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While technologically cool, I think Japan could benefit from young immigrants from different parts of the world to solve their human capital problem. This benef

While technologically cool, I think Japan could benefit from young immigrants from different parts of the world to solve their human capital problem. This benefits everybody.

fearingreprisal 6y ago
I absolutely disagree. The robots pose none of the challenges that immigrants from different parts of the world bring with them, while fulfilling the same labour force requirement. In my opinion, the robots are a better investment all over.
- totetsu 6y ago
  I'm sure robots can also be made to keep up the life of society and culture on the weekend too.
- baybal2 6y ago
  Why do you disagree? What are the "challenges" you suggest?
  - fearingreprisal 6y ago
    I support Japan's right to keep their distinctly Japanese culture and way of life intact indefinitely. I live in one of the more multicultural cities in the Western world. I have seen little evidence to suggest that even second and third generation immigrants assimilate into the host culture to a more than superficial degree. I have seen plenty of evidence to the contrary, which I will not list here due to the risk of this being mistaken as malice on my behalf. I harbour no malice towards other ethnicities or nationalities. The recent wave of immigration, including a large influx of refugees from the Middle East and North Africa, to Western Europe has demonstrated many of the challenges I speak of. There have been numerous interviews, news features and articles which have demonstrated that the new immigrants are largely ambivalent, often outright hostile towards the Western culture and way of life. An objective look at America's present situation without any prejudice could very well prompt an outsider to take the view that the experiment of multiculturalism in the West is not working, or at least not working well. The American left and right wing ostensibly seem to agree on this fact, based upon their media. Continuing the very generous American example, African-Americans have largely not assimilated into the wider American culture since their emancipation. From my outsider perspective, it appears that they constitute their own distinct culture. Their own media portrays them as suspicious, if not again outright hostile, or at best ambivalent towards the wider White American society. If Japan were to look objectively on at the Western world undergoing these challenges, why would they come to the conclusion that they would benefit from multiculturalism, when the abundance of evidence points to the contrary? Would they presume to think that they could make this experiment work, when it hasn't worked demonstrably well anywhere else?
    - bryanlarsen 6y ago
      > I have seen little evidence to suggest that even second and third generation immigrants assimilate into the host culture to a more than superficial degree. Works great here in Canada. My neighbors are Lebanese, Iranian (although he calls himself Persian), Polish and Brazilian. All very Canadian, which is not a synonym for assimilated.
    - akiselev 6y ago
      > I live in one of the more multicultural cities in the Western world. I have seen little evidence to suggest that even second and third generation immigrants assimilate into the host culture more than superficially. I have seen plenty of evidence to the contrary, which I will not list here due to it being tangential and often mistaken for malice. What city do you live in, exactly? I live in Los Angeles - one of several metropolises that I've lived in on several continents - and the vast majority of second and third generation immigrants I've met have had no trouble assimilating into their host culture. As an immigrant, in fact, I have struggled to find any zero or first generation immigrants that do not bemoan that their offspring are completely detached from their culture. They consider themselves lucky if their grandkids still speak their "native" tongue at a primary school level. What I have seen everywhere, however, is a lot of small minded people who are only capable of differentiating each other by superficial ethnic stereotypes, dominated by skin color and religion. They've always got "plenty of evidence" that they "will not list here due to it being tangential and often mistaken for malice." My apologies if I've got the wrong impression, but perhaps your understanding and methods of "assimilation" are fundamentally flawed.
      - fearingreprisal 6y ago
        > What city do you live in, exactly? I don't want to reveal any information about my personal life. However my post does give away some clues about this. I understand that I might not be able to make convincing anecdotal arguments without revealing this fact. Unfortunately however, I predict people are either going to immediately agree with my post, or never believe. I don't think there's any point in this discussion other than the joy of writing. > They consider themselves lucky if their grandkids still speak their "native" tongue at a primary school level Not all populations approach assimilating into the host society in the same manner. For the purposes of my argument I'll limit the scope of the term 'assimilation' to 'Adoption of the host country's core values'. In my city large large immigrant enclaves have developed over the last few decades to the exclusion of even the host country's culture. You could walk through large suburbs in my city and believe you were in a very cosmopolitan area of Bangladesh or Pakistan. Anecdotally, many sources report that the second generation of immigrants from the Middle East have become more conservative than the first. Adopting much a much more conservative form of Islam, which many view as fundamentally incompatible with Western democracy. Analysis of available statistics from a recent survey on support of same-sex marriage revealed that immigrant communities were among the least likely to support gay rights. This is congruent with the commonly held view that women's rights and LGBT rights do not enjoy a similar level of support within the Islamic diaspora to that of wider Western society. I could go on... Multiculturalism is fine at the scale of a football team. The rules of football are so simple they can be communicated non-verbally. However, extrapolate the problem to the scale of organising society and you'll find that people have fundamental disagreements that simply fail to be reconciled. > What I have seen everywhere, however, is a lot of small minded people who are... My apologies if I've got the wrong impression..." To me, this subtle ad-hominem undermines your post. To me this simply reads as "People who disagree with my world view are small minded." I have made no such insult towards you. You haven't done anything to actually challenge my ( omitted ) definition of 'assimilation', save to assert that my disagreeing with your overall views reveals that it must be "flawed" somehow.
