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There are a lot of people here dissenting on the idea of UBI on the premise that they find meaning in work, and to take the incentive to work away will lead oth

There are a lot of people here dissenting on the idea of UBI on the premise that they find meaning in work, and to take the incentive to work away will lead others (themselves included) not to have meaning in life. I’ve taken a year off of work to start a business that failed and spent the past few months hanging out with my kids. At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panicking about my business. When I accepted the fate of my business, I chilled out and just hung out with my kids. These past few months were amazing. I loathe finding a new job now. Instead, I’ve built a mechanical keyboard, explored streaming, learned how to cook, read useless books, and learned how to be present. I see the choice of UBI as: “do I toil away for the wealthy class? Or do I took away for myself?” No way will I toil for someone else if I had a choice.

jonstaab 6y ago
The problem I see with that is that if a huge number of people take that route and happily (let's assume) live their lives without working, they lose access to the ability to participate in a meaningful way in the economy by producing something of value; if they're not producing value, no one is going to value them, and they'll eventually be locked out of the new, smaller elite group that controls the means of production, and the power that goes along with that.
- plushpuffin 6y ago
  You should read the Beggars trilogy by Nancy Kress. It's about a world that gradually devolves into just that.
- lkschubert8 6y ago
  This gets at a problem I always wonder about with UBI (as someone who genuinely sees the value in a successful implementation of it). What happens in 20-30 years once the system has been entrenched. Will the children of those that choose not to work for additional income have decreased social capital an struggle to enter the workplace if they choose? How do you prevent those that choose to work from using the increased wealth to exert force on those who didn't? These are the actually problems I see around UBI, not how to balance the budget.
  - dantheman 6y ago
    More importantly, how do you keep the workers from leaving? Because you're existence depends on living off of the work of others against their will.
  - Rapzid 6y ago
    This is actually a really, really good question. It could create entire new future populations of disadvantaged and disenfranchised people with the same types of afflictions as the current groups. True equal access and opportunity would mitigate that of course, but good luck there.
  - Bootwizard 6y ago
    This is the actual dilemma with UBI that should be discussed. I feel though that not everyone who leaves the workforce will generate $0 in value. There are many people who would rather create their own small business, maybe selling a minor product, streaming video games, or any number of things. Over the past few months I've realized that there is so much opportunity to work for yourself online by providing some niche service that you really can sustain yourself. If you have enough time, patience, and money to find that niche and work at it that is.
  - sgustard 6y ago
    It's similar to children of mothers who all stayed at home. A generation later, many of their daughters decide (or are forced) to enter the workforce, but not all. I see working and non-working moms coexist today without any undue tension.
  - cyberdrunk 6y ago
    > What happens in 20-30 years once the system has been entrenched. What about a scenario where we get one big step closer to a vision shown in Idiocracy? A world where people don't need to struggle may be great for some self-directed people, but I suspect it will be ultimately terrible for many (even if they won' see it that way).
- czbond 6y ago
  From a nilhistic point of view, isn't most work already performed by human useless and pointless in both the grand and minor scale? I do agree that my observation even from the Covid lockdown, is that many people's default state to pursue is activities with 'ease or non-challenged' rather than 'difficult '. To me, Covid lockdown proved why UBI was a bad idea. If humans have free time, they create dance videos on Tik-tok.
  - aiisjustanif 6y ago
    Most people that have free time to create videos are teenagers of college kids on unemployment living back with mom and dad. While most people are still working/ busting there ass or stressed to the core.
  - lovehashbrowns 6y ago
    Taking your completely nihilistic view, why is working a useless and pointless job better than creating dance videos on tik tok?
    - slx26 6y ago
      Also, it's obvious there's a lot of people using their time for more interesting things too, even despite the fact that we are pretty isolated and in a high stress situation. And I'd say that if that doesn't get so much publicity is because the spaces we have for that kind of interactions are kinda anemic in modern society (maybe due to spending most of our time working on pointless jobs?).
      - lovehashbrowns 6y ago
        Good point! We also have to think how long it takes to go from having to work pointless jobs to not having to work at all. Maybe it would be a generational thing where the first group of people will primarily spend time doing things that are deemed pointless (making dancing videos on tik tok), and the next generation is able to grow up more liberated and able to produce more "valuable" things--art, music, poetry, whatever. Right now, a lot of people seem to think having any job is what makes them valuable. That's not something you get over quickly or easily. Even stay-at-home parents have this up-hill battle. People in the US are still trying to fight for paternity leave. "Not working" is such an evil concept.
- rabidrat 6y ago
