5 ms·

It's honestly not a surprise. The European market favor smaller car way more than the American one. You just have to see the sheer number of 206, Twingo & Clio

by maeln 6y ago

It's honestly not a surprise. The European market favor smaller car way more than the American one. You just have to see the sheer number of 206, Twingo & Clio on the road. I still see some Tesla, but usually it is a status symbol, people who just want an electric car usually go for the Nissan Leaf or the Renault Zoe.

csunbird 6y ago
Public transport is very good, so you usually do not need a car within the city, a small car is enough for most of the tasks.
bipson 6y ago
That's one explanation that focuses on the differences between European an American markets. But also, the Zoe is is in the affordable range for people looking for an electric car in non-massively-subsidized markets (Norway, Denmark), while VWs and Teslas are rather in the luxury range. The amount of car (utility & status & luxury) I get for Tesla or VW money in e.g. Germany, makes most prospective customers buy either an ICE (looking for a family car), or BMW or Audi SUVs (looking for luxury & status) - unless they are idealists or in search of image polish (business cars bring larger tax benefits for electric cars). Then there are simply not much electric cars on the market that aren't in the Zoe-class in the first place (although several alternatives are bound to hit the market soon), besides very expensive SUVs and Teslas. And the regular e-Golf pricing is simply not competitive, for what you get. So most people buying a Zoe is put very simply a "cheapest price will attract the masses"-phenomenon - given what people are looking for (an electric car, maybe as replacement for the smaller second commuter car).
- maeln 6y ago
  Yes absolutely ! That is why I was also talking about the Tesla has a "status symbol" :) . Tesla are doubly expensive also because they usually fall into the sports cars category and insurance will make you pay way more. Also, you probably need a safe place to park it. It is not true everywhere but I know that where I live, there is places where it would get vandalized pretty quickly.
- csunbird 6y ago
  I seriously can not consider putting 45k Euros myself to a car, when I can buy a mid size sedan or a hatchback for 20k Euros less (unused!).
brnt 6y ago
This. Commute cars are Aygos and Ups, not two ton sedans. The (original) Tesla is one of the largest vehicles you'll see around here, only beaten by the hughest SUVs. And the commute market is where people buy electric, so that doesn't match at all. Anecdatally the only people I know with Teslas are rich enough they have it as one of their cars, as an extra to see what it is all about. Very few buy it instead of their commute box. Here is NL.
- guerby 6y ago
  In the whole 2019 (with a crazy december) Tesla Model 3 was the first car by number of sale (electric or not) https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/08/tesla-model-3-shatters-all-records-in-historic-month-year-in-the-netherlands/ https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/08/tesla-model-3-shatters-... 1 Tesla Model 3 29,922 2 VW Polo 12,920 3 Ford Focus 10,478 4 VW Golf 9,263 Number 2 to 4 are small cars. But Tesla sale number per country just mean Tesla decided to allocate more cars to a specific country, as long as it is production constrained not much information about customer preferences from sales numbers.
  - codfrantic 6y ago
    This was specifically because starting in January this year tax breaks for electric cars were changed considerably for people leasing an electric car, specifically the more expensive ones.
  - koenvdb 6y ago
    Focus and Golf are both similar sizes, I wouldn't say the VW Golf is a small car. (Nor would I say that about the new Polo, it's actually quite big)
    - mcv 6y ago
      Back in the 1980s I considered the VW Golf a small car, but not anymore. Not sure if it's gotten larger since then, or my view of a small car has shrunk. But I don't think the Tesla 3 is that much larger than a Golf.
    - 6y ago
namdnay 6y ago
One of the reasons for that is that cars are cheap in the USA, in the absolute and even more relative to incomes. The cheapest RWD model 3 starts at 50k euros - that's unaffordable for 99% of french families. To give a very simplified but realistic stereotype: An upper-middle class family od two software engineers + 2 children will probably have one "premium" family car for sir (e.g. VW Golf or 3008) and one city car for madam (e.g. Aygo or Twingo)
- bitexploder 6y ago
  Why are they so expensive in Europe? Are cars taxed to discourage their purchase? Or does it truly cost more for a car in Europe somehow?
  - em500 6y ago
    A new Toyota Corolla in the Netherlands costs around €25k, of which around 11k are taxes (5k sales tax plus 6k vehicle tax). Gas price at the pump are €1.67/L (= €6.32/gallon), of which almost half are (sales+excise) taxes. Our vaunted public services don't come cheap.
  - namdnay 6y ago
    I'm really not sure. There's VAT which is around 20%ish, maybe that's lower in the US? And then registration + carbon taxes cost on top, but I didn't even include that in the price It's also just that middle-class and higher incomes are much lower here than in the US + property is on average much more expensive. so people don't have as much disposable income to burn on cars
    - xyzzyz 6y ago
      Many countries also have specific taxes based on engine size and emissions. For example, for 2020 Ford Explorer, a relatively popular SUV in the US (often a police car), you’d pay something like 12k EUR of extra pollution tax in France at purchase.
    - mytailorisrich 6y ago
Markoff 6y ago
It's not surprise to me it's small car, but that is Renault. I would expect Nissan, Hyundai or Toyota taking the top spots, though by my anecdotal experience I see most often BMW i3.
thatfrenchguy 6y ago
Gas is expensive in the EU and cheap in the US, that’s why.

