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I appreciate Bill Sourour for acknowledging the issue in the industry and coming to terms with what it seems like a heavy burden at young age. When I was takin

I appreciate Bill Sourour for acknowledging the issue in the industry and coming to terms with what it seems like a heavy burden at young age. When I was taking CS Engineering UG course(IN~2008), there was an elective subject(have to be chosen by entire class) called 'Engineering Ethics'. It was a preferred elective as there was no course work and I think there were no tests as well. I remember the professor starting the class as, >"If a Structural/Civil Engineer builds a bridge and it goes down, he/she will go to jail; lucky for you guys there are no ethics for computer science". Now that a code can easily manipulate the life of an individual, I think we need to bring in accountability into CS/programming along with universal whistleblower protections for reporting unethical behaviour at work from UN.

Nursie 6y ago
"If a Structural/Civil Engineer builds a bridge and it goes down, he/she will go to jail" How true is this? I've never heard of such a thing happening. Of course catastrophic accidents of that sort are thankfully very rare (maybe because of the accountability)... Does it apply in cases of negligence or clear-cut corner-cutting, with proven intent? Or just in any case of structural failure? In which countries? I'm not calling you a liar, for the record, it just gets bandied about a lot, and I would like some context.
- cls59 6y ago
  As someone who was on the Civil Engineering track prior to ending up in tech, jail time seems unlikely unless the breach of ethics was particularly egregious. The consequence of poor decision making in a Professional Engineering setting that we were most often warned against was ejection from the profession. If your work results in the loss of life or property, you may find yourself unable to continue working in the field due to loss of license or a steep increase in insurance premiums. As a software "engineer", the consequences for poor professionalism are not as sharply defined.
  - Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
    I have replied to another similar comment in this thread.
  - wink 6y ago
    I don't like the comparison though. If you build stuff the cement mix you'd been using for 10 years isn't suddenly changed. I'm not trying to imply that writing software is harder, but it's a lot more finicky and shifting. Also you're the architect, the bricklayer and the person taking out the trash - all by yourself and usually getting alotted time for a 1/3 of it. I'm actually often surprised software works at all..
- PeterisP 6y ago
  We had a local incident a few years ago where the roof of a shopping centre collapsed during renovation, killing multiple people. Not much info in English about it to quote, but one of the legal consequences was conviction of the structural engineer who signed off without proper verification the changes to a key construction element that made it insufficiently sturdy for the load. He was sentenced to six years jail for violation of construction regulations and manslaughter by negligence. In general, if a bridge/building goes down due to a honest mistake, that would not result in criminal charges, however, the planning and approval process is designed so that simple mistakes by a single person don't result in such failures, and it needs some clear violation of the process - not doing a mandated re-verification of calculations someone else made, faking some signatures of approval, intentionally skipping parts of process or change documentation, etc; those are unethical acts which make you criminally liable if they result in actual harm to people.
- Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
  >How true is this? I've never heard of such a thing happening. May be its more common in India, could be very well be the norm because every time a bridge goes down a related Engineer gets arrested the very same day or soon under 'Causing death by negligence'; perhaps a practice from colonial era still being practiced to pacify public. Read: Another BMC engineer arrested in Mumbai bridge collapse(2019)[1] Bhubaneswar flyover collapse: Engineer, director of construction firm arrested(2017)[2] 4 Engineers Arrested In Kolkata Flyover Collapse Case(2016)[3] IIT Roorkee: Two professors arrested in bridge collapse case(2015)[4] SMC engineer held in bridge collapse case suspended(2014)[5] Gammon, Hyundai officials arrested, probe ordered(2009)[6] I'm sure you can pull up such cases going back at least 200 years. [1]https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/020419/another-bmc-engineer-arrested-in-mumbai-bridge-collapse.html https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/02041... [2]https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/bhubaneswar-flyover-collapse-engineer-director-of-construction-firm-arrested/story-qZbWHlzGgoeCQ7xbw179yI.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/bhubaneswar-flyove... [3]https://www.ndtv.com/kolkata-news/4-engineers-arrested-in-kolkata-flyover-collapse-case-1621175 https://www.ndtv.com/kolkata-news/4-engineers-arrested-in-ko... [4]https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/iit-roorkee-two-professors-arrested-in-bridge-collapse-case-261726-2015-09-07 https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/iit-roorkee-two-profes... [5]http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/38044181.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/38044181.cms [6]https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/kota-bridge-collapse-30-dead-25-still-trapped-407537 https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/kota-bridge-collapse-30-dead...
- Nursie 6y ago
  Just wanted to say thanks for your replies, everyone, that's interesting info, and it looks like it's limited in some countries to negligence, particularly wilful negligence. Though it may vary by country. No, software engineers don't often have the same levels of responsibility. Personally I do have a indemnity insurance of various forms which could pay out in the event I am sued over this sort of thing, but that's because I'm operating as an independent consultant with my own company. It appears, in the UK market, to mostly be understood by all parties (my clients, the insurers, myself) to be a formality, and criminal liability is very far from my mind. I can't think how we would get there.
ZephyrBlu 6y ago
> "If a Structural/Civil Engineer builds a bridge and they sign off on it and it goes down, he/she will go to jail" Fixed. For all intents and purposes, you can still work as an engineer without having to take responsibility for your work. I don't think it's a great system because the person who signs off on it becomes the scapegoat if something goes wrong.
- Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
  I have replied to another similar comment in this thread.