  I don't see how this is any different from the current group of "unskilled" workers who aren't valued (even if they are "essential"). At least with UBI they can live reasonable lives and create their own meaning, through community or art or activism or religion. Any of which are better outcomes than sacrificing most of their time on bullshit jobs which break their backs and/or their spirits.
  - nextlevelwizard 6y ago
    It is year 2061. I live at the Universal Housing City 14 (or UHC14). Due to rises in housing prices and rent over the years we UBI receivers had to be relocated to these new cities. I was born here as my parents decided to abandon their jobs in favor of pursuing meaning in their lives. Now I can not leave this place. There is no way to earn an income, since everyone here is provided by the UBI and thus no way to pay for education. All of the unskilled labor was automated when UBI laws came to be and first people left factories empty. I am not qualified to do anything in the outside world.
    - LordDragonfang 6y ago
      >All of the unskilled labor was automated when UBI laws came to be and first people left factories empty. Now, imagine the world in which that is true and we don't pay people basic income. Millions starving on the streets sounds so much better.
    - undersuit 6y ago
      >Due to rises in housing prices and rent over the years we UBI receivers had to be relocated to these new cities. Wouldn't that increase the supply of housing and reduce the price?
      - nextlevelwizard 6y ago
        Yes. That was the point in my little dark fantasy. UBI would increase the current price of rents, which is why government had to build new cities that were 100% subsidized by then (in from of UBI) since just UBI was not enough to pay rent anywhere anymore. i.e. if as a hypothetical landlord I know for a fact that you get $XXX/mo from government "for free" then why wouldn't I ask $XXX/mo in rent?
- jopsen 6y ago
  Hmm, maybe it's more gradual.. with UBI maybe some people will choose to work less, rather than giving up work entirely. At the bottom of the pay scale, UBI might not affect how much people work. Because most people have goals beyond mere survival :)
shripadk 6y ago
By saying what you said, you just proved why the people were dissenting the idea of UBI in the first place. If people do exactly what you did, there would be no innovation and progress. People will end up living off of the ones who do the actual work. There will come a time when no one will want to do any work. Then what would happen? You will return to where you started from!
gzu 6y ago
The lack of real world experience on a HackerNews UBI discussion is infuriating. Western society's white collar elite are completely unaware of truly how many "sucky" jobs there are in the world that all enable our (currently) superior standard of living. Your entire existence relies on a globalist system of slave level labor producing products from all corners of the world. Automation of every industry is impossible unless we have true human replacement robots (many decades out). UBI will over time simply raise costs of all goods/services to subwelfare level that people "can't live on". Whos going to: - clean your hotel/office/home - cook your food - serve your food - fix your household - grab your garbage - build new houses - build/maintain roads - build/maintain water, sewers - deliver your packages/mail - Drive trucks around - pack/unpack trucks - produce meat products (have you seen a meatpacking plant?) - maintain farms/livestock - provide difficult medical services - be a nurse aide (clean poo?) I have not even started to list all the jobs required in order to "magically" produce our cheap goods from overseas including clothing and electronics. These are farrrr from completely automated. Lazy Americans don't need to work right? Discussion about UBI is an expression of guilt over how well our standard of living (general hacker news crowd) compared to the vast majority of the world.
- st1ck 6y ago
  > Whos going to: - clean your hotel/office/home - cook your food - serve your food - fix your household - grab your garbage [...] People will take these "sucky" jobs, but they will be compensated well enough to justify it (since they will have an option of not working). This raise the prices overall, but not at the same level. For example, meat products prices will grow more than let's say organic vegetables. Note that demand for many of the products and services is pretty elastic (most people don't have to go to restaurants, they can cook something at home). This way at least people will have an option of having UBI and living frugally, instead of doing a crappy job.
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
  In Europe and Australia, all those jobs get done and the people doing them get fairly compensated for it. For example, the pay for a garbage truck driver is actually quite high, because it's an unpleasant job and they need to attract people to do it. And because the salary is high, it's also heavily automated, with pickers that grab bins and empty them into the truck. Meanwhile, in Southeast Asia, the same job is done by three people, two of whom jog outside next to the vehicle in the sweltering heat and manually empty the bins into it. They're breaking their backs and get paid like crap.
birksherty 6y ago
People who complain are the ones who already already have good stable income, privileged. They don't have issue when someone owns billions.
- dgellow 6y ago
  I don’t have issues with people owning billions, AND I’m for a UBI (though not in the US, you have way too many issues to fix before even considering one IMHO). Weird isn’t it? Maybe things aren’t as black and white as you said and nuances are possible.
chadlavi 6y ago
A lot of the people objecting also think someday they're going to be a baron of industry who needs income incentives to keep workers toiling away for them.
- luckylion 6y ago
  No, that's just a straw man. A lot of people are paying giant amounts of taxes and they'd rather not see them go up much further.
  - zanny 6y ago