agustif 6y ago
I mean immigrants are always second-class citizens in japan, I don't see how they would prefer immigrants to robots over there...
- harpratap 6y ago
  > immigrants are always second-class citizens That is true for every country on the planet.
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    Indeed, that is the entire point of "citizen" status.
    - harpratap 6y ago
      I don't think you understood that statement. It means you'll never be treated like "one of us" regardless of your passport and visa status.
- jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
  People are snarking you but this is absolutely true. I know multiple people that went over in their 20s. All but one came back within 10 years. People are very polite, but it's also clear there's a sort of invisible force field always around you that drastically limits your professional options beyond english translation/tutoring work. Forming a social network is nearly impossible. One of my friends born there did his undergrad and masters in aerospace engineering in the US as there's a lot more programs and jobs here. When he went back due to family obligations he discovered he wouldn't be able to get a job beyond translating manuals. He's been told over and over again that if he had to leave Japan for school then clearly something must be wrong with him. So besides the undercurrent of racism, similar problems are found by native born citizens that don't conform to these expectations.
dageshi 6y ago
This argument can be made about every technological advancement ever made. "Don't fix it with technology, just throw more people at it". That isn't how you make progress and it doesn't benefit everybody it just encourages stagnation.
- fennecfoxen 6y ago
  It sure has helped the rest of the world conquer poverty. That doesn’t seem like stagnation to me. The more we have immigrants stocking supermarket shelves and constructing infrastructure the more we can focus our high end R&D on things like biotech, medicine, space, and the like. That’s economics; comparative advantage is real.
  - dageshi 6y ago
    That's not what OP is arguing. He appears to be arguing that technological solutions should not be tried in cases where immigration can solve the problem. If Japan can automate many of these things they will end up being leagues ahead of those who solved it with immigration and will end up selling the solutions to the rest of the world.
    - fennecfoxen 6y ago
      But why should they focus on solving "problems immigration can solve" as opposed to "problems immigration cannot solve?" You could end up leagues ahead of the rest of the world in something like biotech or materials sciences. There's no intrinsic gain to be had by weighting the problem space.
- techie128 6y ago
  You make a good point. I did not say that we should solve all problems via immigration. There are classes of problems that immigrants can’t solve. I’m just saying we should prioritize those problems above such problems. Examples include, researching cures for incurable illnesses such as cancer, HIV/AIDS, prosthetics to solve blindness, deafness, artificial limbs, etc. I feel automation can benefit various problem classes without generating mass unemployment.
imtringued 6y ago
How is that innovative? Everyone is importing immigrants like there is no tomorrow. It's actually interesting how Japan is choosing a less optimal strategy that forces them to innovate or get left behind. If it pays off they will be leaders in robotics.
- hungryhobo 6y ago
  pretty sure they already are
Tade0 6y ago
We're in for an... immigrant shortage problem, however unbelievable that may sound. China alone could absorb all that workforce and still have room for more given that their fertility rate has been below replacement for close to 30 years now.
- vidarh 6y ago
  Last I checked numbers I believe China's population is expected to start declining within something like the next ten years... It will be very interesting to see how that affects both China and the world...
fiblye 6y ago
More countries are on track to have declining populations than there are countries that have anywhere near enough people to export a labor class to do hard manual labor around the world. In fifty years, the countries above the replacement rate will be slim and mostly down to a few African countries. Countries relying on immigration are going to get strangled and fall behind those that found ways to continue to develop themselves.
johnwalkr 6y ago
Japan is one of the easiest countries for skilled people to immigrate to. No quota, no requirement to try to hire locally first, fast-track visa (few weeks), as little as 1 year to get permanent residency. http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/newimmiact_3/en/index.html http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/newimmiact_3/en/index.html
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- 0xffff2 6y ago
  Do construction trades count as "skilled people" in the immigration context in Japan? Usually when I hear "skilled" in that context I think of doctors and PhD researchers.
  - johnwalkr 6y ago
    Not for the visa I linked but there are a lot of foreigners working construction and assembly lines on other visa types. I think it’s generally managed by some kind of labour company and the jobs are mostly low wage. I wanted to double check so I googled it and found this, looks like there’s new visas for things like construction: https://www.mofa.go.jp/files/000459527.pdf https://www.mofa.go.jp/files/000459527.pdf

