7 ms·

> The US has 10-20M people 'off the books' working for crap wages, no health insurance. That is a huge part of why everything is so cheap in America. You assum

> The US has 10-20M people 'off the books' working for crap wages, no health insurance. That is a huge part of why everything is so cheap in America. You assume that middle class Americans are willing, available and able to do those jobs when paid higher wages and benefits. In my many years I have yet to find “Americans” doing roofing jobs for example.

dillonmckay 6y ago
This just depends on the area.
SuoDuanDao 6y ago
It seems a fair assumption - if nothing else, when those wages and benefits rise high enough anyone globally willing to do them could afford a decent immigration lawyer. This 'Americans are too lazy' narrative is used as justification for suppressing wages below what previous generations of Americans had gotten enshrined in law as fair compensation for a certain level of risk and discomfort.
dangus 6y ago
The lack of desirability of roofing jobs is not an excuse to abuse undocumented immigrants. If you pay roofers enough and make the job site as safe as possible they’ll do the job. But these companies would prefer to get easy, subservient labor with minimal safety equipment who can’t complain because they’ll get deported. Artificially underpaying entire industries by turning a blind eye to labor laws or making up industry-specific below market value rules (like agricultural migrant labor visa programs) isn’t really a solution to the problem, in my opinion. If every undocumented roofer was given a social security card and permission to work, they’d wonder why they’re risking their life on a roof when they’d get better pay, benefits, job security, and guaranteed retirement driving a bus for the city.
JeremyNT 6y ago
> You assume that middle class Americans are willing, available and able to do those jobs when paid higher wages and benefits. In my many years I have yet to find “Americans” doing roofing jobs for example. One would have to assume that eventually, when roofers are paid as much as those of us who are sitting here reading hackernews, there will be a steady stream of workers inclined to fill these positions. I feel like this is the sort of textbook example taught in Econ 101, and if the "free market" can't even solve even this sort of basic problem without a serf class of undocumented immigrants, it would imply that American-style capitalism itself is a failed experiment.
- rbecker 6y ago
  Do we really want to live in a society where putting a roof over someone's head is valued more than optimizing ad placement?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - MR4D 6y ago
    Do you really want to live in a society where optimizing billions of ads is valued 10,000 times more than saving lives in an ER ?
merpnderp 6y ago
If you don't think Americans are doing roofing, you must live in a strange place. The biggest roofing company in my state, Salazar roofing, is American owned and operated. The guy who roofed my house is a 60 year old teacher who roofs in the summer. And I don't mean he owns the business, I mean he owns the business and he's the primary guy doing the roofing, hiring kids wanting summer jobs to bring him shingles he puts down like some inhuman shingling robot, in pressed jeans and shirt.
- aka1234 6y ago
  "The biggest roofing company in my state, Salazar roofing, is American owned and operated." <--- This is a big part of what's happening. Most people screaming about how 'Americans' won't do jobs like farming or construction will look at a company named Salazar and assume that Salazar uses undocumented labor. These people will also drive by construct sites, count the number of white workers, and use that as a proxy for how many Americans are working on that job.
  - Supermancho 6y ago
    There are plenty of construction companies that are still using undocumented laborers. In 2015 when my grandparent's home was being torn down and rebuilt, our construction company used Peruvian and Portuguese undocumented labor, supervised by citizen foremen. We had to use our own electrical and plumbing to ensure it would pass city inspection (rather than have delays with corrections during intermediary visits) and complete on time.
    - Fjolsvith 6y ago
      Doubtful. Why? Because any under the table wages are taxed to the company or owner (if sole proprietor). Why pay your employees' taxes?
      - shadowgovt 6y ago
        You're always paying your employees' taxes. Documented workers with social security numbers need employer-provided SS and Medicare taxes paid for their "over the table" wages. A company pays fewer of its employees' taxes for undocumented labor.
cafard 6y ago
I've known various Americans (as in born here) who did roofing. Now, what does "middle class" mean? Four-year degree from Michigan State?
pgrote 6y ago
>In my many years I have yet to find “Americans” doing roofing jobs for example. Landscaping, too. I never understood this from an economic perspective. The USA has rules in place for hiring non-citizens to come the country and fill jobs in landscaping. There are X slots a year. Locally, the landscaping companies were complaining they couldn't do the work without those slots since they couldn't find workers due to the administration cutting the available non-citizen slots. They would come on the radio, complain to a host about hiring college kids to work, but they would leave after a few days. The landscaping companies weren't raising the wage paid to attract and keep the people who would stay, though. They did raise the wage slightly, but not enough to move the needle. Shouldn't the wage raise until you attract those people willing to do the work and stay? In turn, the cost of landscaping would rise to the customers.
- newacct583 6y ago
  > I never understood this from an economic perspective. The USA has rules in place for hiring non-citizens to come the country and fill jobs in landscaping. There are X slots a year. "X" is effectively zero. A few people get in legally via refugee status or family relationships, but in practice the number of green cards issued is a tiny, tiny fraction the number of jobs that are actually done by immigrant workers. And it seems like covid isn't adjusting this much. Newly-unemployed legal workers are not rushing into fill gaps in, say, farm worker employment that were previously held by undocumented people. The "Americans won't do these jobs" theory seems to be holding.
  - rdtwo 6y ago
    Why would they? The wages are shit and the living conditions are terrible. It’s way worse than working on the oil rigs but the pay is like 1/4. Of course legal workers arent running towards these jobs. Like literally any other job will pay better and cause less damage to you body and health. If farm workers payed fair wages and provided good living conditions and proper safety and ergonomic tools then sure more workers work be citizens but the disconnect is so large farms would have to double or triple wage costs so it’s easy to claim that they raised wages a buck or 2 and there were still no takers.
Nbox9 6y ago
I’ve meet lots of American roofers in the Deep South and the mountain west. Roofing pays more than the average construction position because of the risks involved and many Americans choose it. It’s also fairly easy to start a roofing company, so it attract a certain kind of entrepreneur.
jariel 6y ago
Well I said 1/2 of those jobs would be gone. Or that's what I implied. Most of them would be relocated. And Americans will definitely work in restaurants, they do everywhere else. Somehow all of Europe and Canada manage to have crops as well - granted - there may need to be migrant worker program for harvest, but that would be reasonable actually, if it were done legally. Consumer prices would rise no doubt.