    If your tax burden is overwhelming to your finances you are going to get more out of UBI than you get taxed into it lest its failed in its primary goal of wealth redistribution.
    - UK-Al05 6y ago
      You can still earn a lot, and be on the edge. I'm not, but a lot are.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      My tax burden isn't overwhelming, but I'd sure like to pay less rather than more. UBI would mean I'd have to pay more (no, "we'll just cut the overhead of existing social programs" will neither be enough -not by a long shot-, nor work, as we'll still need some/many of those social programs). I'd very much prefer others working as well instead of me having to work more to make up for their not-working, ergo I'm not such a big fan of that kind of wealth redistribution. I'd like a wealth redistribution combined with a work-load redistribution though. They work, I work less, I make less money, they make money, the contribute.
      - triceratops 6y ago
        UBI would ideally be based on taxing automation and increased productivity, not worker incomes.
prostoalex 6y ago
> At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panicking about my business. When I accepted the fate of my business, I chilled out and just hung out with my kids. You might be in the minority of people with mature enough emotional response and ability to deal with stress. What would happen if you had an existing alcohol/opiate/etc addiction? It seems that UBI provides few precautions from money flowing towards addictions and relies on everybody being at their best behavior and vice sector not expanding to capture that disposable income.
- thephyber 6y ago
  > You might be in the minority > What would happen if you had an existing alcohol/opiate/etc addiction? IIRC studies have shown that about 9-11% of Americans have/had an addiction. I think you should consider trying to find out if your assumption that the majority of people have addictions is substantiated. This article[1] claims 21 million Americans (out of 330+ million) have addictions, although it only includes drugs and alcohol. [1] https://www.addictioncenter.com/addiction/addiction-statistics/ https://www.addictioncenter.com/addiction/addiction-statisti...
  - prostoalex 6y ago
    > your assumption that the majority of people have addictions that's not what I said
    - thephyber 6y ago
      After rereading, I agree with you.
- d3nj4l 6y ago
  You can read about the results of UBI experiments in Finland and Canada: Finland: https://www.kela.fi/web/en/news-archive/-/asset_publisher/lN08GY2nIrZo/content/results-of-the-basic-income-experiment-small-employment-effects-better-perceived-economic-security-and-mental-wellbeing https://www.kela.fi/web/en/news-archive/-/asset_publisher/lN... Canada: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200624-canadas-forgotten-universal-basic-income-experiment https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200624-canadas-forgot... This sentence in the BBC article above is great: > In particular, Forget was struck by the improvements in health outcomes over the four years. There was an 8.5% decline in hospitalisations – primarily because there were fewer alcohol-related accidents and hospitalisations due to mental health issues – and a reduction in visits to family physicians.
Shared404 6y ago
On the other hand, there's me. I hate not working. I would appreciate a UBI, as it would let me get out of a not so great place, and let me focus on working on what I like to do, but I would definitely still be doing useful work.
- dantheman 6y ago
  If the work your going to be doing is useful, then why don't you do it? Or is it objectively not as useful as your current occupation? In general the market compensates based on how much it is wanted by others. It's amazing what an individual will think is useful when doing the work, vs what a customer who pay for.
  - Shared404 6y ago
    > If the work your going to be doing is useful, then why don't you do it? For me: I am doing/learning how to do it, but I don't have capability to monetize it right now. In general: I have personally known many people who want to have a career in X, but can't because they are working three jobs to try to house and feed themselves. > [I]s it objectively not as useful as your current occupation? For me: It is objectively more useful then my current occupation. I can't explain more without revealing more of my private life than I am comfortable doing here. In general: Regardless, something being less useful then something else doesn't make it not useful. 75% is less than 100%, but is still greater than 0%. --- Also, bonus argument for UBI. Most (all?) propositions for UBI I have seen will cover only the bare minimum. Almost everyone wants more than this, and will be willing to work to get the extra money. --- Edit 0: Add less situational arguments. Edit 1: Add bonus argument. Edit 2: Move things around because I'm stupid and can't get formatting right the first 3 times.
  - lovehashbrowns 6y ago
    How many people would rather raise their kids than work one or more jobs? Or has raising kids not been deemed useful because "in general" the market will compensate based on how much others want it?
  - boring_twenties 6y ago
BlahGod420 6y ago
> No way will I toil for someone else if I had a choice. You might collaborate, however.
deleted 6y ago
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kyle_martin1 6y ago
This is called being comfortable with being lazy. You're allowed to do this but you should also be comfortable with the consequences too.
jubana 6y ago
So someone else should pay for you to sit around doing new hobbies? Glad you are having a good time, but how can you not view what you do as lazy from the eyes of society? There is no free lunch; the money is coming from somewhere.
- treyfitty 6y ago
  Call it lazy, or call it leisure. I’m privileged to take so much time off and still feed my kids. To have this much leisure is truly a blessing.
Bootwizard 6y ago