While technologically cool, I think Japan could benefit from young immigrants from different parts of the world to solve their human capital problem. This benefits everybody.

fearingreprisal 6y ago

I absolutely disagree. The robots pose none of the challenges that immigrants from different parts of the world bring with them, while fulfilling the same labour force requirement. In my opinion, the robots are a better investment all over.

totetsu 6y ago
I'm sure robots can also be made to keep up the life of society and culture on the weekend too.
baybal2 6y ago
Why do you disagree? What are the "challenges" you suggest?
- fearingreprisal 6y ago
  I support Japan's right to keep their distinctly Japanese culture and way of life intact indefinitely. I live in one of the more multicultural cities in the Western world. I have seen little evidence to suggest that even second and third generation immigrants assimilate into the host culture to a more than superficial degree. I have seen plenty of evidence to the contrary, which I will not list here due to the risk of this being mistaken as malice on my behalf. I harbour no malice towards other ethnicities or nationalities. The recent wave of immigration, including a large influx of refugees from the Middle East and North Africa, to Western Europe has demonstrated many of the challenges I speak of. There have been numerous interviews, news features and articles which have demonstrated that the new immigrants are largely ambivalent, often outright hostile towards the Western culture and way of life. An objective look at America's present situation without any prejudice could very well prompt an outsider to take the view that the experiment of multiculturalism in the West is not working, or at least not working well. The American left and right wing ostensibly seem to agree on this fact, based upon their media. Continuing the very generous American example, African-Americans have largely not assimilated into the wider American culture since their emancipation. From my outsider perspective, it appears that they constitute their own distinct culture. Their own media portrays them as suspicious, if not again outright hostile, or at best ambivalent towards the wider White American society. If Japan were to look objectively on at the Western world undergoing these challenges, why would they come to the conclusion that they would benefit from multiculturalism, when the abundance of evidence points to the contrary? Would they presume to think that they could make this experiment work, when it hasn't worked demonstrably well anywhere else?
  - bryanlarsen 6y ago
    > I have seen little evidence to suggest that even second and third generation immigrants assimilate into the host culture to a more than superficial degree. Works great here in Canada. My neighbors are Lebanese, Iranian (although he calls himself Persian), Polish and Brazilian. All very Canadian, which is not a synonym for assimilated.
  - akiselev 6y ago
    > I live in one of the more multicultural cities in the Western world. I have seen little evidence to suggest that even second and third generation immigrants assimilate into the host culture more than superficially. I have seen plenty of evidence to the contrary, which I will not list here due to it being tangential and often mistaken for malice. What city do you live in, exactly? I live in Los Angeles - one of several metropolises that I've lived in on several continents - and the vast majority of second and third generation immigrants I've met have had no trouble assimilating into their host culture. As an immigrant, in fact, I have struggled to find any zero or first generation immigrants that do not bemoan that their offspring are completely detached from their culture. They consider themselves lucky if their grandkids still speak their "native" tongue at a primary school level. What I have seen everywhere, however, is a lot of small minded people who are only capable of differentiating each other by superficial ethnic stereotypes, dominated by skin color and religion. They've always got "plenty of evidence" that they "will not list here due to it being tangential and often mistaken for malice." My apologies if I've got the wrong impression, but perhaps your understanding and methods of "assimilation" are fundamentally flawed.
    - fearingreprisal 6y ago
      > What city do you live in, exactly? I don't want to reveal any information about my personal life. However my post does give away some clues about this. I understand that I might not be able to make convincing anecdotal arguments without revealing this fact. Unfortunately however, I predict people are either going to immediately agree with my post, or never believe. I don't think there's any point in this discussion other than the joy of writing. > They consider themselves lucky if their grandkids still speak their "native" tongue at a primary school level Not all populations approach assimilating into the host society in the same manner. For the purposes of my argument I'll limit the scope of the term 'assimilation' to 'Adoption of the host country's core values'. In my city large large immigrant enclaves have developed over the last few decades to the exclusion of even the host country's culture. You could walk through large suburbs in my city and believe you were in a very cosmopolitan area of Bangladesh or Pakistan. Anecdotally, many sources report that the second generation of immigrants from the Middle East have become more conservative than the first. Adopting much a much more conservative form of Islam, which many view as fundamentally incompatible with Western democracy. Analysis of available statistics from a recent survey on support of same-sex marriage revealed that immigrant communities were among the least likely to support gay rights. This is congruent with the commonly held view that women's rights and LGBT rights do not enjoy a similar level of support within the Islamic diaspora to that of wider Western society. I could go on... Multiculturalism is fine at the scale of a football team. The rules of football are so simple they can be communicated non-verbally. However, extrapolate the problem to the scale of organising society and you'll find that people have fundamental disagreements that simply fail to be reconciled. > What I have seen everywhere, however, is a lot of small minded people who are... My apologies if I've got the wrong impression..." To me, this subtle ad-hominem undermines your post. To me this simply reads as "People who disagree with my world view are small minded." I have made no such insult towards you. You haven't done anything to actually challenge my ( omitted ) definition of 'assimilation', save to assert that my disagreeing with your overall views reveals that it must be "flawed" somehow.

