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Why do app stores need separate regulations? > They are the very definitions of predatory competition squashing monopolies. But they aren’t, this is a rather

Why do app stores need separate regulations? > They are the very definitions of predatory competition squashing monopolies. But they aren’t, this is a rather competitive space.

bronzeage 6y ago
The stock market is heavily regulated. Commodity markets are regulated. It's actually the slowness and corruption of the law makers that we're still without any regulations to virtual markets.
- ryanlol 6y ago
  How are app stores like stock markets or commodity markets?
simion314 6y ago
Competitive? How many places are where I can host a web page and how many app stores ? The ratio is probably much larger then 10000 : 1 .
_nalply 6y ago
Competitive between developers and perhaps platforms but absolutely a monopoly for iOS.
- ryanlol 6y ago
  This is as nonsensical as complaining about Disney having a monopoly in Disneyland.
  - jaywalk 6y ago
    Phones are not the private property of Apple and Google.
    - kube-system 6y ago
      That's true about the hardware.
  - ViViDboarder 6y ago
    It’s not like that at all... Disneyland sells Disney IP. These stores are marketplaces.
  - chownie 6y ago
    It is a false comparison to put Disney land (owned by Disney) and iOS devices (owned by Apple customers) side by side. We already had battles on this front, Microsoft had to offer competing browsers for some time at least in the EU. Manufacturing the platform ceases to afford dictatorship when the device reaches a large enough share of the population imo.
lacker 6y ago
It seems like a pretty clear duopoly to me, Apple and Android are the only two mobile platforms, and rather than compete with each other on price they are just both leaving their cut at 30%. Personally it’s not even the 30% I mind so much as, maybe there are cool new products like new mobile browsers that are just forbidden by the app stores and so we will never get them.
- ryanlol 6y ago
  Amazon appstore, F-droid, Huawei app store, Samsung Galaxy Apps and so on.
  - mcherm 6y ago
    What is the market share of those? Ideally measured two ways: in downloads and in dollars.
    - Spivak 6y ago
      You can’t claim poor market share as evidence. If iOS and the Play Store are “good enough” for people to not seek alternatives, and for devs to still publish apps, then 30% might not be a big enough cut.
  - kilo_bravo_3 6y ago
    None of those matter. Neither does the fact that you can buy a Linux phone, today. The people downvoting you just want to punish the wicked. It's like the digital content distribution discussions where even a single inconvenience or a perceived lack of value is met with "YARR ME MATEY SAIL THE SEVEN SEAS". When you point out that all of this (waves hand) is an optional luxury and if they want open culture they can choose to consume open (and public domain) culture you are looked at like you are a goblin and downvoted. They don't care about open culture they just want to punish music and film distributors. If they did care about open culture they would only consume culture that had been voluntarily released as free and open. There is plenty of creative commons, public domain, open source, and other free content for them to consume but they want the good stuff. They don't care about competitive app stores they just want to punish the app store owners. If they did care about open app stores they would all buy the PinePhone and support developers on that platform MAKING MINOR PERSONAL SACRIFICES until it was a success. But the people downvoting you don't care and will tie themselves into knots and find every hollow and vapid excuse why you are wrong and they are right.
hugey010 6y ago
They enforce intentionally anti-competitive policies. Referencing third party mobile platforms (Android) is not allowed in iOS apps. See 2.3.10 https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#accurate-metadata https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#acc...
jlmorton 6y ago
Competitive? It is an oligopoly with tacit collusion on price fixing. This is the exact reason why anti-trust legislation exists. A competitive market would be one in which the platform providers were forced to divest from the app markets, and support competing app markets which meet requirements, and which actively compete on features and price. If cars only supported gasoline from manufacturer gas stations, and 95% of the market was controlled by cars from GM and Ford, and once you bought a GM car you could only buy gasoline from a GM gas station, would you call the gasoline market competitive? To extend the metaphor, let's say it was technically possible to use third-party gas stations, but the manufacturers had hidden this ability, and it required a small amount of mechanical knowledge to enable, and maybe voided your warranty, would you then consider the market competitive?
- briandear 6y ago
  Can you prove price fixing? Or collusion? If you want to make the claim, then let’s see the proof.
  - jlmorton 6y ago
    You don't have to prove active collusion. Tacit price fixing is still anti-competitive behavior.
  - alias_neo 6y ago
    What options are there? Google Play, Apple App Store. How much do they take? 30% and 30%. Is there an option where they take less than 30% or where someone can compete on that cut? No. Is there a different store you can use with the same privileges as these two stores? No. Can you take your payments outside of the store and manage payment fees yourself so as to not give them 30%? No.
    - noisem4ker 6y ago
      I doubt it's news to you, but Android openly allows app stores other than Google's.
arnvald 6y ago
Not really, at least not in a sense that different products and stores compete. When I buy a phone I can choose from multiple models, then once I choose a model I can choose a store where I want to buy it. These 2 examples are competitive. Then I can choose what app I want to buy, but I can't choose anymore where I buy it (at least on IOS). There's no competition between stores. There's just competition between phone manufacturers that ends the moment you choose the phone, from then onwards is a monopoly (or near monopoly in case of Android)
solarkraft 6y ago
Oh, really? Which competitors to Apple are there on iOS?
- ryanlol 6y ago
  Which competitors to $car_manufacturer engines are there for $car_manufacturer cars? This is a stupid question. Whether or not there is competition on iOS doesn’t matter as long as there exists viable competition on any viable platform.
  - rcoder 6y ago
    ...and if all car manufacturers bought engines from the same factory (TSMC), used the same satnav (except one brand, who had a slightly-worse in-house clone), and an accelerator and gearbox from exactly one source (Google search) would you be more concerned about anticompetitive behavior? What if the manufacturers were allowed to produce "accessories" like batteries, tires, and child seats that refused to work in any other car, and actively sued repair shops that weren't official dealerships? Apple and Google may be competitors, strictly speaking, but the reality is they've pretty well carved up the market between premium buyers mostly concerned with fit+finish, prestige, and compatibility with other Apple devices, and the operating system and network infrastructure for, well, everything else. It's absolutely a duopoly, and so minimally competitive: either Google or Apple would happily claim leadership status, but neither party really wants the other to go away lest actual competition or government intervention cause them to lose control of their patch of ground.
    - ryanlol 6y ago
      > Apple and Google may be competitors, strictly speaking, but the reality is they've pretty well carved up the market between premium buyers mostly concerned with fit+finish, prestige, and compatibility with other Apple devices, and the operating system and network infrastructure for, well, everything else. Somehow there are heaps of expensive android phones that sell just fine. The flagship Samsung phones cost more than any iPhone. > It's absolutely a duopoly, and so minimally competitive Well no, there are tons of smartphone manufacturers with viable products.
ViViDboarder 6y ago
Huh? Which space is competitive? Apple and Google are pretty much the only shows in town and even more restricted is that the App Store is the exclusive store for iOS. In fact, they don’t even really compete with each other. Play is only on Android and App Store is only on iOS. You could say Android and iOS compete with each other, but once someone has bought a phone, they do not have a choice of where to buy apps.