dillonmckay 6y ago

This just depends on the area.

SuoDuanDao 6y ago

It seems a fair assumption - if nothing else, when those wages and benefits rise high enough anyone globally willing to do them could afford a decent immigration lawyer. This 'Americans are too lazy' narrative is used as justification for suppressing wages below what previous generations of Americans had gotten enshrined in law as fair compensation for a certain level of risk and discomfort.

dangus 6y ago

The lack of desirability of roofing jobs is not an excuse to abuse undocumented immigrants. If you pay roofers enough and make the job site as safe as possible they’ll do the job. But these companies would prefer to get easy, subservient labor with minimal safety equipment who can’t complain because they’ll get deported. Artificially underpaying entire industries by turning a blind eye to labor laws or making up industry-specific below market value rules (like agricultural migrant labor visa programs) isn’t really a solution to the problem, in my opinion. If every undocumented roofer was given a social security card and permission to work, they’d wonder why they’re risking their life on a roof when they’d get better pay, benefits, job security, and guaranteed retirement driving a bus for the city.

JeremyNT 6y ago

> You assume that middle class Americans are willing, available and able to do those jobs when paid higher wages and benefits. In my many years I have yet to find “Americans” doing roofing jobs for example. One would have to assume that eventually, when roofers are paid as much as those of us who are sitting here reading hackernews, there will be a steady stream of workers inclined to fill these positions. I feel like this is the sort of textbook example taught in Econ 101, and if the "free market" can't even solve even this sort of basic problem without a serf class of undocumented immigrants, it would imply that American-style capitalism itself is a failed experiment.

rbecker 6y ago
Do we really want to live in a society where putting a roof over someone's head is valued more than optimizing ad placement?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- MR4D 6y ago
  Do you really want to live in a society where optimizing billions of ads is valued 10,000 times more than saving lives in an ER ?

