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What is the larger significance here? Does this mean the gun industry is struggling? Sounds unlikely given the spike in purchases. Maybe it's just another old

What is the larger significance here? Does this mean the gun industry is struggling? Sounds unlikely given the spike in purchases. Maybe it's just another old company that once had a good reputation but has lost its way. PE probably involved. Or maybe there is some market shift. Like, fewer hunters purchasing lever actions and more urbanites buying semi-auto pistols.

killjoywashere 6y ago
Probably Cerberus trying to extract more money from government clients.
paulie_a 6y ago
Honestly no. If anything the gun industry holds a substantial bit of political power considering the average American doesn't even own a gun. Edit:. Touchy subject but it's a fact the average American doesn't own a gun. The political influence is substantial on the other hand. I'm not anti gun because it should be an inconsequential topic. It's like vegans had the big seat at the table.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  It's definitely touchy, but I think even in abstract it's a bit misleading to say in isolation that the average American doesn't own a gun. There are areas of the country where guns are rare, but there are also many areas where they're very normalized and most households have one.
  - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
    There’s a town in Georgia where owning a gun is mandatory.
    - paulie_a 6y ago
      It's "mandstory" The same way in some town in Maryland you can't feed ducks on Sunday. Its a law that is left on the book, completely ignored and largely forgotten about
    - elkos 6y ago
      What happens if you are a foreigner and you choose to live there?
      - blaser-waffle 6y ago
        If you've got a valid green card you can own a gun, no question. Pretty sure you can own a gun on working visas as well, though there is the logistical issue of if/when the visa expires -- chances are you're not taking it with you.
        rjbwork 6y ago
        Yes - my co-worker is Serbian/Canadian, has a green card, and owns a bunch of guns.
      - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        IIRC they did it as a political statement and have a bunch of exceptions/loopholes that more or less make it so that anyone who doesn't want to doesn't have to.
- ancientworldnow 6y ago
  30% of American adults own a gun and 43% live in a gun household [1] and only about 40% of Americans bother to vote in presidential elections. Gun owners are more political than non-owners [2] so it's not unlikely that half of all voters or more are gun owners or live in gun households. That's a significant political force. Vegans, in contrast, make up around 0.4-3% of Americans depending on the poll [3]. [1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own... [2] https://today.ku.edu/2018/08/21/gun-owners-are-more-active-political-participation-study-finds https://today.ku.edu/2018/08/21/gun-owners-are-more-active-p... [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country
  - paulie_a 6y ago
    I was being absurd in my comparison to veganism But 70 percent of Americans do not own a gun. Am I being obtuse to say a minority of Americans own a gun? Living in a household is completely irrelevant.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      70% of Americans are white but we still care about the minority vote. (Living in a gun-owning household is not irrelevant. For the reasons people buy guns—hunting, self-defense, etc., you don’t need everyone to have a gun in their own name.)
      - paulie_a 6y ago
        So was I incorrect in my statementt that a minority of Americans own a gun. And yes it is irrelevant. I do not control, perhaps do not even know what a roommate owns and vice versa. And that only pushed the needle up a but, to still being in the minority. You mention minorities? Gun owners are a minority
        motorcycleman9 6y ago
        You were not incorrect to say they are a minority. Nobody factually disputed you on this detail. However, other folks added relevant details to show the prevalence of fun ownership and to give context to the political influence of gun owners.
AmVess 6y ago
People are buying bolt actions like there's no tomorrow. Just not from Remington. Tikka, for instance, has been a sleepy brand here in the US for a while, but their popularity has exploded in recent years. Remington's owners have stripped away many of the skilled gunsmiths they used to have. A new Remington is not a very well machined firearm, and enthusiasts have found this out and no longer buy their products.
- jacobush 6y ago
  Even the concept of gunsmiths making serial production guns is weird to me. Gunsmiths should do repair, factories with robots and CNC machines should make high precision gear.
  - rascul 6y ago
    Gunsmiths design and create the guns. Much of the manufacturing is done by machine.
  - AmVess 6y ago
    CNC machines do the bulk manufacturing. In high end shops, gunsmiths do the final finish work. It used to be that high production firearms still had gunsmiths overseeing production. Now, in places like Remington, firearms come off the machines and get put right into the box. A range friend of mine is on his 3rd new Remington 700. He sent the original new unit back and they shipped him a new one. It was defective, he sent it back. They sent him another one. This was in the last 6 months. These were all issues with the machining of the chamber that should never have been shipped in the first place. A simple check with a flashlight would have revealed the problems that were plainly visible to the naked eye. Conversely, I have 7 Remington products that I purchased new as late as 2005 and they have all been perfect.
    - HelloNurse 6y ago
      So the problem is mostly lack of quality assurance, rather than an intrinsically bad product? With proper quality control, where would the Remington 700 fall in the scale from cheap to average to good? Is it overpriced, or technically inferior, or strange, compared to the competition? It's interesting because removing people who inspect shotguns is quick, easy and relatively reversible, while declining product quality and loss of design and production skills are normally gradual trends with an eventful story of bad decisions.
LyndsySimon 6y ago
Remington tried to pivot into the semi-auto handgun market with the R51. It’s a good design, but one that doesn’t mesh well with modern manufacturing techniques. They pumped a ton of money into getting it to market, and they just couldn’t make it profitable.
- pluto9 6y ago
  I'd never heard of the R51, but after Googling it...good lord. I'd never buy it just based on its appearance. It looks more like a hot glue gun than a pistol.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
atwebb 6y ago
Think of Schwinn and bicycles Or Craftsman and tools Once known as industry leaders then moves in production and cost savings meant an inferior product. Eventually people caught on and the brand was done.
rs999gti 6y ago
> Does this mean the gun industry is struggling? Far from struggling. COVID, the looming election, and the riots have made it a boom time for gun sales. Remington, unfortunately is like Harley, expensive, low quality, and trading on previous legacy.
kevwil 6y ago
Industry is very strong, but PE-controlled Remington has lost their way. What's interesting to me is the 700 action design is becoming the dominant default pattern from custom manufacturers. Bighorn, ARC, Defiance, GAP, Kelbly's, Curtis, Ultimatum, Stiller, Surgeon, BAT Machine, Terminus, Impact, Falcor, Vudoo, etc. - all are compatible with a huge variety of stocks and triggers designed for the Remington 700 action specs. It will be odd if the actual Remington 700 is not in that list anymore, given the popularity of the design.
banku_brougham 6y ago
Its bc of the Sandy Hook lawsuit in CT. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23984730 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23984730