Why do app stores need separate regulations? > They are the very definitions of predatory competition squashing monopolies. But they aren’t, this is a rather competitive space.

bronzeage 6y ago

The stock market is heavily regulated. Commodity markets are regulated. It's actually the slowness and corruption of the law makers that we're still without any regulations to virtual markets.

ryanlol 6y ago
How are app stores like stock markets or commodity markets?

simion314 6y ago

Competitive? How many places are where I can host a web page and how many app stores ? The ratio is probably much larger then 10000 : 1 .

_nalply 6y ago

Competitive between developers and perhaps platforms but absolutely a monopoly for iOS.

ryanlol 6y ago
This is as nonsensical as complaining about Disney having a monopoly in Disneyland.
- jaywalk 6y ago
  Phones are not the private property of Apple and Google.
  - kube-system 6y ago
    That's true about the hardware.
- ViViDboarder 6y ago
  It’s not like that at all... Disneyland sells Disney IP. These stores are marketplaces.
- chownie 6y ago
  It is a false comparison to put Disney land (owned by Disney) and iOS devices (owned by Apple customers) side by side. We already had battles on this front, Microsoft had to offer competing browsers for some time at least in the EU. Manufacturing the platform ceases to afford dictatorship when the device reaches a large enough share of the population imo.

lacker 6y ago

It seems like a pretty clear duopoly to me, Apple and Android are the only two mobile platforms, and rather than compete with each other on price they are just both leaving their cut at 30%. Personally it’s not even the 30% I mind so much as, maybe there are cool new products like new mobile browsers that are just forbidden by the app stores and so we will never get them.