agustif 6y ago

I mean immigrants are always second-class citizens in japan, I don't see how they would prefer immigrants to robots over there...

harpratap 6y ago
> immigrants are always second-class citizens That is true for every country on the planet.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  Indeed, that is the entire point of "citizen" status.
  - harpratap 6y ago
    I don't think you understood that statement. It means you'll never be treated like "one of us" regardless of your passport and visa status.
jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
People are snarking you but this is absolutely true. I know multiple people that went over in their 20s. All but one came back within 10 years. People are very polite, but it's also clear there's a sort of invisible force field always around you that drastically limits your professional options beyond english translation/tutoring work. Forming a social network is nearly impossible. One of my friends born there did his undergrad and masters in aerospace engineering in the US as there's a lot more programs and jobs here. When he went back due to family obligations he discovered he wouldn't be able to get a job beyond translating manuals. He's been told over and over again that if he had to leave Japan for school then clearly something must be wrong with him. So besides the undercurrent of racism, similar problems are found by native born citizens that don't conform to these expectations.

dageshi 6y ago

This argument can be made about every technological advancement ever made. "Don't fix it with technology, just throw more people at it". That isn't how you make progress and it doesn't benefit everybody it just encourages stagnation.

fennecfoxen 6y ago
It sure has helped the rest of the world conquer poverty. That doesn’t seem like stagnation to me. The more we have immigrants stocking supermarket shelves and constructing infrastructure the more we can focus our high end R&D on things like biotech, medicine, space, and the like. That’s economics; comparative advantage is real.
- dageshi 6y ago
  That's not what OP is arguing. He appears to be arguing that technological solutions should not be tried in cases where immigration can solve the problem. If Japan can automate many of these things they will end up being leagues ahead of those who solved it with immigration and will end up selling the solutions to the rest of the world.
  - fennecfoxen 6y ago
    But why should they focus on solving "problems immigration can solve" as opposed to "problems immigration cannot solve?" You could end up leagues ahead of the rest of the world in something like biotech or materials sciences. There's no intrinsic gain to be had by weighting the problem space.
techie128 6y ago
You make a good point. I did not say that we should solve all problems via immigration. There are classes of problems that immigrants can’t solve. I’m just saying we should prioritize those problems above such problems. Examples include, researching cures for incurable illnesses such as cancer, HIV/AIDS, prosthetics to solve blindness, deafness, artificial limbs, etc. I feel automation can benefit various problem classes without generating mass unemployment.

imtringued 6y ago

How is that innovative? Everyone is importing immigrants like there is no tomorrow. It's actually interesting how Japan is choosing a less optimal strategy that forces them to innovate or get left behind. If it pays off they will be leaders in robotics.

hungryhobo 6y ago
pretty sure they already are

Tade0 6y ago

We're in for an... immigrant shortage problem, however unbelievable that may sound. China alone could absorb all that workforce and still have room for more given that their fertility rate has been below replacement for close to 30 years now.

vidarh 6y ago
Last I checked numbers I believe China's population is expected to start declining within something like the next ten years... It will be very interesting to see how that affects both China and the world...

fiblye 6y ago

More countries are on track to have declining populations than there are countries that have anywhere near enough people to export a labor class to do hard manual labor around the world. In fifty years, the countries above the replacement rate will be slim and mostly down to a few African countries. Countries relying on immigration are going to get strangled and fall behind those that found ways to continue to develop themselves.

johnwalkr 6y ago

Japan is one of the easiest countries for skilled people to immigrate to. No quota, no requirement to try to hire locally first, fast-track visa (few weeks), as little as 1 year to get permanent residency. http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/newimmiact_3/en/index.html http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/newimmiact_3/en/index.html

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
0xffff2 6y ago
Do construction trades count as "skilled people" in the immigration context in Japan? Usually when I hear "skilled" in that context I think of doctors and PhD researchers.
- johnwalkr 6y ago
  Not for the visa I linked but there are a lot of foreigners working construction and assembly lines on other visa types. I think it’s generally managed by some kind of labour company and the jobs are mostly low wage. I wanted to double check so I googled it and found this, looks like there’s new visas for things like construction: https://www.mofa.go.jp/files/000459527.pdf https://www.mofa.go.jp/files/000459527.pdf