6 ms·

As far as I can tell, someone actually happened to record a video of a slightly different ideal case: it was obviously a police officer murdering a black man wh

by makomk 6y ago

As far as I can tell, someone actually happened to record a video of a slightly different ideal case: it was obviously a police officer murdering a black man when carefully framed and portrayed that way, the most clear, vivid, brutal and unambigious demonstration of police racism and brutality - but only for people who already believed this. Basically, a cross between what this blog post describes and a maximum-strength scissor statement [1] The most vivid demonstration of this is that one phrase: "I can't breathe". It really is the most vivid image of racist police murder imaginable: a white officer kneeling on a black man's neck, slowly cutting off his air as he begs for mercy. It's appeared again and again in protests and news coverage worldwide. There's only one slight complication: Floyd started repeating that he "couldn't breathe" before he was down on the ground at all https://www.fox9.com/news/transcript-of-officers-body-camera-shows-george-floyd-told-officers-i-cant-breathe-before-being-restrained https://www.fox9.com/news/transcript-of-officers-body-camera... All of a sudden, things get a lot more fuzzy in terms of cause and effect and what the officers should've realized, and naturally one idelogical side has been claiming it debunks the whole thing whilst the other is using a different framing to claim this shows the police were even more depraved cold-hearted murderers than previously thought: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/08/george-floyd-police-killing-transcript-i-cant-breathe https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/08/george-floyd... It's almost the perfect scissor. Even if it had been the most clear-cut case imaginable, one of the first things that happened was to turn it into something divisive and effective for signalling by - for instance - demanding charges against the other officers present that seem extremely hard to justify legally speaking, and calling for Minneapolis to burn until that happened. There is no escape from the process described in this blog post. [1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/10/30/sort-by-controversial/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/10/30/sort-by-controversial/