killjoywashere 6y ago

Probably Cerberus trying to extract more money from government clients.

paulie_a 6y ago

Honestly no. If anything the gun industry holds a substantial bit of political power considering the average American doesn't even own a gun. Edit:. Touchy subject but it's a fact the average American doesn't own a gun. The political influence is substantial on the other hand. I'm not anti gun because it should be an inconsequential topic. It's like vegans had the big seat at the table.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
It's definitely touchy, but I think even in abstract it's a bit misleading to say in isolation that the average American doesn't own a gun. There are areas of the country where guns are rare, but there are also many areas where they're very normalized and most households have one.
- read_if_gay_ 6y ago
  There’s a town in Georgia where owning a gun is mandatory.
  - paulie_a 6y ago
    It's "mandstory" The same way in some town in Maryland you can't feed ducks on Sunday. Its a law that is left on the book, completely ignored and largely forgotten about
  - elkos 6y ago
    What happens if you are a foreigner and you choose to live there?
    - blaser-waffle 6y ago
      If you've got a valid green card you can own a gun, no question. Pretty sure you can own a gun on working visas as well, though there is the logistical issue of if/when the visa expires -- chances are you're not taking it with you.
      - rjbwork 6y ago
        Yes - my co-worker is Serbian/Canadian, has a green card, and owns a bunch of guns.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      IIRC they did it as a political statement and have a bunch of exceptions/loopholes that more or less make it so that anyone who doesn't want to doesn't have to.
ancientworldnow 6y ago
30% of American adults own a gun and 43% live in a gun household [1] and only about 40% of Americans bother to vote in presidential elections. Gun owners are more political than non-owners [2] so it's not unlikely that half of all voters or more are gun owners or live in gun households. That's a significant political force. Vegans, in contrast, make up around 0.4-3% of Americans depending on the poll [3]. [1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own... [2] https://today.ku.edu/2018/08/21/gun-owners-are-more-active-political-participation-study-finds https://today.ku.edu/2018/08/21/gun-owners-are-more-active-p... [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country
- paulie_a 6y ago
  I was being absurd in my comparison to veganism But 70 percent of Americans do not own a gun. Am I being obtuse to say a minority of Americans own a gun? Living in a household is completely irrelevant.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    70% of Americans are white but we still care about the minority vote. (Living in a gun-owning household is not irrelevant. For the reasons people buy guns—hunting, self-defense, etc., you don’t need everyone to have a gun in their own name.)
    - paulie_a 6y ago
      So was I incorrect in my statementt that a minority of Americans own a gun. And yes it is irrelevant. I do not control, perhaps do not even know what a roommate owns and vice versa. And that only pushed the needle up a but, to still being in the minority. You mention minorities? Gun owners are a minority
      - motorcycleman9 6y ago
        You were not incorrect to say they are a minority. Nobody factually disputed you on this detail. However, other folks added relevant details to show the prevalence of fun ownership and to give context to the political influence of gun owners.