ryanlol 6y ago
Amazon appstore, F-droid, Huawei app store, Samsung Galaxy Apps and so on.
- mcherm 6y ago
  What is the market share of those? Ideally measured two ways: in downloads and in dollars.
  - Spivak 6y ago
    You can’t claim poor market share as evidence. If iOS and the Play Store are “good enough” for people to not seek alternatives, and for devs to still publish apps, then 30% might not be a big enough cut.
- kilo_bravo_3 6y ago
  None of those matter. Neither does the fact that you can buy a Linux phone, today. The people downvoting you just want to punish the wicked. It's like the digital content distribution discussions where even a single inconvenience or a perceived lack of value is met with "YARR ME MATEY SAIL THE SEVEN SEAS". When you point out that all of this (waves hand) is an optional luxury and if they want open culture they can choose to consume open (and public domain) culture you are looked at like you are a goblin and downvoted. They don't care about open culture they just want to punish music and film distributors. If they did care about open culture they would only consume culture that had been voluntarily released as free and open. There is plenty of creative commons, public domain, open source, and other free content for them to consume but they want the good stuff. They don't care about competitive app stores they just want to punish the app store owners. If they did care about open app stores they would all buy the PinePhone and support developers on that platform MAKING MINOR PERSONAL SACRIFICES until it was a success. But the people downvoting you don't care and will tie themselves into knots and find every hollow and vapid excuse why you are wrong and they are right.

hugey010 6y ago

They enforce intentionally anti-competitive policies. Referencing third party mobile platforms (Android) is not allowed in iOS apps. See 2.3.10 https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#accurate-metadata https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#acc...

jlmorton 6y ago

Competitive? It is an oligopoly with tacit collusion on price fixing. This is the exact reason why anti-trust legislation exists. A competitive market would be one in which the platform providers were forced to divest from the app markets, and support competing app markets which meet requirements, and which actively compete on features and price. If cars only supported gasoline from manufacturer gas stations, and 95% of the market was controlled by cars from GM and Ford, and once you bought a GM car you could only buy gasoline from a GM gas station, would you call the gasoline market competitive? To extend the metaphor, let's say it was technically possible to use third-party gas stations, but the manufacturers had hidden this ability, and it required a small amount of mechanical knowledge to enable, and maybe voided your warranty, would you then consider the market competitive?

briandear 6y ago
Can you prove price fixing? Or collusion? If you want to make the claim, then let’s see the proof.
- jlmorton 6y ago
  You don't have to prove active collusion. Tacit price fixing is still anti-competitive behavior.
- alias_neo 6y ago
  What options are there? Google Play, Apple App Store. How much do they take? 30% and 30%. Is there an option where they take less than 30% or where someone can compete on that cut? No. Is there a different store you can use with the same privileges as these two stores? No. Can you take your payments outside of the store and manage payment fees yourself so as to not give them 30%? No.
  - noisem4ker 6y ago
    I doubt it's news to you, but Android openly allows app stores other than Google's.

arnvald 6y ago

Not really, at least not in a sense that different products and stores compete. When I buy a phone I can choose from multiple models, then once I choose a model I can choose a store where I want to buy it. These 2 examples are competitive. Then I can choose what app I want to buy, but I can't choose anymore where I buy it (at least on IOS). There's no competition between stores. There's just competition between phone manufacturers that ends the moment you choose the phone, from then onwards is a monopoly (or near monopoly in case of Android)

solarkraft 6y ago

Oh, really? Which competitors to Apple are there on iOS?

ryanlol 6y ago
Which competitors to $car_manufacturer engines are there for $car_manufacturer cars? This is a stupid question. Whether or not there is competition on iOS doesn’t matter as long as there exists viable competition on any viable platform.
- rcoder 6y ago
  ...and if all car manufacturers bought engines from the same factory (TSMC), used the same satnav (except one brand, who had a slightly-worse in-house clone), and an accelerator and gearbox from exactly one source (Google search) would you be more concerned about anticompetitive behavior? What if the manufacturers were allowed to produce "accessories" like batteries, tires, and child seats that refused to work in any other car, and actively sued repair shops that weren't official dealerships? Apple and Google may be competitors, strictly speaking, but the reality is they've pretty well carved up the market between premium buyers mostly concerned with fit+finish, prestige, and compatibility with other Apple devices, and the operating system and network infrastructure for, well, everything else. It's absolutely a duopoly, and so minimally competitive: either Google or Apple would happily claim leadership status, but neither party really wants the other to go away lest actual competition or government intervention cause them to lose control of their patch of ground.
  - ryanlol 6y ago
    > Apple and Google may be competitors, strictly speaking, but the reality is they've pretty well carved up the market between premium buyers mostly concerned with fit+finish, prestige, and compatibility with other Apple devices, and the operating system and network infrastructure for, well, everything else. Somehow there are heaps of expensive android phones that sell just fine. The flagship Samsung phones cost more than any iPhone. > It's absolutely a duopoly, and so minimally competitive Well no, there are tons of smartphone manufacturers with viable products.

ViViDboarder 6y ago

Huh? Which space is competitive? Apple and Google are pretty much the only shows in town and even more restricted is that the App Store is the exclusive store for iOS. In fact, they don’t even really compete with each other. Play is only on Android and App Store is only on iOS. You could say Android and iOS compete with each other, but once someone has bought a phone, they do not have a choice of where to buy apps.