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
polytely 6y ago
Kneeling on someone's neck for 9 minutes is inexcusable no matter what was said. In my opinion the most important aspect of the murder of George Floyd is the other cops who stood by and watched while their colleague committed murder. That was the thing that directly contradicted the prevailing 'it's just a few bad apples' narrative among the general populace, because it showed as clear as day that if a 'bad apple' feels like murdering you, their supposedly good colleagues will do nothing to stop it. The apathy to the suffering is staggering.
- HideousKojima 6y ago
  Even the neck kneeling isn't so clearly inexcusable: https://youtu.be/nD9AToZJRz4 https://youtu.be/nD9AToZJRz4 In the linked video, Czech police officers demonstrate that neck kneeling is an effective form of restraint that still allows the suspect to breathe.
  - dvtrn 6y ago
    Bloody hell its too early in the morning for this.
  - throwawayay47 6y ago
    I would not take that training video as factual evidence. In a real scenario the officer would be pressing much more force on the suspects neck than what is presented in the video. The placement of the knee is another important factor. Because we see in the video that the training partner is lying completely still and not giving up much of a fight. Why aren't they demonstrating a scenario where the suspect is trying to break the restraint? The upload date and content is also a direct response to the killing of George Floyd. It was uploaded not too long after his death. They even make a passing mention of it in the video too. This is clearly a video meant to push a narrative of policing techniques that don't actually work.
dariusj18 6y ago
That just says to me that the man was in distress, and instead of dealing with that distress, the police officer allowed him to die, possibly further exacerbating the issue. Either way, it does not paint a pretty picture, but I guess we're just more forgiving of someone preventing someone from living vs taking their life.
- refurb 6y ago
  Honest question - how many people being restrained by the police claim they are being injured in some way as a way to avoid/delay arrest?
  - dariusj18 6y ago
    That is a difficult question to answer. I imagine there is always a balancing act. Especially if the police have some rule in place, it could create situations that criminals would attempt to take advantage of. However, I have always been of the mind that I'd rather a guilty person walk free than an innocent person not. And there are always consideration of how use of force can affect those who see it, with secondary effects creating, what I imagine, are the more troublesome effects. I did find this https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=84 https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=84 and this https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/176330.pdf https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/176330.pdf while attempting to research this, they are certainly interesting reads.
aidenn0 6y ago
- One poll showed only 10% of Americans calling the Floyd death a "Tragic accident." With the majority calling it murder. That's not even close to a perfect scissor. - I have several cop friends, from a relatively geographically diverse range of the US. All of them say that how Floyd was arrested was at a minimum against procedure, and almost certainly contributory to his death. - One cop I spoke to pointed out that his training mandated that once a prone subject is handcuffed, their training mandates rolling them onto their side, as being unable to leverage oneself up can restrict breathing, even if nobody's kneeling on you. He also pointed out that kneeling on the neck or back in order to handcuff someone is well within procedure at his department, but continuing after they are restrained is obviously not.
- ajmurmann 6y ago
  "- I have several cop friends, from a relatively geographically diverse range of the US. All of them say that how Floyd was arrested was at a minimum against procedure, and almost certainly contributory to his death. - One cop I spoke to pointed out that his training mandated that once a prone subject is handcuffed, their training mandates rolling them onto their side, as being unable to leverage oneself up can restrict breathing, even if nobody's kneeling on you. He also pointed out that kneeling on the neck or back in order to handcuff someone is well within procedure at his department, but continuing after they are restrained is obviously not." That's the thing I don't get and that is the most upsetting thing to me about this situation: why aren't police officers speaking out more against each other? The only voices I hear from the police are coming out in defense of other officers who did something bad. This to me reinforces the impression that it's not a small minority that's the problem, but the entire institution. Is the media just not picking these voices up? If there had been strong voices within the police calling for reform and officers had kneeled with the protestors instead of attacking even peaceful ones, the situation now would look very different.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    > why aren't police officers speaking out more against each other? Fear of reprisals from other officers? (This has happened in a few cases.)
BoorishBears 6y ago
> All of a sudden, things get a lot more fuzzy in terms of cause and effect It got more fuzzy for who?! The kind of people who will turn the most clear cut case of police brutality we've seen in years into their own personal chance to play "devils advocate" and be the obligatory contrarian no one needed, wanted, or asked for? - Because, after all, do you think the fact he was in respiratory distress means the officer should have knelt on his neck for 9 more minutes while he begged for mercy and was reduced to crying for his mother? Do you think having your neck knelt on for 9 minutes is an appropriate response for respiratory distress? It makes them look like even more cold blooded murders. It makes their initial excuse of "he was faking to get out of the hold" even more abominable If he was in such respiratory distress that he was dying before being knelt on, it could be interpreted he additionally needed 9 consecutive minutes of having a knee on his neck? I was wondering how that could be an unpopular sentiment then I realized, I broke the first rule of HN. You can be as passive aggressive about tech stuff as you want, but don't be overtly heated about anything "political", like police murdering (sorry, manslaughtering) people in broad daylight
pjc50 6y ago
> demanding charges against the other officers present that seem extremely hard to justify legally speaking, and calling for Minneapolis to burn until that happened Demanding a moderate response in polite terms has been demonstrated to get you nothing. Nobody making those demands realistically expects them to be met. There is a vague hope that some incredibly watered-down version might come about. It's rather like pushing at a stuck door that's become stiffer over time and ultimately locked. If you shoulder-charge it, maybe it will budge.

by makomk 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

polytely 6y ago

Kneeling on someone's neck for 9 minutes is inexcusable no matter what was said. In my opinion the most important aspect of the murder of George Floyd is the other cops who stood by and watched while their colleague committed murder. That was the thing that directly contradicted the prevailing 'it's just a few bad apples' narrative among the general populace, because it showed as clear as day that if a 'bad apple' feels like murdering you, their supposedly good colleagues will do nothing to stop it. The apathy to the suffering is staggering.

HideousKojima 6y ago
Even the neck kneeling isn't so clearly inexcusable: https://youtu.be/nD9AToZJRz4 https://youtu.be/nD9AToZJRz4 In the linked video, Czech police officers demonstrate that neck kneeling is an effective form of restraint that still allows the suspect to breathe.
- dvtrn 6y ago
  Bloody hell its too early in the morning for this.
- throwawayay47 6y ago
  I would not take that training video as factual evidence. In a real scenario the officer would be pressing much more force on the suspects neck than what is presented in the video. The placement of the knee is another important factor. Because we see in the video that the training partner is lying completely still and not giving up much of a fight. Why aren't they demonstrating a scenario where the suspect is trying to break the restraint? The upload date and content is also a direct response to the killing of George Floyd. It was uploaded not too long after his death. They even make a passing mention of it in the video too. This is clearly a video meant to push a narrative of policing techniques that don't actually work.