I'm in a similar situation after being laid off from my job. I would have a much more enjoyable life if I didn't have to find a new job. I've improved as a person more over the past few months than I have in the past few years working full-time. Now I have the time (all of it really) to actually think about who I am and how I can improve my habits, diet, health, etc. I feel like nearly everyone (especially in America) are too caught up in their careers to realize how unhappy and unhealthy they really are.
MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
> “do I toil away for the wealthy class? Or do I took away for myself?” This is a false dichotomy. You don’t toil for the wealthy, you toil for your fellow citizens to whom you provide a service. Nobody owes you a living.
- zanny 6y ago
  Your fellow citizens are not employing you or else the desolate ghettos would be overflowing with capital growth. Traditionally it takes a capitalist to start a business that can feed and house a population and that capitalist is in it to extract value from their labor. The job does not exist to serve the community, it exists to make the business owner richer. All the demand in the world will not build a sandwich shop lest a capitalist has the funds to build the building. Even if that capitalist is a local who can get a bank loan to do it, etc.
  - UK-Al05 6y ago
    Returns on capital are just incentive for that guy to take out loan and take risk. As in many cases involving risk and uncertainty a few people had outsized returns from it.
nextlevelwizard 6y ago
My problem with UBI is that why would giving out "free money" change the world? Say I'm your landlord and you pay me $100/mo for rent. Now you start getting UBI thats $500/mo. Why wouldn't I increase my rent to $200/mo, $300/mo, or even $400/mo? I know that now you can afford the increase. So you'd still have to earn income if you wanted to stay in that place. All I see is prices going up for anything and everything in population centers. Only option for people who want the benefit of UBI (i.e. freedom to do whatever they want and not worry about working for a living) would be to move in smaller cities/towns where the demand for the housing is already low enough that price hiking wouldn't make sense. I also feel like UBI would divide the world even more wealth wise. People on UBI wouldn't be able to afford luxury goods or events since thous would be still aimed at the working people and for people to still work they would have to earn significantly more than what they would get on UBI. Putting this in other words: UBI would be the literal bare minimum to keep a roof over your head and food in your fridge. Forget streaming services. Forget eating out. Forget going to movies/concerts/theater. Easier way is to think UBI as "free meal" tickets and free housing. Which doesn't sound all that appealing.
- zanny 6y ago
  When those people move from high rent areas to the presently dilapidated small towns that UBI would revive the renters in the cities won't be able to price gouge their units like they are used to. Right now housing is totally out of wack because there is an extremely scarce resource (urban housing) that everyone wants and cartel like control of supply to prevent expansion thus making the price grow uncontrollably to consume as much of the maximum incomes earnable in the area as possible. If suddenly people had a choice between slave for subsistence wages in an extremely high CoL area or move somewhere incredibly cheap and live off government cheese those that make that choice will deflate the demand until a more equitable equilibrium is reached. So while your landlord could try charging you more for your UBI adjusted you will have the bargaining position that they almost certainly won't be able to replace you with someone willing to pay such outlandish rents. > Easier way is to think UBI as "free meal" tickets and free housing. Which doesn't sound all that appealing. For the 20% of food insecure families or ten million+ homeless people in the US it would probably be very appreciated. And it isn't just the outright homeless, its those currently in abusive households that have no out too. And it might surprise you, but the working poor - the 80% of paycheck to paycheckers - aren't going to luxury sporting events or buying luxury goods right now anyway. They are paid too little to afford it when the cost of subsistence is so high.
gfxgirl 6y ago
I really curious how many of the jobs no one wants to do would still get done. I get that the B in UBI is "basic" but still, so many necessary jobs are jobs no one really wants to do but they do because they need money. If they didn't need money would those jobs still get done. Trash collection? Construction work? Hotel cleaners? Janitors? Farmers, Grocery Store stockers, truckers, nurses, sales clerks, .... Sure they'd get more than "Basic" but if they knew they were housed and feed and got medical service until death if they did absolutely nothing how many would choose to do absolutely nothing? Would it be enough the world would be a much worse place to live? Would it be enough that the price of all those services would double, triple, quadruple raising the prices of all the related services and the amount needed for UBI? I don't like the idea of people suffering jobs they hate but I'm really glad and privileged they choose to do them.
- deleted 6y ago
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- codeisawesome 6y ago
  So the solution is to continue using suffering and historic injustice to force people into doing stuff they don’t want to do - “or else”? I don’t think so. In India, even middle class families can afford a part time house maid because the latter’s salaries are insanely low thanks to cruel supply/demand dynamics and poverty; the same family, after moving to a developed country, would just do the chores themselves. It leads to a more equitable society.
  - deleted 6y ago
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IshKebab 6y ago
I thought the main objection to UBI is that everybody will stop working and the system will collapse. You seem to have just confirmed that point.

