or Corne[2] for example. Though you're now in custom keyboard territory which means you're either building it yourself, or finding a person/company to assemble it for you. [1] https://alexjj.com/images/iris-example.jpg https://alexjj.com/images/iris-example.jpg [2] https://alexjj.com/images/iris-example.jpg https://alexjj.com/images/iris-example.jpg
    • cuddlybacon 6y ago
• edanm 6y ago
  I recently bought and Ergodox-EZ, after previously getting my first mechanical keyboard (the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard, which I love). I'm not a huge fan of it. So far, it seems like it's been a lot of work relearning habits, for little gain. But oddly enough, my biggest gripe with the Ergodox isn't something I've heard people complain about - the lack of an extra column of keys on the right part. Basically, on a normal keyboard, to the right of the "l" key, you've got another 3 keys - a ;, a ', and the enter key. They're all pretty important. But on the Ergodox, you only have 2 more keys. Meaning you either have to move the return key to somewhere else, or move the "'" key somewhere else. Both of them break tons of muscle memory, and for no real benefit IMO. In addition, the lack of that extra column means that symbols like [], like -=, etc can't be in their regular locations. Obviously, as a programmer, these are all keys I use a lot. I don't know that much about mechanical keyboards, but I really don't get why this choice was made. It seems like a completely self-own here, making it so much harder to get used to this keyboard.
  • iheartblocks 6y ago
    I also currently use (and love) the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard. How well does the thumb cluster work on the EZ?
    • edanm 6y ago
      That's what most people complain about, and rightly so in my opinion - it has 1/2 useable keys, the others can be used but you have to reposition your hand.
  • victoriasun 6y ago
    Those far keys are usually triggered by your weakest fingers -- return, for example, is triggered via your pinky and can often require you to stretch your pinky (and ulnar nerve) in unergonomic ways, leading to Cubital Tunnel Syndrome. I find that a good introductory layout to this kind of keyboard is the Kinesis Advantage 2 [1]. As you can see a bunch of common keypresses usually delegated to the pinkies have been set on the thumb clusters. On my Ergodox, I also have symbols layers that allow you to reach common symbols without moving my fingers significantly from the home row. It definitely takes an adjustment period but my RSI definitely thinks its worth it! [1] http://xahlee.info/kbd/kinesis_keyboard_howto.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/kinesis_keyboard_howto.html
• simonebrunozzi 6y ago
  $365 for a keyboard? Not sure I really need something like this for that price.
  • azinman2 6y ago
    If you're like me with RSI and wouldn't have a career without an ergonomic keyboard (I use a Kinesis Advantage), $365 is a rounding error.
  • jtdressel 6y ago
    You probably don't, they are certainly not for everyone. I have two of the earlier keyboards (ergodox ez). I gladly paid the price because it makes me more comfortable. I find it similar to a nice monitor or chair. I don't know if my performance is better, but it's a nice piece of gear that's a joy to use.
• lowbloodsugar 6y ago
  I am at the point where I like to move my fingers minimally and with very low force required. I have an Apple wireless keyboard and I love the switches. Even my 2018 15" MBP is great. I also desperately need a split keyboard. But these are dealbreakers: * Requires me to learn a different finger pattern than the Apple keyboard (even ones with the Fn where "the control should be" are a problem for my muscle memory). I use the MBP too. * Requires a lot of vertical movement, i.e. big deeply depressed keys * Tall keys that require my wrists to hold my fingers in the air, or for my wrists to lay on supports which put all the weight on my wrists instead of my arms. I have a Kenesis Freestyle for Mac, and I don't use it for these reasons, even though it relaxes my wrists rotation around the vertical axis.
  • johnm 6y ago
    I don't know of one that exactly fits your constraints. But there are so many and more being created all the time. Trying asking on https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ In terms of the tall versus short keys... Look for one that you can get/build with either Kailh low profile "chocs" or their even lower profile "choc mini" switches. The "linear" versions will be most like the feel of the Apple keyboards.
• bllguo 6y ago
  there are quite a few ortho split ergo offerings out there now. but still just one with curved key wells (as far as im ware) in the dactyl manuform, and that generally requires self-assembly. wonder why that is - manufacturing difficulty? lack of interest?