dariusj18 6y ago

That just says to me that the man was in distress, and instead of dealing with that distress, the police officer allowed him to die, possibly further exacerbating the issue. Either way, it does not paint a pretty picture, but I guess we're just more forgiving of someone preventing someone from living vs taking their life.

refurb 6y ago
Honest question - how many people being restrained by the police claim they are being injured in some way as a way to avoid/delay arrest?
- dariusj18 6y ago
  That is a difficult question to answer. I imagine there is always a balancing act. Especially if the police have some rule in place, it could create situations that criminals would attempt to take advantage of. However, I have always been of the mind that I'd rather a guilty person walk free than an innocent person not. And there are always consideration of how use of force can affect those who see it, with secondary effects creating, what I imagine, are the more troublesome effects. I did find this https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=84 https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=84 and this https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/176330.pdf https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/176330.pdf while attempting to research this, they are certainly interesting reads.

aidenn0 6y ago

- One poll showed only 10% of Americans calling the Floyd death a "Tragic accident." With the majority calling it murder. That's not even close to a perfect scissor. - I have several cop friends, from a relatively geographically diverse range of the US. All of them say that how Floyd was arrested was at a minimum against procedure, and almost certainly contributory to his death. - One cop I spoke to pointed out that his training mandated that once a prone subject is handcuffed, their training mandates rolling them onto their side, as being unable to leverage oneself up can restrict breathing, even if nobody's kneeling on you. He also pointed out that kneeling on the neck or back in order to handcuff someone is well within procedure at his department, but continuing after they are restrained is obviously not.

ajmurmann 6y ago
"- I have several cop friends, from a relatively geographically diverse range of the US. All of them say that how Floyd was arrested was at a minimum against procedure, and almost certainly contributory to his death. - One cop I spoke to pointed out that his training mandated that once a prone subject is handcuffed, their training mandates rolling them onto their side, as being unable to leverage oneself up can restrict breathing, even if nobody's kneeling on you. He also pointed out that kneeling on the neck or back in order to handcuff someone is well within procedure at his department, but continuing after they are restrained is obviously not." That's the thing I don't get and that is the most upsetting thing to me about this situation: why aren't police officers speaking out more against each other? The only voices I hear from the police are coming out in defense of other officers who did something bad. This to me reinforces the impression that it's not a small minority that's the problem, but the entire institution. Is the media just not picking these voices up? If there had been strong voices within the police calling for reform and officers had kneeled with the protestors instead of attacking even peaceful ones, the situation now would look very different.
- pjc50 6y ago
  > why aren't police officers speaking out more against each other? Fear of reprisals from other officers? (This has happened in a few cases.)

BoorishBears 6y ago

> All of a sudden, things get a lot more fuzzy in terms of cause and effect It got more fuzzy for who?! The kind of people who will turn the most clear cut case of police brutality we've seen in years into their own personal chance to play "devils advocate" and be the obligatory contrarian no one needed, wanted, or asked for? - Because, after all, do you think the fact he was in respiratory distress means the officer should have knelt on his neck for 9 more minutes while he begged for mercy and was reduced to crying for his mother? Do you think having your neck knelt on for 9 minutes is an appropriate response for respiratory distress? It makes them look like even more cold blooded murders. It makes their initial excuse of "he was faking to get out of the hold" even more abominable If he was in such respiratory distress that he was dying before being knelt on, it could be interpreted he additionally needed 9 consecutive minutes of having a knee on his neck? I was wondering how that could be an unpopular sentiment then I realized, I broke the first rule of HN. You can be as passive aggressive about tech stuff as you want, but don't be overtly heated about anything "political", like police murdering (sorry, manslaughtering) people in broad daylight

pjc50 6y ago

> demanding charges against the other officers present that seem extremely hard to justify legally speaking, and calling for Minneapolis to burn until that happened Demanding a moderate response in polite terms has been demonstrated to get you nothing. Nobody making those demands realistically expects them to be met. There is a vague hope that some incredibly watered-down version might come about. It's rather like pushing at a stuck door that's become stiffer over time and ultimately locked. If you shoulder-charge it, maybe it will budge.