jonstaab 6y ago

The problem I see with that is that if a huge number of people take that route and happily (let's assume) live their lives without working, they lose access to the ability to participate in a meaningful way in the economy by producing something of value; if they're not producing value, no one is going to value them, and they'll eventually be locked out of the new, smaller elite group that controls the means of production, and the power that goes along with that.

plushpuffin 6y ago
You should read the Beggars trilogy by Nancy Kress. It's about a world that gradually devolves into just that.
lkschubert8 6y ago
This gets at a problem I always wonder about with UBI (as someone who genuinely sees the value in a successful implementation of it). What happens in 20-30 years once the system has been entrenched. Will the children of those that choose not to work for additional income have decreased social capital an struggle to enter the workplace if they choose? How do you prevent those that choose to work from using the increased wealth to exert force on those who didn't? These are the actually problems I see around UBI, not how to balance the budget.
- dantheman 6y ago
  More importantly, how do you keep the workers from leaving? Because you're existence depends on living off of the work of others against their will.
- Rapzid 6y ago
  This is actually a really, really good question. It could create entire new future populations of disadvantaged and disenfranchised people with the same types of afflictions as the current groups. True equal access and opportunity would mitigate that of course, but good luck there.
- Bootwizard 6y ago
  This is the actual dilemma with UBI that should be discussed. I feel though that not everyone who leaves the workforce will generate $0 in value. There are many people who would rather create their own small business, maybe selling a minor product, streaming video games, or any number of things. Over the past few months I've realized that there is so much opportunity to work for yourself online by providing some niche service that you really can sustain yourself. If you have enough time, patience, and money to find that niche and work at it that is.
- sgustard 6y ago
  It's similar to children of mothers who all stayed at home. A generation later, many of their daughters decide (or are forced) to enter the workforce, but not all. I see working and non-working moms coexist today without any undue tension.
- cyberdrunk 6y ago
  > What happens in 20-30 years once the system has been entrenched. What about a scenario where we get one big step closer to a vision shown in Idiocracy? A world where people don't need to struggle may be great for some self-directed people, but I suspect it will be ultimately terrible for many (even if they won' see it that way).
czbond 6y ago
From a nilhistic point of view, isn't most work already performed by human useless and pointless in both the grand and minor scale? I do agree that my observation even from the Covid lockdown, is that many people's default state to pursue is activities with 'ease or non-challenged' rather than 'difficult '. To me, Covid lockdown proved why UBI was a bad idea. If humans have free time, they create dance videos on Tik-tok.
- aiisjustanif 6y ago
  Most people that have free time to create videos are teenagers of college kids on unemployment living back with mom and dad. While most people are still working/ busting there ass or stressed to the core.
- lovehashbrowns 6y ago
  Taking your completely nihilistic view, why is working a useless and pointless job better than creating dance videos on tik tok?
  - slx26 6y ago
    Also, it's obvious there's a lot of people using their time for more interesting things too, even despite the fact that we are pretty isolated and in a high stress situation. And I'd say that if that doesn't get so much publicity is because the spaces we have for that kind of interactions are kinda anemic in modern society (maybe due to spending most of our time working on pointless jobs?).
    - lovehashbrowns 6y ago
      Good point! We also have to think how long it takes to go from having to work pointless jobs to not having to work at all. Maybe it would be a generational thing where the first group of people will primarily spend time doing things that are deemed pointless (making dancing videos on tik tok), and the next generation is able to grow up more liberated and able to produce more "valuable" things--art, music, poetry, whatever. Right now, a lot of people seem to think having any job is what makes them valuable. That's not something you get over quickly or easily. Even stay-at-home parents have this up-hill battle. People in the US are still trying to fight for paternity leave. "Not working" is such an evil concept.
rabidrat 6y ago
I don't see how this is any different from the current group of "unskilled" workers who aren't valued (even if they are "essential"). At least with UBI they can live reasonable lives and create their own meaning, through community or art or activism or religion. Any of which are better outcomes than sacrificing most of their time on bullshit jobs which break their backs and/or their spirits.
- nextlevelwizard 6y ago
  It is year 2061. I live at the Universal Housing City 14 (or UHC14). Due to rises in housing prices and rent over the years we UBI receivers had to be relocated to these new cities. I was born here as my parents decided to abandon their jobs in favor of pursuing meaning in their lives. Now I can not leave this place. There is no way to earn an income, since everyone here is provided by the UBI and thus no way to pay for education. All of the unskilled labor was automated when UBI laws came to be and first people left factories empty. I am not qualified to do anything in the outside world.
  - LordDragonfang 6y ago
    >All of the unskilled labor was automated when UBI laws came to be and first people left factories empty. Now, imagine the world in which that is true and we don't pay people basic income. Millions starving on the streets sounds so much better.
  - undersuit 6y ago
    >Due to rises in housing prices and rent over the years we UBI receivers had to be relocated to these new cities. Wouldn't that increase the supply of housing and reduce the price?
    - nextlevelwizard 6y ago
      Yes. That was the point in my little dark fantasy. UBI would increase the current price of rents, which is why government had to build new cities that were 100% subsidized by then (in from of UBI) since just UBI was not enough to pay rent anywhere anymore. i.e. if as a hypothetical landlord I know for a fact that you get $XXX/mo from government "for free" then why wouldn't I ask $XXX/mo in rent?
jopsen 6y ago
Hmm, maybe it's more gradual.. with UBI maybe some people will choose to work less, rather than giving up work entirely. At the bottom of the pay scale, UBI might not affect how much people work. Because most people have goals beyond mere survival :)