• 127 6y ago
  As split keyboards go, there's a lot of different ones developed by the semi-pro community. Like for example Quefrency (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9jl46t/yaqb_yet_another_quefrency_build/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9jl46t...)
• yepguy 6y ago
  Stop making split keyboards! You don't need 2 separate pieces; all you really need are slightly angled keys away from the center. See the Truly Ergonomic keyboard[1] for example. That layout also has the advantage of being a design you could use for a laptop, if only manufacturers put actual effort into their laptop keyboards. [1]: https://trulyergonomic.com/ergonomic-keyboards/ https://trulyergonomic.com/ergonomic-keyboards/
  • nhumrich 6y ago
    Keyboards should be truly split for two reasons: a) different people need the spacing between the sides to be different. Ideally, based on the length of your shoulders. b) some people, like me, like to put our pointing device (mouse) in-between the two halves
  • least 6y ago
    There's room in the world for both designs; it's not really a zero sum game (unless you consider that people designing truly split keyboards would otherwise spend their time designing angled keyboards). Split keyboards can help accommodate people with different body types from yourself. I have a Kinesis Advantage 2 and it is ever so slightly too narrow for what i'd prefer for comfort with regards to my shoulders. When a keyboard is truly split you can adjust each side to be placed where it is best for you.
  • wishinghand 6y ago
    > all you really need are slightly angled keys away from the center. Citation needed. What if I don't like the angle TECK chose? Laptops for sure should start slightly angling, but if the unit is separate from the computer, why rant against user choice?
• jerezz 6y ago
  Has anyone come across an ergo keyboard like this that has a mouse roller on the thumb pad? I think my arms would appreciate a way to interact with the mouse without moving my hands away from the keys. I'm using a Kinesis Advantage2 right now, but I still need to move my hand to get to the touchpad.
  • jseliger 6y ago
    https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/product/trackball https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/product/trackball
  • wishinghand 6y ago
    The Kyria keyboard has sockets for rotary encoders on it, but that's more like a scroll wheel than a trackball. I've seen some folks hack them so that they can use Playstation style joysticks or thumb trackballs instead.
• ceocoder 6y ago
  Ah this is really cool, quite similar to a keyboard I’m designing - https://imgur.com/a/z31Zfoa https://imgur.com/a/z31Zfoa - haven’t designed a case yet. They have taken an interesting approach with thumb cluster, single key on farend and 3 on near end of thumb. I did the opposite of that, on account of thumb being not that flexible in bent position. Over the years my daily driver has been kinesis advantage2. I tried ergodox but really disliked thumbcluster placement and additional middle keys. I made a keeb.io Nyqist recently and got a few pcbs printed for Redox, need to build that out. It is really hard to go back to non-split keyboards after using split for a while, and kinesis advantage is still the gold standard imo, concave keywell alone is the reason to spend north of $350 on it.
• xellisx 6y ago
  I've been working on redesigning one of my own. https://gitlab.com/EllisGL/glt-esokb1/-/tree/development https://gitlab.com/EllisGL/glt-esokb1/-/tree/development I do plan on making a normal staggered version of this, along with the other 40% in both normal and staggered columnar.
• spalynx 6y ago
  Is there something like this that is wireless between the two halves? Split ergo keyboards look really neat, but like to keep my desk as clean looking as possible.
• replwoacause 6y ago
  Looks nice, but good luck getting me to part with my Kinesis Advantage 2!
• P4wl0w 6y ago
  When I see this I am really looking forward to just talking to my computer like to a real person :P Keyboards are nice and in many cases a far superior input interface compared to a mouse/touchpad but in my opinion it is just a stepping stone towards "the real deal". After voice interface there will be thought interfaces and then we can be productive if the hardware, apps and os-es are good enough.
• k_sze 6y ago
  Anybody else thought this is about a spacecraft when they saw the first two words of the title? For a moment I thought ZSA referred to some little-known space agency. Maybe Zambia or Zimbabwe Space Agency.
• hbogert 6y ago
  a serious problem with these exotic keyboards is, you need two. They're too big to take with you to work. I would not have coped well if not for Covid-19. When I am at the office im just there for meetings, because getting things done now on a normal keyboard is frustrating. But really, my shoulder pain is so much less, it's ultimately relaxed being able to work both arms on shoulder width. Ban the mouse as well, and no more arm-swinging.