AmVess 6y ago

People are buying bolt actions like there's no tomorrow. Just not from Remington. Tikka, for instance, has been a sleepy brand here in the US for a while, but their popularity has exploded in recent years. Remington's owners have stripped away many of the skilled gunsmiths they used to have. A new Remington is not a very well machined firearm, and enthusiasts have found this out and no longer buy their products.

jacobush 6y ago
Even the concept of gunsmiths making serial production guns is weird to me. Gunsmiths should do repair, factories with robots and CNC machines should make high precision gear.
- rascul 6y ago
  Gunsmiths design and create the guns. Much of the manufacturing is done by machine.
- AmVess 6y ago
  CNC machines do the bulk manufacturing. In high end shops, gunsmiths do the final finish work. It used to be that high production firearms still had gunsmiths overseeing production. Now, in places like Remington, firearms come off the machines and get put right into the box. A range friend of mine is on his 3rd new Remington 700. He sent the original new unit back and they shipped him a new one. It was defective, he sent it back. They sent him another one. This was in the last 6 months. These were all issues with the machining of the chamber that should never have been shipped in the first place. A simple check with a flashlight would have revealed the problems that were plainly visible to the naked eye. Conversely, I have 7 Remington products that I purchased new as late as 2005 and they have all been perfect.
  - HelloNurse 6y ago
    So the problem is mostly lack of quality assurance, rather than an intrinsically bad product? With proper quality control, where would the Remington 700 fall in the scale from cheap to average to good? Is it overpriced, or technically inferior, or strange, compared to the competition? It's interesting because removing people who inspect shotguns is quick, easy and relatively reversible, while declining product quality and loss of design and production skills are normally gradual trends with an eventful story of bad decisions.

LyndsySimon 6y ago

Remington tried to pivot into the semi-auto handgun market with the R51. It’s a good design, but one that doesn’t mesh well with modern manufacturing techniques. They pumped a ton of money into getting it to market, and they just couldn’t make it profitable.

pluto9 6y ago
I'd never heard of the R51, but after Googling it...good lord. I'd never buy it just based on its appearance. It looks more like a hot glue gun than a pistol.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

atwebb 6y ago

Think of Schwinn and bicycles Or Craftsman and tools Once known as industry leaders then moves in production and cost savings meant an inferior product. Eventually people caught on and the brand was done.

rs999gti 6y ago

> Does this mean the gun industry is struggling? Far from struggling. COVID, the looming election, and the riots have made it a boom time for gun sales. Remington, unfortunately is like Harley, expensive, low quality, and trading on previous legacy.

kevwil 6y ago

Industry is very strong, but PE-controlled Remington has lost their way. What's interesting to me is the 700 action design is becoming the dominant default pattern from custom manufacturers. Bighorn, ARC, Defiance, GAP, Kelbly's, Curtis, Ultimatum, Stiller, Surgeon, BAT Machine, Terminus, Impact, Falcor, Vudoo, etc. - all are compatible with a huge variety of stocks and triggers designed for the Remington 700 action specs. It will be odd if the actual Remington 700 is not in that list anymore, given the popularity of the design.

banku_brougham 6y ago

Its bc of the Sandy Hook lawsuit in CT. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23984730 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23984730