Nursie 6y ago

"If a Structural/Civil Engineer builds a bridge and it goes down, he/she will go to jail" How true is this? I've never heard of such a thing happening. Of course catastrophic accidents of that sort are thankfully very rare (maybe because of the accountability)... Does it apply in cases of negligence or clear-cut corner-cutting, with proven intent? Or just in any case of structural failure? In which countries? I'm not calling you a liar, for the record, it just gets bandied about a lot, and I would like some context.

cls59 6y ago
As someone who was on the Civil Engineering track prior to ending up in tech, jail time seems unlikely unless the breach of ethics was particularly egregious. The consequence of poor decision making in a Professional Engineering setting that we were most often warned against was ejection from the profession. If your work results in the loss of life or property, you may find yourself unable to continue working in the field due to loss of license or a steep increase in insurance premiums. As a software "engineer", the consequences for poor professionalism are not as sharply defined.
- Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
  I have replied to another similar comment in this thread.
- wink 6y ago
  I don't like the comparison though. If you build stuff the cement mix you'd been using for 10 years isn't suddenly changed. I'm not trying to imply that writing software is harder, but it's a lot more finicky and shifting. Also you're the architect, the bricklayer and the person taking out the trash - all by yourself and usually getting alotted time for a 1/3 of it. I'm actually often surprised software works at all..
PeterisP 6y ago
We had a local incident a few years ago where the roof of a shopping centre collapsed during renovation, killing multiple people. Not much info in English about it to quote, but one of the legal consequences was conviction of the structural engineer who signed off without proper verification the changes to a key construction element that made it insufficiently sturdy for the load. He was sentenced to six years jail for violation of construction regulations and manslaughter by negligence. In general, if a bridge/building goes down due to a honest mistake, that would not result in criminal charges, however, the planning and approval process is designed so that simple mistakes by a single person don't result in such failures, and it needs some clear violation of the process - not doing a mandated re-verification of calculations someone else made, faking some signatures of approval, intentionally skipping parts of process or change documentation, etc; those are unethical acts which make you criminally liable if they result in actual harm to people.
Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
>How true is this? I've never heard of such a thing happening. May be its more common in India, could be very well be the norm because every time a bridge goes down a related Engineer gets arrested the very same day or soon under 'Causing death by negligence'; perhaps a practice from colonial era still being practiced to pacify public. Read: Another BMC engineer arrested in Mumbai bridge collapse(2019)[1] Bhubaneswar flyover collapse: Engineer, director of construction firm arrested(2017)[2] 4 Engineers Arrested In Kolkata Flyover Collapse Case(2016)[3] IIT Roorkee: Two professors arrested in bridge collapse case(2015)[4] SMC engineer held in bridge collapse case suspended(2014)[5] Gammon, Hyundai officials arrested, probe ordered(2009)[6] I'm sure you can pull up such cases going back at least 200 years. [1]https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/020419/another-bmc-engineer-arrested-in-mumbai-bridge-collapse.html https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/02041... [2]https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/bhubaneswar-flyover-collapse-engineer-director-of-construction-firm-arrested/story-qZbWHlzGgoeCQ7xbw179yI.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/bhubaneswar-flyove... [3]https://www.ndtv.com/kolkata-news/4-engineers-arrested-in-kolkata-flyover-collapse-case-1621175 https://www.ndtv.com/kolkata-news/4-engineers-arrested-in-ko... [4]https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/iit-roorkee-two-professors-arrested-in-bridge-collapse-case-261726-2015-09-07 https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/iit-roorkee-two-profes... [5]http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/38044181.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/38044181.cms [6]https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/kota-bridge-collapse-30-dead-25-still-trapped-407537 https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/kota-bridge-collapse-30-dead...
Nursie 6y ago
Just wanted to say thanks for your replies, everyone, that's interesting info, and it looks like it's limited in some countries to negligence, particularly wilful negligence. Though it may vary by country. No, software engineers don't often have the same levels of responsibility. Personally I do have a indemnity insurance of various forms which could pay out in the event I am sued over this sort of thing, but that's because I'm operating as an independent consultant with my own company. It appears, in the UK market, to mostly be understood by all parties (my clients, the insurers, myself) to be a formality, and criminal liability is very far from my mind. I can't think how we would get there.

ZephyrBlu 6y ago

> "If a Structural/Civil Engineer builds a bridge and they sign off on it and it goes down, he/she will go to jail" Fixed. For all intents and purposes, you can still work as an engineer without having to take responsibility for your work. I don't think it's a great system because the person who signs off on it becomes the scapegoat if something goes wrong.

Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
I have replied to another similar comment in this thread.