merpnderp 6y ago

If you don't think Americans are doing roofing, you must live in a strange place. The biggest roofing company in my state, Salazar roofing, is American owned and operated. The guy who roofed my house is a 60 year old teacher who roofs in the summer. And I don't mean he owns the business, I mean he owns the business and he's the primary guy doing the roofing, hiring kids wanting summer jobs to bring him shingles he puts down like some inhuman shingling robot, in pressed jeans and shirt.

aka1234 6y ago
"The biggest roofing company in my state, Salazar roofing, is American owned and operated." <--- This is a big part of what's happening. Most people screaming about how 'Americans' won't do jobs like farming or construction will look at a company named Salazar and assume that Salazar uses undocumented labor. These people will also drive by construct sites, count the number of white workers, and use that as a proxy for how many Americans are working on that job.
- Supermancho 6y ago
  There are plenty of construction companies that are still using undocumented laborers. In 2015 when my grandparent's home was being torn down and rebuilt, our construction company used Peruvian and Portuguese undocumented labor, supervised by citizen foremen. We had to use our own electrical and plumbing to ensure it would pass city inspection (rather than have delays with corrections during intermediary visits) and complete on time.
  - Fjolsvith 6y ago
    Doubtful. Why? Because any under the table wages are taxed to the company or owner (if sole proprietor). Why pay your employees' taxes?
    - shadowgovt 6y ago
      You're always paying your employees' taxes. Documented workers with social security numbers need employer-provided SS and Medicare taxes paid for their "over the table" wages. A company pays fewer of its employees' taxes for undocumented labor.

cafard 6y ago

I've known various Americans (as in born here) who did roofing. Now, what does "middle class" mean? Four-year degree from Michigan State?

pgrote 6y ago

>In my many years I have yet to find “Americans” doing roofing jobs for example. Landscaping, too. I never understood this from an economic perspective. The USA has rules in place for hiring non-citizens to come the country and fill jobs in landscaping. There are X slots a year. Locally, the landscaping companies were complaining they couldn't do the work without those slots since they couldn't find workers due to the administration cutting the available non-citizen slots. They would come on the radio, complain to a host about hiring college kids to work, but they would leave after a few days. The landscaping companies weren't raising the wage paid to attract and keep the people who would stay, though. They did raise the wage slightly, but not enough to move the needle. Shouldn't the wage raise until you attract those people willing to do the work and stay? In turn, the cost of landscaping would rise to the customers.

newacct583 6y ago
> I never understood this from an economic perspective. The USA has rules in place for hiring non-citizens to come the country and fill jobs in landscaping. There are X slots a year. "X" is effectively zero. A few people get in legally via refugee status or family relationships, but in practice the number of green cards issued is a tiny, tiny fraction the number of jobs that are actually done by immigrant workers. And it seems like covid isn't adjusting this much. Newly-unemployed legal workers are not rushing into fill gaps in, say, farm worker employment that were previously held by undocumented people. The "Americans won't do these jobs" theory seems to be holding.
- rdtwo 6y ago
  Why would they? The wages are shit and the living conditions are terrible. It’s way worse than working on the oil rigs but the pay is like 1/4. Of course legal workers arent running towards these jobs. Like literally any other job will pay better and cause less damage to you body and health. If farm workers payed fair wages and provided good living conditions and proper safety and ergonomic tools then sure more workers work be citizens but the disconnect is so large farms would have to double or triple wage costs so it’s easy to claim that they raised wages a buck or 2 and there were still no takers.

Nbox9 6y ago

I’ve meet lots of American roofers in the Deep South and the mountain west. Roofing pays more than the average construction position because of the risks involved and many Americans choose it. It’s also fairly easy to start a roofing company, so it attract a certain kind of entrepreneur.

jariel 6y ago

Well I said 1/2 of those jobs would be gone. Or that's what I implied. Most of them would be relocated. And Americans will definitely work in restaurants, they do everywhere else. Somehow all of Europe and Canada manage to have crops as well - granted - there may need to be migrant worker program for harvest, but that would be reasonable actually, if it were done legally. Consumer prices would rise no doubt.