by maeln 6y ago

csunbird 6y ago

Public transport is very good, so you usually do not need a car within the city, a small car is enough for most of the tasks.

bipson 6y ago

That's one explanation that focuses on the differences between European an American markets. But also, the Zoe is is in the affordable range for people looking for an electric car in non-massively-subsidized markets (Norway, Denmark), while VWs and Teslas are rather in the luxury range. The amount of car (utility & status & luxury) I get for Tesla or VW money in e.g. Germany, makes most prospective customers buy either an ICE (looking for a family car), or BMW or Audi SUVs (looking for luxury & status) - unless they are idealists or in search of image polish (business cars bring larger tax benefits for electric cars). Then there are simply not much electric cars on the market that aren't in the Zoe-class in the first place (although several alternatives are bound to hit the market soon), besides very expensive SUVs and Teslas. And the regular e-Golf pricing is simply not competitive, for what you get. So most people buying a Zoe is put very simply a "cheapest price will attract the masses"-phenomenon - given what people are looking for (an electric car, maybe as replacement for the smaller second commuter car).

maeln 6y ago
Yes absolutely ! That is why I was also talking about the Tesla has a "status symbol" :) . Tesla are doubly expensive also because they usually fall into the sports cars category and insurance will make you pay way more. Also, you probably need a safe place to park it. It is not true everywhere but I know that where I live, there is places where it would get vandalized pretty quickly.
csunbird 6y ago
I seriously can not consider putting 45k Euros myself to a car, when I can buy a mid size sedan or a hatchback for 20k Euros less (unused!).

brnt 6y ago

This. Commute cars are Aygos and Ups, not two ton sedans. The (original) Tesla is one of the largest vehicles you'll see around here, only beaten by the hughest SUVs. And the commute market is where people buy electric, so that doesn't match at all. Anecdatally the only people I know with Teslas are rich enough they have it as one of their cars, as an extra to see what it is all about. Very few buy it instead of their commute box. Here is NL.

guerby 6y ago
In the whole 2019 (with a crazy december) Tesla Model 3 was the first car by number of sale (electric or not) https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/08/tesla-model-3-shatters-all-records-in-historic-month-year-in-the-netherlands/ https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/08/tesla-model-3-shatters-... 1 Tesla Model 3 29,922 2 VW Polo 12,920 3 Ford Focus 10,478 4 VW Golf 9,263 Number 2 to 4 are small cars. But Tesla sale number per country just mean Tesla decided to allocate more cars to a specific country, as long as it is production constrained not much information about customer preferences from sales numbers.
- codfrantic 6y ago
  This was specifically because starting in January this year tax breaks for electric cars were changed considerably for people leasing an electric car, specifically the more expensive ones.
- koenvdb 6y ago
  Focus and Golf are both similar sizes, I wouldn't say the VW Golf is a small car. (Nor would I say that about the new Polo, it's actually quite big)
  - mcv 6y ago
    Back in the 1980s I considered the VW Golf a small car, but not anymore. Not sure if it's gotten larger since then, or my view of a small car has shrunk. But I don't think the Tesla 3 is that much larger than a Golf.
  - 6y ago

namdnay 6y ago

One of the reasons for that is that cars are cheap in the USA, in the absolute and even more relative to incomes. The cheapest RWD model 3 starts at 50k euros - that's unaffordable for 99% of french families. To give a very simplified but realistic stereotype: An upper-middle class family od two software engineers + 2 children will probably have one "premium" family car for sir (e.g. VW Golf or 3008) and one city car for madam (e.g. Aygo or Twingo)

bitexploder 6y ago
Why are they so expensive in Europe? Are cars taxed to discourage their purchase? Or does it truly cost more for a car in Europe somehow?
- em500 6y ago
  A new Toyota Corolla in the Netherlands costs around €25k, of which around 11k are taxes (5k sales tax plus 6k vehicle tax). Gas price at the pump are €1.67/L (= €6.32/gallon), of which almost half are (sales+excise) taxes. Our vaunted public services don't come cheap.
- namdnay 6y ago
  I'm really not sure. There's VAT which is around 20%ish, maybe that's lower in the US? And then registration + carbon taxes cost on top, but I didn't even include that in the price It's also just that middle-class and higher incomes are much lower here than in the US + property is on average much more expensive. so people don't have as much disposable income to burn on cars
  - xyzzyz 6y ago
    Many countries also have specific taxes based on engine size and emissions. For example, for 2020 Ford Explorer, a relatively popular SUV in the US (often a police car), you’d pay something like 12k EUR of extra pollution tax in France at purchase.
  - mytailorisrich 6y ago

Markoff 6y ago

It's not surprise to me it's small car, but that is Renault. I would expect Nissan, Hyundai or Toyota taking the top spots, though by my anecdotal experience I see most often BMW i3.

thatfrenchguy 6y ago

Gas is expensive in the EU and cheap in the US, that’s why.