shripadk 6y ago

By saying what you said, you just proved why the people were dissenting the idea of UBI in the first place. If people do exactly what you did, there would be no innovation and progress. People will end up living off of the ones who do the actual work. There will come a time when no one will want to do any work. Then what would happen? You will return to where you started from!

gzu 6y ago

The lack of real world experience on a HackerNews UBI discussion is infuriating. Western society's white collar elite are completely unaware of truly how many "sucky" jobs there are in the world that all enable our (currently) superior standard of living. Your entire existence relies on a globalist system of slave level labor producing products from all corners of the world. Automation of every industry is impossible unless we have true human replacement robots (many decades out). UBI will over time simply raise costs of all goods/services to subwelfare level that people "can't live on". Whos going to: - clean your hotel/office/home - cook your food - serve your food - fix your household - grab your garbage - build new houses - build/maintain roads - build/maintain water, sewers - deliver your packages/mail - Drive trucks around - pack/unpack trucks - produce meat products (have you seen a meatpacking plant?) - maintain farms/livestock - provide difficult medical services - be a nurse aide (clean poo?) I have not even started to list all the jobs required in order to "magically" produce our cheap goods from overseas including clothing and electronics. These are farrrr from completely automated. Lazy Americans don't need to work right? Discussion about UBI is an expression of guilt over how well our standard of living (general hacker news crowd) compared to the vast majority of the world.

st1ck 6y ago
> Whos going to: - clean your hotel/office/home - cook your food - serve your food - fix your household - grab your garbage [...] People will take these "sucky" jobs, but they will be compensated well enough to justify it (since they will have an option of not working). This raise the prices overall, but not at the same level. For example, meat products prices will grow more than let's say organic vegetables. Note that demand for many of the products and services is pretty elastic (most people don't have to go to restaurants, they can cook something at home). This way at least people will have an option of having UBI and living frugally, instead of doing a crappy job.
9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
In Europe and Australia, all those jobs get done and the people doing them get fairly compensated for it. For example, the pay for a garbage truck driver is actually quite high, because it's an unpleasant job and they need to attract people to do it. And because the salary is high, it's also heavily automated, with pickers that grab bins and empty them into the truck. Meanwhile, in Southeast Asia, the same job is done by three people, two of whom jog outside next to the vehicle in the sweltering heat and manually empty the bins into it. They're breaking their backs and get paid like crap.

birksherty 6y ago

People who complain are the ones who already already have good stable income, privileged. They don't have issue when someone owns billions.

dgellow 6y ago
I don’t have issues with people owning billions, AND I’m for a UBI (though not in the US, you have way too many issues to fix before even considering one IMHO). Weird isn’t it? Maybe things aren’t as black and white as you said and nuances are possible.

chadlavi 6y ago

A lot of the people objecting also think someday they're going to be a baron of industry who needs income incentives to keep workers toiling away for them.

luckylion 6y ago
No, that's just a straw man. A lot of people are paying giant amounts of taxes and they'd rather not see them go up much further.
- zanny 6y ago
  If your tax burden is overwhelming to your finances you are going to get more out of UBI than you get taxed into it lest its failed in its primary goal of wealth redistribution.
  - UK-Al05 6y ago
    You can still earn a lot, and be on the edge. I'm not, but a lot are.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    My tax burden isn't overwhelming, but I'd sure like to pay less rather than more. UBI would mean I'd have to pay more (no, "we'll just cut the overhead of existing social programs" will neither be enough -not by a long shot-, nor work, as we'll still need some/many of those social programs). I'd very much prefer others working as well instead of me having to work more to make up for their not-working, ergo I'm not such a big fan of that kind of wealth redistribution. I'd like a wealth redistribution combined with a work-load redistribution though. They work, I work less, I make less money, they make money, the contribute.
    - triceratops 6y ago
      UBI would ideally be based on taxing automation and increased productivity, not worker incomes.

prostoalex 6y ago

> At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panicking about my business. When I accepted the fate of my business, I chilled out and just hung out with my kids. You might be in the minority of people with mature enough emotional response and ability to deal with stress. What would happen if you had an existing alcohol/opiate/etc addiction? It seems that UBI provides few precautions from money flowing towards addictions and relies on everybody being at their best behavior and vice sector not expanding to capture that disposable income.

thephyber 6y ago
> You might be in the minority > What would happen if you had an existing alcohol/opiate/etc addiction? IIRC studies have shown that about 9-11% of Americans have/had an addiction. I think you should consider trying to find out if your assumption that the majority of people have addictions is substantiated. This article[1] claims 21 million Americans (out of 330+ million) have addictions, although it only includes drugs and alcohol. [1] https://www.addictioncenter.com/addiction/addiction-statistics/ https://www.addictioncenter.com/addiction/addiction-statisti...
- prostoalex 6y ago
  > your assumption that the majority of people have addictions that's not what I said
  - thephyber 6y ago
    After rereading, I agree with you.
d3nj4l 6y ago
You can read about the results of UBI experiments in Finland and Canada: Finland: https://www.kela.fi/web/en/news-archive/-/asset_publisher/lN08GY2nIrZo/content/results-of-the-basic-income-experiment-small-employment-effects-better-perceived-economic-security-and-mental-wellbeing https://www.kela.fi/web/en/news-archive/-/asset_publisher/lN... Canada: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200624-canadas-forgotten-universal-basic-income-experiment https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200624-canadas-forgot... This sentence in the BBC article above is great: > In particular, Forget was struck by the improvements in health outcomes over the four years. There was an 8.5% decline in hospitalisations – primarily because there were fewer alcohol-related accidents and hospitalisations due to mental health issues – and a reduction in visits to family physicians.

Shared404 6y ago

On the other hand, there's me. I hate not working. I would appreciate a UBI, as it would let me get out of a not so great place, and let me focus on working on what I like to do, but I would definitely still be doing useful work.

dantheman 6y ago
If the work your going to be doing is useful, then why don't you do it? Or is it objectively not as useful as your current occupation? In general the market compensates based on how much it is wanted by others. It's amazing what an individual will think is useful when doing the work, vs what a customer who pay for.
- Shared404 6y ago
  > If the work your going to be doing is useful, then why don't you do it? For me: I am doing/learning how to do it, but I don't have capability to monetize it right now. In general: I have personally known many people who want to have a career in X, but can't because they are working three jobs to try to house and feed themselves. > [I]s it objectively not as useful as your current occupation? For me: It is objectively more useful then my current occupation. I can't explain more without revealing more of my private life than I am comfortable doing here. In general: Regardless, something being less useful then something else doesn't make it not useful. 75% is less than 100%, but is still greater than 0%. --- Also, bonus argument for UBI. Most (all?) propositions for UBI I have seen will cover only the bare minimum. Almost everyone wants more than this, and will be willing to work to get the extra money. --- Edit 0: Add less situational arguments. Edit 1: Add bonus argument. Edit 2: Move things around because I'm stupid and can't get formatting right the first 3 times.
- lovehashbrowns 6y ago
  How many people would rather raise their kids than work one or more jobs? Or has raising kids not been deemed useful because "in general" the market will compensate based on how much others want it?
- boring_twenties 6y ago

BlahGod420 6y ago

> No way will I toil for someone else if I had a choice. You might collaborate, however.

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kyle_martin1 6y ago

This is called being comfortable with being lazy. You're allowed to do this but you should also be comfortable with the consequences too.

jubana 6y ago

So someone else should pay for you to sit around doing new hobbies? Glad you are having a good time, but how can you not view what you do as lazy from the eyes of society? There is no free lunch; the money is coming from somewhere.

treyfitty 6y ago
Call it lazy, or call it leisure. I’m privileged to take so much time off and still feed my kids. To have this much leisure is truly a blessing.

Bootwizard 6y ago

I'm in a similar situation after being laid off from my job. I would have a much more enjoyable life if I didn't have to find a new job. I've improved as a person more over the past few months than I have in the past few years working full-time. Now I have the time (all of it really) to actually think about who I am and how I can improve my habits, diet, health, etc. I feel like nearly everyone (especially in America) are too caught up in their careers to realize how unhappy and unhealthy they really are.

MrBuddyCasino 6y ago

> “do I toil away for the wealthy class? Or do I took away for myself?” This is a false dichotomy. You don’t toil for the wealthy, you toil for your fellow citizens to whom you provide a service. Nobody owes you a living.

zanny 6y ago
Your fellow citizens are not employing you or else the desolate ghettos would be overflowing with capital growth. Traditionally it takes a capitalist to start a business that can feed and house a population and that capitalist is in it to extract value from their labor. The job does not exist to serve the community, it exists to make the business owner richer. All the demand in the world will not build a sandwich shop lest a capitalist has the funds to build the building. Even if that capitalist is a local who can get a bank loan to do it, etc.
- UK-Al05 6y ago
  Returns on capital are just incentive for that guy to take out loan and take risk. As in many cases involving risk and uncertainty a few people had outsized returns from it.

nextlevelwizard 6y ago

My problem with UBI is that why would giving out "free money" change the world? Say I'm your landlord and you pay me $100/mo for rent. Now you start getting UBI thats $500/mo. Why wouldn't I increase my rent to $200/mo, $300/mo, or even $400/mo? I know that now you can afford the increase. So you'd still have to earn income if you wanted to stay in that place. All I see is prices going up for anything and everything in population centers. Only option for people who want the benefit of UBI (i.e. freedom to do whatever they want and not worry about working for a living) would be to move in smaller cities/towns where the demand for the housing is already low enough that price hiking wouldn't make sense. I also feel like UBI would divide the world even more wealth wise. People on UBI wouldn't be able to afford luxury goods or events since thous would be still aimed at the working people and for people to still work they would have to earn significantly more than what they would get on UBI. Putting this in other words: UBI would be the literal bare minimum to keep a roof over your head and food in your fridge. Forget streaming services. Forget eating out. Forget going to movies/concerts/theater. Easier way is to think UBI as "free meal" tickets and free housing. Which doesn't sound all that appealing.

zanny 6y ago
When those people move from high rent areas to the presently dilapidated small towns that UBI would revive the renters in the cities won't be able to price gouge their units like they are used to. Right now housing is totally out of wack because there is an extremely scarce resource (urban housing) that everyone wants and cartel like control of supply to prevent expansion thus making the price grow uncontrollably to consume as much of the maximum incomes earnable in the area as possible. If suddenly people had a choice between slave for subsistence wages in an extremely high CoL area or move somewhere incredibly cheap and live off government cheese those that make that choice will deflate the demand until a more equitable equilibrium is reached. So while your landlord could try charging you more for your UBI adjusted you will have the bargaining position that they almost certainly won't be able to replace you with someone willing to pay such outlandish rents. > Easier way is to think UBI as "free meal" tickets and free housing. Which doesn't sound all that appealing. For the 20% of food insecure families or ten million+ homeless people in the US it would probably be very appreciated. And it isn't just the outright homeless, its those currently in abusive households that have no out too. And it might surprise you, but the working poor - the 80% of paycheck to paycheckers - aren't going to luxury sporting events or buying luxury goods right now anyway. They are paid too little to afford it when the cost of subsistence is so high.

gfxgirl 6y ago

I really curious how many of the jobs no one wants to do would still get done. I get that the B in UBI is "basic" but still, so many necessary jobs are jobs no one really wants to do but they do because they need money. If they didn't need money would those jobs still get done. Trash collection? Construction work? Hotel cleaners? Janitors? Farmers, Grocery Store stockers, truckers, nurses, sales clerks, .... Sure they'd get more than "Basic" but if they knew they were housed and feed and got medical service until death if they did absolutely nothing how many would choose to do absolutely nothing? Would it be enough the world would be a much worse place to live? Would it be enough that the price of all those services would double, triple, quadruple raising the prices of all the related services and the amount needed for UBI? I don't like the idea of people suffering jobs they hate but I'm really glad and privileged they choose to do them.

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codeisawesome 6y ago
So the solution is to continue using suffering and historic injustice to force people into doing stuff they don’t want to do - “or else”? I don’t think so. In India, even middle class families can afford a part time house maid because the latter’s salaries are insanely low thanks to cruel supply/demand dynamics and poverty; the same family, after moving to a developed country, would just do the chores themselves. It leads to a more equitable society.
- deleted 6y ago
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IshKebab 6y ago

I thought the main objection to UBI is that everybody will stop working and the system will collapse. You seem to have just confirmed that point.